GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #5

Discussion in 'Recently Sentenced and Beyond' started by Knox, Oct 16, 2012.

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  1. Sasquatch

    Sasquatch Member

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    I believe Aggravated Murder charges can be added in addition to the regular murder charges, if the murder was done to cover up a perpetrator's identity or their felony crime. The two additional Aggravated Murder charges were probably for murder to cover up the kidnapping and sodomy. The Clackamas County link shows some of the charges dropped. It looks like they were originally going for more than six AM charges.

    Originally Posted by caffeinejean http://www.clackamas.us/safetyapp/inmates/inmate.jsp?in=2012031099

    Oregonlive.com talks about why the several Aggravated Murder charges were added, with no specifics of each charge:

    "Holt was charged with several counts of aggravated murder as legal strategy. In such cases, the state typically presents various theories of a crime. In Holt's case, he is charged with committing murder to cover up the other crimes or to conceal his identity"

    http://www.oregonlive.com/gresham/index.ssf/2012/10/grand_jury_indicts_jonathan_ho.html
     
  2. Glow

    Glow Active Member

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    Ok, thanks for that reply Sasquatch. That makes sense.:seeya:
     
  3. Glow

    Glow Active Member

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    So I have a question then, (for you and for anyone reading who has a thought on it)...


    IF Whitney had been sick that day and stayed home, would JH have gone through with it anyway? Picked another victim?
     
  4. kodi

    kodi Well-Known Member

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    I don't feel that he would have, Glow. I feel Whitney was the object of his obsession and if she wasn't available to him that day, for whatever reason, he would've postponed these particular plans.

    That being said, I don't believe it wouldn't be impossible for JH to have found something else to occupy his time that day; I can still envision him moving his bike, not showing for work, staying home and immersing himself in his sick fantasies with the help of his computer, all the while fueling his fire for his ultimate act.

    All JMO, of course. And it just infuriates me more.
     
  5. La Louve

    La Louve For Whitney and Teghan

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    Given the fact of that call made from his phone to the Starbucks at 6:08 am the morning of Whitney's abduction, I think she was his obsessively specific target.
     
  6. caffeinejean

    caffeinejean New Member

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    Could it be the 3 charges that were dropped were the original charges placed in Multnomah County for his arrest warrant. Then after the confessed information, that the murder was thought to have actually occurred in Clackamas County, JH was transferred. The new and additional charges were processed reflecting the updated information in Clackamas County.
     
  7. Glow

    Glow Active Member

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    Thank you both for your well thought out responses and I tend to agree with you that in this case it seems very "victim specific".
     
  8. Glow

    Glow Active Member

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    I hadnt thought about that but that may be the case. If I get some free time later, I will try to brush up on how the law reads in that state. That article that Sasquatch linked above even says that it can be part of the legal strategy!
     
  9. caffeinejean

    caffeinejean New Member

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    JMO... Simply put... I think it will come to light that JH was a dim-witted stalker with sick perversions and sadly he chose WH. Thankfully, he was caught by LE.
     
  10. La Louve

    La Louve For Whitney and Teghan

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    It also just occurred to me that we have no way of knowing if this was his first attempt at abducting Whitney. He may have planned it long enough that he tried another morning and ended up doing exactly as you describe to occupy his day.

    I can't remember exactly how long he had worked at Canteen, but it seems risky to be missing a day of work when he was relatively new. Unless his dad was his supervisor.

    Hard to fit these pieces of the puzzle together.
     
  11. JulieR

    JulieR New Member

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    Wow that was just perfect!!!!! I feel the same. I think as a parent we always feel some responsibility for our children, even adult children's actions. Personally I would feel some responsibility even if I was the perfect parent, that would just feel horrible. ( in no way am I saying JHs parents should feel the way I would) I think it's just the way I would feel. It would be horrible to look at my child and wonder who are you? To feel that unconditional love yet feel I would never choose to love someone like you. Your right it's just sad all the way around.
     
  12. kodi

    kodi Well-Known Member

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    I think you are spot on there, La Louve. I hadn't thought of that and it just makes my skin crawl, but it is very possible. Could you imagine what his phone records might reveal?

    While there are so many aspects of this crime that seem disorganized, I think some of that could even have been planned. Perhaps I'm giving him too much credit, IDK.

    JMO.
     
  13. Xavier

    Xavier New Member

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    One other point I forgot to add.

