GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #4

[nikb]

I don't think that it's that unlikely that the same group that found the vehicle also noticed JH walking down the street. I'm assuming that when the groups were assigned to search they were doing a grid search and were assigned a particular area. They had been out looking all day and noticed their friend out walking, who doesn't stop to pick up a friend who is walking down the street?

I guess it doesn't seem that strange to me because even though I lived in a city of 130k I would inadvertently run into someone I knew almost every where I went. My husband was astonished. He had lived in the city for 6 years longer than I had when we got married, but I was always running into people we knew.

lol sorry for the quick O/T but my husband is like that too! He runs into people he knows or knew long ago everywhere including a vacation to Disneyland, several different times on trips to Tahoe, and even on a trip to Hawaii! Locally too, of course. I thought he was pulling my leg with the Hawaii one and he thought he was maybe losing his mind and mis-identified the person, until they waved and said "oh my gosh, (his name), Hi!! Can't believe we're in Hawaii at the same time."

 

[nikb]

<snipped for space>
I am happy to hear alternate viewpoints, but trust me when I say you’ll not convince me – at this point – that utility vehicle is nuthin’. You can laugh at me if I’m proven wrong. I’m old – I can take it!

Thanks for a great post! Re: the utility vehicle, I agree with you. If that parking lot is as busy as has been reported by locals, it just makes no sense to me that the only other vehicles described in detail were the red truck and white "utility vehicle" whatever that is. And LE's already talked to the guy in the red truck AFAIK.

ETA: makes no sense to me who only those two would be described IF those vehicles aren't significant somehow.

 

[nikb]

That's what I wonder too. Maybe he turned his T Shirt/jacket/whatever inside out when he exited the vehicle and got some clothes elsewhere that day before being picked up at 6pm by the friends. Maybe he had some change of clothes with him (unlikely), maybe there were by sheer luck some of Clint's clothes in the vehicle, which he then used. Maybe he didn't get much blood on him and was able to hide it. Or maybe someone helped him, and that person later contacted LE, providing them with the first clue which prompted the interviews and surveillance on Holt. Maybe they are keeping this quiet because that person was scared?

More than once I've wondered if he actually went into Walmart and picked up some new clothes. It seems unlikely and IMO he'd have had to at least take off some of his outer layers of clothing and/or clean himself up some, but it doesn't seem completely outside of the realm of possibility. It could help explain those few missing minutes? If someone can get in and out of Walmart that quick they deserve some sort of award, but I would think it's possible.

 

[peace9274]

More than once I've wondered if he actually went into Walmart and picked up some new clothes. It seems unlikely and IMO he'd have had to at least take off some of his outer layers of clothing and/or clean himself up some, but it doesn't seem completely outside of the realm of possibility.
It could help explain those few missing minutes?
If someone can get in and out of Walmart that quick they deserve some sort of award, but I would think it's possible.

BBM
And possibly explain why he used the credit card at places other than the gas stations.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

On the contrary, there are quite a few faiths that baptize adults. If one is of the Christian faith that believes in Jesus as their personal savior, then once they profess that, they are usually baptized. Also, if one has been raised in any other faith, and joins say, a Methodist or Baptist church, they are baptized also.
Baptism is not just for babies. In my faith they call that dedicating a child, which simply means that you as parents agree to raise your child in the Christian faith and set a good example for them.

True; and don't forget the Mormons (LDS), who also baptize at whatever age one joins their faith.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

More than once I've wondered if he actually went into Walmart and picked up some new clothes. It seems unlikely and IMO he'd have had to at least take off some of his outer layers of clothing and/or clean himself up some, but it doesn't seem completely outside of the realm of possibility. It could help explain those few missing minutes? If someone can get in and out of Walmart that quick they deserve some sort of award, but I would think it's possible.

But why would he go into a hugely populated, surveillance-videoed Walmart right after a bloody murder and buy clothes, when he could swing by his neighborhood, park the van somewhere hidden, walk, and get a free change of clothing at his empty apartment?

And I'm not sure how that explains the missing minutes of videotape, unless you're thinking the part of him getting out of the car and walking in to Walmart was redacted.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Re: not having blood all over him. What if he covered her with some of the table linen before he shot her? That would certainly cut down on the blood spray/spatter.

The linens then would be full of holes. I highly doubt this scenario, personally.

 

[Tennlyn]

This is the first I've heard that JH was scheduled to go to work at 6 AM that morning (yes, it's probably in the pdf). Thank you!

