GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #5

[Glow]

I havent seen that picture before! And yes she seems like she was very fun loving and had a great sense of humor about life and herself.

So good to see a post here on the thread for beloved Whitney!

 

[caffeinejean]

I havent seen that picture before! And yes she seems like she was very fun loving and had a great sense of humor about life and herself.

So good to see a post here on the thread for beloved Whitney!

It was a funny day today. First I was setting up for a sale at our store, we are having an End of the World Sale. Headlines say "Buy like there's no tomorrow". Anyway, I was out in the showroom and an old friend came in with her daughter and her daughter's friend. These are young girls who went to Parkrose with JH. So of course I had to ask, what was he like then? Answer was... "he was a weird dude"..."scarey"..."really strange". Basically they thought he was like a stalker back then. I really don't know if these kids are just interpreting after the fact, but I found it interesting.

So then I go to my salon to get a haircut and (dare I say) "color" for my last day on earth or for the holidays with family... whatever comes first. Anyway, I'm listening or overhearing :blushing: a young girl who's sitting next to me talking to her stylist about Whitney. She admitted to being a real talker as she said Whitney was too. And, that she and Whitney are both very outgoing, fun loving people. She turned out to be a good friend of WH since grade school and attended junior high and high school with her too. She was also in the same congregation. Of course, I had to tell her about Websleuths and how WH had captured my heart. She showed me a photo on her cell phone of Whitney and said she was involved with the search when she went missing. Mostly, she related some cute stories and experiences she shared with Whitney over the years. But of course, I had to ask if she also knew JH. She said she knew both JH and AH and that AH feels just horrible about everything, and that JH was "always sort of quirky". I asked if she knew how long they had been together before their marriage as I knew they didn't attend the same high schools. She thought maybe a year or so, and that JH met AH at a KH function. I left it at that since I'm not a journalist and it was time for the dryer.

Afterwards I went and bought 22 hams. I pushed and lifted about 220 pounds of spiraled pig through the store and loaded them into my car. I got home about 6:30 tonight. Now to top it off, just as I'm stuffing down a quick tuna sandwich and switching on my computer, the door bell rang. Guess who?, it wasn't the Avon Lady. Hmmmm? Won't go into that, but then I check out Websleuths and there is a big new photo of our "Beloved" fun Whitney......that's why I say it was a "funny day today".

 

[gwenabob]

It was a funny day today. First I was setting up for a sale at our store, we are having an End of the World Sale. Headlines say "Buy like there's no tomorrow". Anyway, I was out in the showroom and an old friend came in with her daughter and her daughter's friend. These are young girls who went to Parkrose with JH. So of course I had to ask, what was he like then? Answer was... "he was a weird dude"..."scarey"..."really strange". Basically they thought he was like a stalker back then. I really don't know if these kids are just interpreting after the fact, but I found it interesting.

So then I go to my salon to get a haircut and (dare I say) "color" for my last day on earth or for the holidays with family... whatever comes first. Anyway, I'm listening or overhearing :blushing: a young girl who's sitting next to me talking to her stylist about Whitney. She admitted to being a real talker as she said Whitney was too. And, that she and Whitney are both very outgoing, fun loving people. She turned out to be a good friend of WH since grade school and attended junior high and high school with her too. She was also in the same congregation. Of course, I had to tell her about Websleuths and how WH had captured my heart. She showed me a photo on her cell phone of Whitney and said she was involved with the search when she went missing. Mostly, she related some cute stories and experiences she shared with Whitney over the years. But of course, I had to ask if she also knew JH. She said she knew both JH and AH and that AH feels just horrible about everything, and that JH was "always sort of quirky". I asked if she knew how long they had been together before their marriage as I knew they didn't attend the same high schools. She thought maybe a year or so, and that JH met AH at a KH function. I left it at that since I'm not a journalist and it was time for the dryer.

Afterwards I went and bought 22 hams. I pushed and lifted about 220 pounds of spiraled pig through the store and loaded them into my car. I got home about 6:30 tonight. Now to top it off, just as I'm stuffing down a quick tuna sandwich and switching on my computer, the door bell rang. Guess who?, it wasn't the Avon Lady. Hmmmm? Won't go into that, but then I check out Websleuths and there is a big new photo of our "Beloved" fun Whitney......that's why I say it was a "funny day today".

Great story--thanks for sharing. I am not surprised about the new revelations regarding JH. I wish you could have drawn more out of them. I have to wonder what AH saw in him. Maybe she is one of those "I can fix him" types.

 

[Sasquatch]

It was a funny day today. First I was setting up for a sale at our store, we are having an End of the World Sale. Headlines say "Buy like there's no tomorrow". Anyway, I was out in the showroom and an old friend came in with her daughter and her daughter's friend. These are young girls who went to Parkrose with JH. So of course I had to ask, what was he like then? Answer was... "he was a weird dude"..."scarey"..."really strange". Basically they thought he was like a stalker back then. I really don't know if these kids are just interpreting after the fact, but I found it interesting.

