GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #5

[Xavier]

I am curious why JH told LE that he "threw the cell phone into the lake" -- but after confessing Friday, and even taking LE to the crime scene that night, he didn't say also, "and here's the phone, which I didn't throw into the lake, but instead dropped at the telephone pole." That berm that the telephone pole is on is very, very small (see picture in previous pages), and the cell phone could easily have been pointed out that night while the officer was copying down the numbers on the two strips stapled to the pole. Instead, JH said nothing about the phone. LE returned the next morning to conduct the search -- and found it right there near the pole. In clear sight of anyone who drove onto the turnout. So...

1) why did he get rid of the phone in the first place?
2) if he thought it was evidence that needed to 'disappear' why would he drop it right there at the pole instead of pitching it into the woods across the street?
3) why would he tell LE he "threw it in the lake" when there is no lake even visible at that location anymore?

IMO I think Holt's family, employers, friends were calling him on his cell phone and did'nt want to accidentally answer an incoming call. Holt's violent state of mind, maybe phone calls would've been a major distraction.

I'd think having workable communications would be a priority for Holt, so yeah, pitching out the cell phone visibly to all is another "Holtism" we can't understand.

 

[Joe Friday]

I am curious why JH told LE that he "threw the cell phone into the lake" -- but after confessing Friday, and even taking LE to the crime scene that night, he didn't say also, "and here's the phone, which I didn't throw into the lake, but instead dropped at the telephone pole." That berm that the telephone pole is on is very, very small (see picture in previous pages), and the cell phone could easily have been pointed out that night while the officer was copying down the numbers on the two strips stapled to the pole. Instead, JH said nothing about the phone. LE returned the next morning to conduct the search -- and found it right there near the pole. In clear sight of anyone who drove onto the turnout. So...

1) why did he get rid of the phone in the first place?
2) if he thought it was evidence that needed to 'disappear' why would he drop it right there at the pole instead of pitching it into the woods across the street?
3) why would he tell LE he "threw it in the lake" when there is no lake even visible at that location anymore?

Did you ever think JH accidentally lost his cell phone and used the "threw the cell phone into the lake" as an excuse to explain where it went, hoping LE wouldn't find it where ever it was. Not knowing exactly where the phone was himself.

We know JH uses (makes up) excuses to try and explain what else happened that day. (I got robbed and that is where I have been, and that is where all my stuff went)

JMO

 

[Xavier]

I wonder if JH spent any time looking through Whitney's phone at the pictures, text messages, call logs, ect. before he ditched the phone.

Like you said he might have been planning on retrieving the phone at some point. The phone could have been something to remember Whitney by. What better remembrance than a gallery of pictures on a cell phone.

If JH didn't get caught when he did, he defiantly might have been caught when he turned on the phone to look at the information on Whitney's phone and the phone pinged off a tower some time in the future. LE would have zeroed in on the location and found the missing cell phone in his possession.

JMO

If the satellite towers could pick up WH's cell phone, then why not Holt's too?

Seems like he ditched his cell phone possibly because he realized he was a sitting duck via the hi tech spotters satellites.

 

[Xavier]

Respectfully, I still believe the clean up (after moving the body to the back floor, or temporarily removing it from the car) was done prior to gassing up and prior to the trip up Larch Mountain. Just far too much risk to pull into an attendant-served gas station with a car full of blood, etc. and the window gone. For someone to have been shot at point-blank range 4 times in that front seat...well, not to get too graphic, but the amount of traumatic evidence visible through that open window would have been tremendous, and alarming. (Remember, the description we read about, bad as it was, was what was visible AFTER the clean up.) No way I'd have risked driving into town with an open window and meeting with attendants at more than one gas station without at least a cursory clean up.

There'd be no need to clean up a hopelessly bloody car on the mountain prior to abandoning it at the far end of a well-lit, well-populated, 24-hr-video-surveilled parking lot. He wasn't trying to keep the car from being found, in other words. And he wasn't trying to keep it from having blood evidence for LE in it, as he obviously knew he hadn't cleaned it up thoroughly enough to prevent that finding. (I'm sure he saw the 2' x 3' pool of blood on the floor of the back seat when he pulled the body out.)