    IMHO Holt and his wife probably had some disagreements, arguments maybe just a few days before this crime was committed.

    I do not believe this was planned out months in advance. IMO It was more impulsive and was triggered by some spousal disagreements, criticisms that escalated.

    Holt seems to be a "dweller" or allows things to simmer inside him. I think it got to a point where Holt's self esteem /self respect took a beating by the negative "self talk" .

    Holt probably got tired of seeing someone as cheerful as Whitney was, especially as he simmered in his own self misery.

    So he took it all out on her committing this crime .

    I believe Holt would've committed this same crime on his wife, but it would've made him an easier suspect.

    IMO I think it was an impulsive crime conducted pretty spontaneously.
     
  14. kodi

    kodi Well-Known Member

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    BBM

    While I don't necessarily feel he planned this for months either, I do feel it's possible he fantasized about it for months prior. In his mind, I can see his fantasy playing out in a much different way then how reality actually did. I can see this agitating him every step of the way and things escalating and getting completely out of control; JH getting angry, at both himself and at Whitney, the fact that he shot her four times when the first shot probably would've sufficed, and his disorganized cleanup after it was all said and done.

    I respectfully disagree with you on this last point BBM. I feel his abduction of Whitney was fueled by his fantasy and obsessions of her specifically, and his wife wouldn't help feed that. IMO, it probably would have the opposite effect on him and only remind him of what he couldn't have and he wouldn't be interested in going there anymore than he had to.

    All JMO, of course.
     
  15. caffeinejean

    caffeinejean New Member

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    [video=youtube;GcURDTeT2x0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcURDTeT2x0&feature=related[/video]

    I found this KOIN LOCAL 6 News tv video from October 22, 2012. It tells the full story as we still know it today, the same story with nothing new. It just amazes me that more information on the case has not leaked out or that more information has not been revealed about Holt's private life...ie friends, family, work. It just seems incredibly uncommon for such a high profile crime in a relatively small community to remain so "gagged".
    Could it be the investigation is looking for other victims from his past? Or is it just a "slam dunk" closed case with indisputable evidence that will come out in trial in a few years? Any thoughts? Thanks.
     
  16. Desdemona

    Desdemona * * * * Desi * * * *

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    :clap: Highly insightful and rings true IMO.
     
  17. kodi

    kodi Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, Desdemona, for peeking out of lurk mode for that. *smiles*
     
  18. Xavier

    Xavier New Member

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    Thanks for replying KODI----I agree and disagree with you...Take this from a man's perspective, since I'm assuming you're a woman...


    I still think Holt had in the early stages maybe a harmless flirtng fantasy of WH. I also think Holt envied the Heichel's life as a couple, everything looking smoothe, easy, they got along, had a strong friendship, respect in their social circles, church, etc. The Heichels had stability, Holt believed he did not provide their marriage stability from jobs, commitments, behavior ,etc.

    I think Holt's inability to "rescue" himself to provide the stability he needed, craved, was literally driving him into "madness"...And he resented couples who had this stability. Holt's wife talked alot about Holt's self loathing "feeling like a failure in life"

    I disagree with you, I think Holt had difficulty dealing with his wife. Not saying at all she was a bad wife or anything like that. But more so she brought Holt's insecurities in their relationship to the surface. And I believe that bothered him ALOT, maybe even resenting her for this.

    I think Holt's negative self talk about himself grew. I think Holt had a fragile mindset, marital disagreements escalated. And with Holt's self esteem taking a beating --by himself, not his wife-- his only outlet for anger release was to commit this crime on the smaller, petite WH because he could "muscle" her to do what he wanted. Holt needed a big achievement against a woman to prop up his damaged self esteem.

    IMO this crime was about Envy and against Women. Holt needed to dominate, conquer a woman because he felt like a failure in his relationships with women
    . He maybe felt he did'nt have enough stability to sway WH to leave Clint. Maybe WH told Holt at one time, that he needed to "get his act together" for his marrige to survive. Maybe this ticked off Holt, because he was expecting her to say something more sympathetic and less direct from his "fantasy girl" .. IMO Holt's wife was "controlling" his life (not in a bad way) and WH was controlling his fantasy life. So he had to get rid of one, because it was driving him into madness.

    All just my thoughts...

    By the way A most Happy Holidays to Everyone on the Web Sleuths...
     