So then I go to my salon to get a haircut and (dare I say) "color" for my last day on earth or for the holidays with family... whatever comes first. Anyway, I'm listening or overhearing :blushing: a young girl who's sitting next to me talking to her stylist about Whitney. She admitted to being a real talker as she said Whitney was too. And, that she and Whitney are both very outgoing, fun loving people. She turned out to be a good friend of WH since grade school and attended junior high and high school with her too. She was also in the same congregation. Of course, I had to tell her about Websleuths and how WH had captured my heart. She showed me a photo on her cell phone of Whitney and said she was involved with the search when she went missing. Mostly, she related some cute stories and experiences she shared with Whitney over the years. But of course, I had to ask if she also knew JH. She said she knew both JH and AH and that AH feels just horrible about everything, and that JH was "always sort of quirky". I asked if she knew how long they had been together before their marriage as I knew they didn't attend the same high schools. She thought maybe a year or so, and that JH met AH at a KH function. I left it at that since I'm not a journalist and it was time for the dryer.

Afterwards I went and bought 22 hams. I pushed and lifted about 220 pounds of spiraled pig through the store and loaded them into my car. I got home about 6:30 tonight. Now to top it off, just as I'm stuffing down a quick tuna sandwich and switching on my computer, the door bell rang. Guess who?, it wasn't the Avon Lady. Hmmmm? Won't go into that, but then I check out Websleuths and there is a big new photo of our "Beloved" fun Whitney......that's why I say it was a "funny day today".

Thank you Caffeinejean, for sharing your great day of synchronicity! Lots of great info! (Wow! and a lot of ham! ) That must have been a good feeling to listen to some great stories from one of WH friends. It has been real quiet around the area, and nobody brings it up anymore in my coffee circles. Too many of the other tragic events have overshadowed the headlines. I don't even see the family around town any more. I do see some of the LE that were on the case around the area. I remember the look they had, after many days of working on this case. Even without words, you could still sense the heavy hearts, that came from this tragedy.

I remember that Tuesday when WH disappeared. There were people on Facebook posting and sharing her picture as a Missing Persons Alert. I remember seeing some posts from friends of friends, requesting for help on the search parties. I almost instant messaged one of them to go help, but I could not get away from my responsibilities. It was on my mind all that day. The next day when I had a short window of time, I drove some of the main and back streets, looking at the sides of the road for any clues. As more of WH's photos came out, it made me think of the month before when she was so nice to me and my kids at the drive-thru! Her kindness really stood out! I am sure she was such a blessing to be around with her close friends. I do believe WH would have been a great mother, and it breaks my heart that her chance was taken away by JH's senseless acts.

Here are the latest media reports that I have read:

The divorce got finalized between JH and AH:
http://www.kptv.com/story/20405770/divorce-finalized-for-man-accused-of-murdering-whitney-heichel

The remainder of Roslyn Lake, that didn't get purchased last month, is getting turned into an Elephant Reserve by the Oregon Zoo. Metro voted Tuesday, on the go ahead for this project.
http://portlandtribune.com/go/42-news/125184-elephants-pack-trunks-for-roslyn-lake

RIP Whitney! We are all still thinking about you!

 

[StormyNights]

Just thinking of beautiful Whitney today....her case is the one that brought me to WS.....Whitney, I know you are a beautiful angel and will always watch over Clint and your family......I hope you have a wonderful first Christmas in heaven.

 

[Sasquatch]

As we head into this Holiday Season, with so many tragedies in our headlines. I wanted to post these lyrics, because they speak of the spirit of hope. The Z. Randall Stroope lyrics are based on fragments of text scrawled on a cellar wall in Cologne, Germany, believed to be written by a child hiding from the Nazis.

Inscription of Hope

"I believe in the sun
even when it is not shining
And I believe in love,
even when there's no one there.
And I believe in God,
even when he is silent.

I believe through any trial,
there is always a way
But sometimes in this suffering
and hopeless despair
My heart cries for shelter,
to know someone's there
But a voice rises within me, saying hold on
my child, I'll give you strength,
I'll give you hope. Just stay a little while.

I believe in the sun
even when it is not shining
And I believe in love
even when there's no one there
But I believe in God
even when he is silent
I believe through any trial
there is always a way.

May there someday be sunshine
May there someday be happiness
May there someday be love
May there someday be peace...."


- Z. Randall Stroope


-----------------------------------------------

Barlow Girls sang a song of hope, based on the same inscription:
http://youtu.be/zvhRlW6A1gk

----------------------------------------------

The Oregonian's photo of WH's Starbucks Vigil!

 

[caffeinejean]

Thank you Caffeinejean, for sharing your great day of synchronicity! Lots of great info! (Wow! and a lot of ham! ) That must have been a good feeling to listen to some great stories from one of WH friends. It has been real quiet around the area, and nobody brings it up anymore in my coffee circles. Too many of the other tragic events have overshadowed the headlines. I don't even see the family around town any more. I do see some of the LE that were on the case around the area. I remember the look they had, after many days of working on this case. Even without words, you could still sense the heavy hearts, that came from this tragedy.