PIM--- So Holt was trying to lead LE to the crime by doin ga shoddy job of evidence clean up?

 

[Xavier]

I agree with this line of thinking about the Holts' relationship. She certainly seems to be the one that had more steady employment. But she also seems like the type of young woman who was giving her marriage her best efforts. Sadly, she reminds me of someone who could be on that tv show "Who the *bleep* Did I Marry?"

Besides the computers and iPad, he was also buying guns. I wonder if the guns were originally purchased to protect his laptop (i.e. *advertiser censored* stash), which I bet he never let out of his sight. Maybe JH at some point had been robbed, or an attempt made and it made him think he needed a gun for protection.

The area of Sandy Blvd. in Parkrose is not the greatest (between Holt's childhood home and the Burger King on Airport Way where he worked at one time). I used to work over there in a former bank turned office building and we continually had our security cameras stolen and even laptops stolen by someone breaking in through a window. The thieves were so brazen.

Anyway, one can run into all sorts of rough characters in that area of Sandy Blvd. Just makes me wonder what JH's childhood was like; looking for reasons why. The *advertiser censored* makes me think that he was self-medicating some interior trauma/pain that he felt he had no other way to heal from.

That's interesting about Holt's neighborhood as a youngster.

I read Holt would visit his Dad at the childhood around Sandy. So Holt maybe "ran" with some of the "shady dudes" in that neighborhood. I can see how he was influenced in owning guns.

It seems too Holt possibly knew some of the "shady dudes", maybe even was friends with them or even participated in crimes together.

Just My Opinion.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Did you ever think JH accidentally lost his cell phone and used the "threw the cell phone into the lake" as an excuse to explain where it went, hoping LE wouldn't find it where ever it was. Not knowing exactly where the phone was himself.

We know JH uses (makes up) excuses to try and explain what else happened that day. (I got robbed and that is where I have been, and that is where all my stuff went)

JMO

Well, you know I don't believe everything he has said. But my question concerns a logic issue--the reason for his lying. To tell them he 'threw it in the lake' wouldn't deter LE finding the phone if he also willingly led them to the spot where he'd supposedly been. And indeed, they found it the next morning, easily, when conducting the search.

The other problem with what he said, it makes it sound like he didn't really know the spot other than what it was called. Because once down there, there was no lake (even though the spot is called Roslyn Lake). My point being, why lie to LE if LE is going to know it's a lie based on the location he then takes them to at the end of his confession (with no visible lake)?

 

[Xavier]

Respectfully, I still believe the clean up (after moving the body to the back floor, or temporarily removing it from the car) was done prior to gassing up and prior to the trip up Larch Mountain. Just far too much risk to pull into an attendant-served gas station with a car full of blood, etc. and the window gone. For someone to have been shot at point-blank range 4 times in that front seat...well, not to get too graphic, but the amount of traumatic evidence visible through that open window would have been tremendous, and alarming. (Remember, the description we read about, bad as it was, was what was visible AFTER the clean up.) No way I'd have risked driving into town with an open window and meeting with attendants at more than one gas station without at least a cursory clean up.

There'd be no need to clean up a hopelessly bloody car on the mountain prior to abandoning it at the far end of a well-lit, well-populated, 24-hr-video-surveilled parking lot. He wasn't trying to keep the car from being found, in other words. And he wasn't trying to keep it from having blood evidence for LE in it, as he obviously knew he hadn't cleaned it up thoroughly enough to prevent that finding. (I'm sure he saw the 2' x 3' pool of blood on the floor of the back seat when he pulled the body out.)

Remember the Shell gas attendant said he saw someone in the passenger front seat. We don't know from the Shell gas station outside cameras who this "mystery" person was.
I believe the gas attendant, when pressed frantically by LE for clues, answers, did say he believed WH or a woman was in the front passenger seat.

The gas attendant was filling up gas in the SUV, likely standing within feet of good visibility.

Does this sound spooky to anyone? Anyone getting a vibe on this?

Can anyone believe WH would be sitting propped up in the seat (dead most likely), as sad as this sounds.

Or is this someone else in that front seat very much alive???

I'd love to see the Shell video.