Why would a guy planning on abducting, assaulting, and murdering the woman he's had a crush on have anything but his gun(s), and maybe a change of clothes in a backpack he took that morning? (And the screwdriver.)

The backpack contents don't 'fit' with the obviously pre-planned events.

I wondered if JH wasn't in the habit of ALWAYS keeping his electronics with him in the backpack so his wife didn't stumble across their contents. The affadavit for search warrant even describes how secretive folks are when it comes to their child *advertiser censored*. What better place to keep his secrets than with him?

MOO or whatever it is y'all say!

 

[nikb]

But why would he go into a hugely populated, surveillance-videoed Walmart right after a bloody murder and buy clothes, when he could swing by his neighborhood, park the van somewhere hidden, walk, and get a free change of clothing at his empty apartment?

And I'm not sure how that explains the missing minutes of videotape, unless you're thinking the part of him getting out of the car and walking in to Walmart was redacted.

Oh I agree - it doesn't make much sense at all! But so much of what he did makes no sense, it's just a thought that's crossed my mind a few times.

re: the missing minutes of video tape, what I was thinking is maybe (and I know this might be a stretch) LE has him walking into or inside the store on tape but it hasn't been released.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

<modsnip>

I would find this suspect. This does not at all describe the 'shy guy' that was 'bullied' by some kids in school (per published accounts of a girl who was a good friend):

Steve Mayes, The Oregonian By Steve Mayes, The Oregonian
on October 22, 2012 at 6:55 PM, updated October 22, 2012 at 11:14 PM


<snipped>

Madaline Doherty, another former classmate of Holt, said he was bullied during high school.

"Some other kids would knock his books down, push him into walls or trip him," said Doherty, 25. "It was pretty bad."

She said she was good friends with Holt up until 3rd grade, when her family moved to Grants Pass. She moved back to Gresham in 6th grade, but the two never rekindled their friendship, she said.

"I have nothing but good memories of Jonathan as a kid," Doherty said. "It's just sad that he is accused of this."

http://www.oregonlive.com/gresham/index.ssf/2012/10/whitney_heichel_was_shot_four.html

NOBODY bullies the high school football star.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Oh I agree - it doesn't make much sense at all! But so much of what he did makes no sense, it's just a thought that's crossed my mind a few times.

re: the missing minutes of video tape, what I was thinking is maybe (and I know this might be a stretch) LE has him walking into or inside the store on tape but it hasn't been released.

There's logical/logistical sense, and there's 'action that doesn't make sense by a perp who's not thinking clearly.' This, I believe, would fit both categories, making me doubt it would've happened.

Re: the second part; that's a valid consideration--but then, why would LE go to all the bother of straining to try to 'discover' who the perp was who was driving in the grainy videos, and complaining that a tree blocked their view of him at Walmart?

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

I wondered if JH wasn't in the habit of ALWAYS keeping his electronics with him in the backpack so his wife didn't stumble across their contents. The affadavit for search warrant even describes how secretive folks are when it comes to their child *advertiser censored*. What better place to keep his secrets than with him?

MOO or whatever it is y'all say!

"MOO or whatever it is y'all say!"--love it, lol.

That's true...but then we have the problem that *advertiser censored* was found on Amanda's computer. Why, if he was naturally going to be secretive about it (and they are--we've had this in our family tree)--would he have it on Amanda's computer? Would defeat the purpose of hauling around his laptops all day, if it was just to hide it from her.

This is one of about 2 dozen things about this case that does not make sense to me...and why I think it's absurd. (MOO or whatever it is y'all say. )

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

But so much of what he did makes no sense...

So much of what he SAID he did makes no sense. Which is why I don't believe things happened the way they reportedly did, even if what he said is in police affadavit. That only tells us what he told them; it doesn't necessarily tell us what actually went on that day.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

The thing that stands out to me and bothers me about this is that it's obvious he has to be lying in some of that testimony to police; but why would he lie to throw himself under the bus? Not only concerning the murder, but also offering up, unprompted, the theft of the iphone and the child *advertiser censored*?

Perps who lie will do so to save their own skin. That is a big, red flag.

MOO, y'all.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

(double post)

 

[eyes2lookatu]

"MOO or whatever it is y'all say!"--love it, lol.

That's true...but then we have the problem that *advertiser censored* was found on Amanda's computer. Why, if he was naturally going to be secretive about it (and they are--we've had this in our family tree)--would he have it on Amanda's computer? Would defeat the purpose of hauling around his laptops all day, if it was just to hide it from her.