  19. PoirotryInMotion

    PoirotryInMotion Registered Muser

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    Relatives fed and on their way back home, and Internet back and running. :)
    Hope you all had a happy Thanksgiving.

    Glow, here's the response I promised once I could type on something bigger than my phone...

    I was aware of it; some posters had been offering comments regarding whether or not JH might fit the profile of an anger-retaliatory rapist. I don’t believe people are as easily ‘categorized’ as you do. I do believe people are inherently inclined to try to categorize others; others actively try to avoid doing that, knowing that surface knowledge, over-generalization, and faulty assumptions lead to error.

    Yes, though it would be faulty logic, of course, to assume that since he was known as a quiet, nice guy, he must therefore be a serial killer in the making. That would be an exaggerated example of how categorizing can cause problems when combined with faulty logic.

    But if you’ll read that whole paragraph, what I’m illustrating is someone who was NOT just anxious about finances. He was anxious about his marriage, his wife’s disapproval, his social interactions, his religious faith, and his boss’s approval and job security. In psychological terms, such a person is referred to as having generalized, or ‘free-floating anxiety.’ And these observations were made by others about him—this is not based just on his own testimony.

    The 'tentative' trait was based on his personality characteristics and general anxiety, not at all on the alleged actions he's been arrested for or confessed to doing (I don't believe his confession 100%).

    Kids who are bullied as children are those with the more quiet and passive nature; bullies pick up on that like a magnet, and these kids become the targets. If the bullying is prolonged, and causes someone to snap later in life (and I’m not saying that is the case here), the person’s original nature still hasn’t changed—though his mental stability has, in all likelihood. Your personality and nature are pretty much formed by older childhood.

    Good question, and something I’ve been curious about, also. I’m pretty sure if anyone would know, it’d be Amanda.

    Though familiar with the term in pop culture, it’d be my guess the people who’d actually do this in real life (and who also deal with the bodies, crime scene clean up, and evidence arrangement) are still those who are the professionals. At least the ones who can coolly clean up the blood and biologic evidence, drive around a victim’s hometown area using her ATM card at multiple stops, drop her body and selective evidence around the area, and abandon the crime scene car at a 24-hr Walmart without getting caught on surveillance tape. The cold-blooded hit AND the actions afterward indicate ‘pro’ to me, in other words.

    (See the above response.)

    True—not tons of brute strength in this particular hit, though it’d take some human strength to dispose of a 120-lb. dead body afterward. Physical aggression starts in the mind—that is the first step toward being a ‘physically aggressive’ person, in my opinion. The physically aggressive personality has no fear or reluctance about solving his problems in a physically aggressive manner. Whether it involves punching someone out, knifing them, or shooting them—the result is still considered physical aggression (at least from the standpoint of the victim).

    That is where we’ll have to remain in disagreement. I see a LOT of method and planning (along with some giveaway ‘mistakes’) in this particular crime. TOS (and other reasons) prevent me from going further about that in here.

    The way I’m presently seeing it, there are two possible scenarios:

    1)He IS suicidal, which would explain the suicide jacket and 24-hr round the clock watch. Oregon law requires that all inmates undergo intelligence and personality assessment (including mental health) exams during intake. The psych exams are conducted by mental health professionals. In other words, JH isn’t wearing a suicide jacket because he’s crying and whining and ‘trying to act suicidal.’ I have some familiarity with these tests; they are more sophisticated than that, and will catch ‘fakes.’

    Here’s an excerpt from the Suicide Prevention portion of the OARs (Oregon Administrative Rules) that lists some things the mental health people also look for in inmates, even prior to the completion of formal testing:

    OR,

    2)He is being presented as suicidal by LE and is in “24-hour watch” custody for another, undisclosed reason.

    Personally, I don’t have a problem believing the first, given his tentative, depressive personality traits (several of those traits listed above have been observed by others in LE interviews), his recent life events and probable “life stress” score, and his mental instability a year ago. I haven’t written off the second one, though, and consider it also possible. Oregon state law requires an inmate who is deemed suicidal for more than 48 consecutive hrs. to be transferred to a mental facility for inmates—and to my knowledge, that hasn’t yet happened (same link, half way down, see 5d):

     
  20. Xavier

    Xavier New Member

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    Good stuff PIM. boy you got alot off your mind..LOL

    Happy Holidays
     
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