 

[kodi]

I wonder if JH spent any time looking through Whitney's phone at the pictures, text messages, call logs, ect. before he ditched the phone. Like you said he might have been planning on retrieving the phone at some point. The phone could have been something to remember Whitney by. What better remembrance than a gallery of pictures on a cell phone.

If JH didn't get caught when he did, he defiantly might have been caught when he turned on the phone to look at the information on Whitney's phone and the phone pinged off a tower some time in the future. LE would have zeroed in on the location and found the missing cell phone in his possession.

JMO

BBM

I agree with you, Friday, what better a remembrance than something as personal as her cell phone? When I think of all the momentos I have on my cell, it's a part of my most recent moments and has connections to many things in my life such as Facebook, email accounts, contact information for my friends and loved ones, private conversations...not to mention many pictures of myself with a lot of those individuals. Simply put, my day to day life.

My gut reaction is he certainly did go through her phone prior to discarding it. But when taking into account the restricted time frame, it doesn't seem like he'd have a lot of time to do so after the murder, IMO. Also taking into consideration he was very likely aware of when it really became apparent to those close to her that something was very wrong (remember he was, for all intent and purposes, in possession of her phone during her abduction going forward), I don't think he would have risked the possibility of it pinging of a tower and being located, as you said.

That being said, I think it is possible he may have had some time after the abduction and prior to the phone being turned off, to go through it. JMO.

*ponders a moment* Though I would think that it might be much safer (for him) to take the card out of it and keep that versus the entire phone.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

I wonder if JH spent any time looking through Whitney's phone at the pictures, text messages, call logs, ect. before he ditched the phone.

Like you said he might have been planning on retrieving the phone at some point. The phone could have been something to remember Whitney by. What better remembrance than a gallery of pictures on a cell phone.

If JH didn't get caught when he did, he defiantly might have been caught when he turned on the phone to look at the information on Whitney's phone and the phone pinged off a tower some time in the future. LE would have zeroed in on the location and found the missing cell phone in his possession.

JMO

If the satellite towers could pick up WH's cell phone, then why not Holt's too?

Seems like he ditched his cell phone possibly because he realized he was a sitting duck via the hi tech spotters satellites.

But the last thing AT&T had on his phone was a call or information transfer at 6:08 that morning. Evidently it was turned off well before being ditched after the murder; remember, his dad and wife were calling him when looking for him later that day, and Amanda said it went straight to voice mail. Does a phone ping when turned off?

 

[Sasquatch]

Sasquatch that was a really wonderful thing to do. I hope Whitneys family is aware of how many of us care and you left tangible proof of that with your roses

I love the symbolism of the spot you chose. A living thing of beauty placed over the ugliness JH left. Very fitting and comforting.

I also appreciate your posts about the area and the drive. For me, living all the way across the country, you have really helped make it more easy to visualize.

Keep up the terrific posts!:yourock:

Thank you for your kind words! I had been meaning to make the trip a few days earlier, but yesterday became the perfect day when the sun popped out. Sometimes just looking at Google Maps can only tell you so much. I didn't realize how tall the trees had grown in the lake bed, until I was there yesterday.

 

[La Louve]

[/B]


That's interesting about Holt's neighborhood as a youngster.

I read Holt would visit his Dad at the childhood around Sandy. So Holt maybe "ran" with some of the "shady dudes" in that neighborhood. I can see how he was influenced in owning guns.

It seems too Holt possibly knew some of the "shady dudes", maybe even was friends with them or even participated in crimes together.

Just My Opinion.

I would just like to clarify that the unsavory characters and parts of Sandy Blvd through Parkrose that I was referring to are more of a transient nature, not people that live in the neighborhood. There's a couple blocks of really tacky little motels right along the south side of Sandy between 110th and 122nd. The north side of Sandy has railroad lines set back from the road and sometimes buildings between the street and the railroad. The residential areas south of Sandy to Fremont are very mixed. Lots of older homes of all eras and sizes, some newer remodels and newer construction as well, with all states of landscaping and decor. I was always surprised when I would drive through that area as to how varied it was. You can see a a great old craftsman style home next door to some boxy thing from the 60s with a flat roof and cinderblock construction. When people were commenting early in these threads about the appearance of the Holt family home in the interview with their neighbor, to me it seemed pretty typical of some of the houses in that neighborhood.