This is one of about 2 dozen things about this case that does not make sense to me...and why I think it's absurd. (MOO or whatever it is y'all say. )

Was there actual *advertiser censored* found on her computer? I know they seized it and AH stated to the police that JH used her computer, but I don't think I realized that there was actual *advertiser censored* on her computer... and with that being said, what type of *advertiser censored*? MOO I'd think he'd keep the illegal kiddie *advertiser censored* on his own devices and use her computer for other reasons, or perhaps more "acceptable" *advertiser censored* that can be easily accessed.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Snipped

I'm thinking if he had the foresight to bring a loaded gun with the *possible* intention of killing her, and we know he had a backpack with him, he probably had a change of clothes in his backpack and discarded the bloody clothes somewhere they haven't discovered yet, or if they have discovered them, chose not to put that in the affidavit.

Basically what ImWithTheBand said.

In the affidavit, AH tells LE what she thinks she remembers JH wearing when the Judd's returned him to their apartment after finding him walking on the street. She thought he was wearing a sweatshirt I believe and some kind of t-shirt underneath but couldn't remember exactly which one. She did remember he was wearing the black and green shoes (which he tried to get rid of in a field later on). Regardless, I'm sure if the Judd's had seen blood on him when they picked him up or if AH saw some on him when he got home at almost 7pm that night, they would have definitely said something to LE about it.

JMO

She remembers a lot more than I do when my husband leaves for work (hah, esp. if he left at 5:15 to get to his job which was 45 minutes away!) Mine leaves that early for business trips and even if he wakes me with a kiss, my eyes don't open.

Just an observation; no inference attached to it.

 

[Ronso]

I agree it makes no sense.

Again, I'm going to make a comparison to the Matthew Hoffman case here. He admitted to where he put the bodies, and certain things were true about his timeline. However, he lied about other things even though he threw himself under the bus. He lied about how he treated his kidnapped victim. He lied about it being a robbery gone bad (he had no way to transport stolen goods, so that right there tells me it wasn't meant to be a robbery at all).

It just doesn't make sense in our heads, but in their head, maybe it DOES make sense.

I think maybe he offered up information he figured they'd find anyways. I know of some people who are cornered that just blab every little transgression, or every little detail that doesn't need to be said, but that's how they are under pressure. Maybe he is the same type of person. Maybe under pressure, he just keeps talking and digging his own hole.

 

[masyann]

I just cannot see him going into Walmart to buy cloths although it may be possible. Also I know when we lived in Alaska and my husband went hunting and it was on a island where they would boat or fly in there were no showers and he would be out for several days. Get deer and have blood on him, but he dressed in layers so as each layer came off you could not see dirt grime and deer blood.
Granted he did not shoot the deer at close range but did have to pack it sometimes a couple miles. So my point is if he had two t shirts on and a hoody and a jacket (The one the robbers supposedly took) he could have gotten rid of those top items. If I recall correctly he had on black sweat pants on and you may not be able to see blood on those. and shoes could be easily washed lets say at a gas station bathroom? MOO

 

[Melancholy]

Well, one thing I think we can all agree on is that this tragedy has touched many MANY lives, and affected many people, both in the town of Gresham and around the country.

I plan to follow this story as NEW EVIDENCE comes available, and will be checking in here on the thread sporadically.

However, as someone else pointed out, there's a lot of 'obtuse' thinking here, and with nothing 'new' to go on, I find myself getting too wrapped up in trying to understand some here and thier thinking (even PM's of 'scenarios' from people that I find positively LUDICROUS).

This isn't Criminal Minds or Law & Order, and some of the things people here seem to be grasping at, reading between the lines, etc... with no tangible 'evidence' that I have seen, just speculation. Definitely nothing that is as REMOTELY convincing as the actual evidence we have been made aware of.

There's talk of most of us 'forcing the evidence to fit the obvious conclusion' but I see only people trying to 'force the evidence to be lacking, looking for what isn't likely there'.

Could I be wrong in thinking JH acted alone, confessed to his crime, and should now face justice? I suppose so...but I don't believe I am. Still yet...I feel like a majority on the thread are operating on the facts presented and the obvious conclusions...and some want a good juicy 'twist' and outlandish mystery to solve...

Blame CH
Blame AH
Blame LE
Blame JW

because you can, in your mind, and that's definitely your right and a-okay, no judgement from me whatsoever (for realsy!!) but I personally am going to break away from this thread on a regular daily basis because I feel emotionally attached to this case and seeing these insinuations just cause me upset and stress.

I'll check back in in a few days (If I can exercise the self control hahahaha )

Wish everyone the best-- EVERYONE, even those of you I don't agree with