We were told by police after our security cameras had been stolen twice that the seedy parts of Sandy are populated with meth addicts that are stealing anything they can sell quickly to get a lot of cash.

 

[kodi]

But the last thing AT&T had on his phone was a call or information transfer at 6:08 that morning. Evidently it was turned off well before being ditched after the murder; remember, his dad and wife were calling him when looking for him later that day, and Amanda said it went straight to voice mail. Does a phone ping when turned off?

To my knowledge, a cell won't ping when turned off.

We know that JH's cell, as you said, sent it's last communication transfer at 6:08am. Without going back through the pdf, I'm unsure if there's a specific time or merely a generalized time of when his calls started going directly to VM.

As for WH's cell, IIRC, the last communication to her phone was sometime between 9am and 10am, but I believe that's a much narrower, known time frame because of the frequent calls to her. Again, without looking through the pdf, I don't have the exact times.

Hopefully that's not clear as mud. *chuckles*

 

[Sasquatch]

I am curious why JH told LE that he "threw the cell phone into the lake" -- but after confessing Friday, and even taking LE to the crime scene that night, he didn't say also, "and here's the phone, which I didn't throw into the lake, but instead dropped at the telephone pole." That berm that the telephone pole is on is very, very small (see picture in previous pages), and the cell phone could easily have been pointed out that night while the officer was copying down the numbers on the two strips stapled to the pole. Instead, JH said nothing about the phone. LE returned the next morning to conduct the search -- and found it right there near the pole. In clear sight of anyone who drove onto the turnout. So...

1) why did he get rid of the phone in the first place?
2) if he thought it was evidence that needed to 'disappear' why would he drop it right there at the pole instead of pitching it into the woods across the street?
3) why would he tell LE he "threw it in the lake" when there is no lake even visible at that location anymore?

The pole has tall grass laying down around it. There is a 2ft deep drain ditch hole in front of the pole. Yesterday, I put the rose pot into the tall grass next to the pole and placed a few rocks around it so it wouldn't tip over. I could easily see how an object could have dropped and been hard to see, especially since it was getting dark when the LE were there. As far as JH tossing the phone into Roslyn Lake, I could easily see someone saying it still is a Lake. You can not see over the berm, only a mud trail between some grassy patches. Roslyn Lake still has an appearance that it has a South lake side from the road.

I always thought PGE mentioned that when they drained Roslyn Lake, that the natural springs would create a marsh on the South end. The berm was still there where people used to fish from. I didn't want to go onto the berm because there were No Trespassing signs from PGE on the pole. In the turn around, there are two long potholes full of water about 3 feet in length where numerous cars and trucks have worn away the dirt over time. The tall trees in the lake bed and the tall trees behind made a very sheltered spot. I saw only one vehicle go by on the road. The road isn't too wide and runs right along the turnout.

 

[La Louve]

Well, you know I don't believe everything he has said. But my question concerns a logic issue--the reason for his lying. To tell them he 'threw it in the lake' wouldn't deter LE finding the phone if he also willingly led them to the spot where he'd supposedly been. And indeed, they found it the next morning, easily, when conducting the search.

The other problem with what he said, it makes it sound like he didn't really know the spot other than what it was called. Because once down there, there was no lake (even though the spot is called Roslyn Lake). My point being, why lie to LE if LE is going to know it's a lie based on the location he then takes them to at the end of his confession (with no visible lake)?

It seems reasonable to me that someone who grew up in the area and was familiar with the lake might still refer to it that way. I know places on rivers that have had dams removed that I still refer to by the name of the dam.

 

[Glow]

The tall trees in the lake bed and the tall trees behind made a very sheltered spot. I saw only one vehicle go by on the road. The road isn't too wide and runs right along the turnout.

So would it seem like a place a person would pick to pull over and do what JH did?

I have wondered why he pulled over there, Did it seem like a good location to him or did something escalate in the car causing the pull over there.

Would love to hear your opinion,

 

[Sasquatch]

So would it seem like a place a person would pick to pull over and do what JH did?

I have wondered why he pulled over there, Did it seem like a good location to him or did something escalate in the car causing the pull over there.

Would love to hear your opinion,

I am not sure I can fully answer that, but I can explain the area a bit more.
The turnout gives you the feeling of being boxed in by trees. I do not remember seeing a house while standing at the turnaround and nobody was walking around. It wasn't anything like I remember when the lake was open. There were a lot more cars and people fishing back then. Now, It is definitely a secluded area. When the park was open years ago, I believe there was a picnic place at PGE Park where you could pull in a little further East, just off of Thomas Road. It is probably gated shut now. The turnout spot is pretty much the main pullover spot on that road, there is not a lot of a side road to pull over on. And if you don't have an SUV or Truck, you might lose a muffler in those turnout potholes. JH would probably not have pulled over in the turnout with a Scion or smaller car, unless it was on the entrance ways.
As far as why he turned in....that is still a mystery of how he ended up choosing that place, and why he drove 17 minutes in that direction. (17 minutes is based on my theory of a timeline)

 

[Boodles]

I am not sure I can fully answer that, but I can explain the area a bit more.
The turnout gives you the feeling of being boxed in by trees. I do not remember seeing a house while standing at the turnaround and nobody was walking around. It wasn't anything like I remember when the lake was open. There were a lot more cars and people fishing back then. Now, It is definitely a secluded area. When the park was open years ago, I believe there was a picnic place at PGE Park where you could pull in a little further East, just off of Thomas Road. It is probably gated shut now. The turnout spot is pretty much the main pullover spot on that road, there is not a lot of a side road to pull over on. And if you don't have an SUV or Truck, you might lose a muffler in those turnout potholes. JH would probably not have pulled over in the turnout with a Scion or smaller car, unless it was on the entrance ways.
As far as why he turned in....that is still a mystery of how he ended up choosing that place, and why he drove 17 minutes in that direction. (17 minutes is based on my theory of a timeline)

Sas, first, thanks for this description! Did you notice whether the one car that went by slowed down to take a look at you?

Is it the type of location where, if a driver saw a lone car pulled over there at around 7am on a wet morning, he might slow down and inquire whether things were ok/ask if there was car trouble? I guess I'm asking whether it would be odd to see a car parked at that particular spot early in the morning (before the date of this crime).

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

[/B]


PIM--- So Holt was trying to lead LE to the crime by doin ga shoddy job of evidence clean up?

I'm not sure what you mean, here. But to me, it's just odd and doesn't add up. It's beyond basic lying; it doesn't make sense.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

To my knowledge, a cell won't ping when turned off.

We know that JH's cell, as you said, sent it's last communication transfer at 6:08am. Without going back through the pdf, I'm unsure if there's a specific time or merely a generalized time of when his calls started going directly to VM.

As for WH's cell, IIRC, the last communication to her phone was sometime between 9am and 10am, but I believe that's a much narrower, known time frame because of the frequent calls to her. Again, without looking through the pdf, I don't have the exact times.

Hopefully that's not clear as mud. *chuckles*

No, those are good thoughts! I don't remember the pdf mentioning when JH's phone started going to voicemail (don't think it did specify, just that Amanda said it did when she called him during the day, before she knew he was missing). But when I think about the situation, I'm thinking he must've turned it off pretty soon, perhaps even prior to 'the crime' at 8:40. Because I'm guessing his dad would've called him even earlier than that if he didn't show up at work for his 6 AM shift that day. Chris Holt (his dad) also works at Canteen and was calling him and looking for him that day when he didn't show up. Curious that he didn't call AH at her job when he was looking for him--she didn't know JH was missing until getting home, apparently. You'd think he'd have her cell number.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

It seems reasonable to me that someone who grew up in the area and was familiar with the lake might still refer to it that way. I know places on rivers that have had dams removed that I still refer to by the name of the dam.

Yes, I can see why he'd refer to the area as 'the lake', don't get me wrong. But I just can't see why he'd say he threw the phone into the lake, when there was no body of water within throwing distance of that pole (and it was thrown on the ground by the pole, instead). Does that clarify? (or still clear as mud, as kodi would say? )

ETA: Bing map...maybe this will help me figure this out at least, lol.