I remember that Tuesday when WH disappeared. There were people on Facebook posting and sharing her picture as a Missing Persons Alert. I remember seeing some posts from friends of friends, requesting for help on the search parties. I almost instant messaged one of them to go help, but I could not get away from my responsibilities. It was on my mind all that day. The next day when I had a short window of time, I drove some of the main and back streets, looking at the sides of the road for any clues. As more of WH's photos came out, it made me think of the month before when she was so nice to me and my kids at the drive-thru! Her kindness really stood out! I am sure she was such a blessing to be around with her close friends.

Here are the latest media reports that I have read:

The divorce got finalized between JH and AH:
http://www.kptv.com/story/20405770/divorce-finalized-for-man-accused-of-murdering-whitney-heichel

The remainder of Roslyn Lake, that didn't get purchased last month, is getting turned into an Elephant Reserve by the Oregon Zoo. Metro voted Tuesday, on the go ahead for this project.
http://portlandtribune.com/go/42-news/125184-elephants-pack-trunks-for-roslyn-lake

Thank you Sasquatch (and qwenabob too). It really was a crazy day:crazy: Hams and all!

I was just going to post the divorce article (just was ready to paste) and saw you beat me to the punch. The young lady I talked with yesterday said AH was divorced which I sort of questioned the finalization of, so I was looking and just found it was printed today.

And the new Elephant Reserve gives another interesting twist to Oregon, and Portlandia. I was thinking it gives a whole new meaning to the name "Bull Run":floorlaugh:, (the water shed that originally fed Roslyn Lake). Also it was Rosy the first elephant in captivity to give birth, to baby Packy, at the Oregon Zoo. So somehow the name "Roslyn" fits the bill too. http://www.oregonzoo.org/sites/default/files/elephants_history_2012.pdf

Even though many more awful events have happened right here where we live, Whitney will live on with us and be remembered well, probably forever. Even such simple things as a good cup of coffee, a lavender orb, a rainbow and an elephant park will spark our memories.
Rest in Peace dear Whitney.

Thank you Sasquatch for the beautiful tribute. Happy Holidays to All!

 

[Sasquatch]

She was so adorable.

May her killer receive justice. May her family be comforted.

Image: http://findwhitneyheichel.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/3.jpg

Beautiful post! Thank you Desdemona!

 

[Sasquatch]

Thank you Sasquatch (and qwenabob too). It really was a crazy day:crazy: Hams and all!

I was just going to post the divorce article (just was ready to paste) and saw you beat me to the punch. The young lady I talked with yesterday said AH was divorced which I sort of questioned the finalization of, so I was looking and just found it was printed today.

And the new Elephant Reserve gives another interesting twist to Oregon, and Portlandia. I was thinking it gives a whole new meaning to the name "Bull Run":floorlaugh:, (the water shed that originally fed Roslyn Lake). Also it was Rosy the first elephant in captivity to give birth, to baby Packy, at the Oregon Zoo. So somehow the name "Roslyn" fits the bill too. http://www.oregonzoo.org/sites/default/files/elephants_history_2012.pdf

Even though many more awful events have happened right here where we live, Whitney will live on with us and be remembered well, probably forever. Even such simple things as a good cup of coffee, a lavender orb, a rainbow and an elephant park will spark our memories.
Rest in Peace dear Whitney.

Thank you Sasquatch for the beautiful tribute. Happy Holidays to All!

You are welcome, Thank you Caffeinejean, for this wonderful post! Great minds think alike, since we both were about to post the same article!
Your Roslyn Lake and elephant jokes had me cracking up! Very Portlandia!

Your post of the "simple things that remind us of Whitney", is so true and inspiring! We had a bit of sun this morning. I decided to go through the drive-thru that Whitney used to work at. I got a Venti Peppermint Mocha. When the lady handed me my mocha, I paid her, then instead of giving her a regular tip, I handed her 4 full-paid certificates to the Washman Carwash, with the Works (tire shine and all). So at least 4 baristas, that were working there today, will have shiny cars and good visibility when they go visit their relatives this Holiday Season! Not a huge gesture, but something a little different, to pay the positive energy forward! It has been raining on and off for weeks here, and it is nice to wash off all of the road spray from the car and windshield, before a person travels!

Because the sun was still shining I put in the Moya Brennan Celtic Christmas CD in and drove out to Roslyn Lake! Beautiful drive, and it stayed sunny the whole way. Crossing over the Dodge Park Bridge, was nice. The river was not in too bad of shape and there were fishermen enjoying the river. I drove up to Thomas Road and looked to see if the roses were doing good. I originally expected them to only last a few weeks. To my surprise the yellow roses were all fully bloomed, and in the middle was a pink rose bud, not yet opened. I guess the reason that they are still blooming is that we have not had a real frost this Fall, other than a light snow dusting. I drove up the street then turned around and came back East. As I came out of the area, with the grove of trees (where I took the photo of the Orbs last time), the sun was shining so bright! As I drove off, I had the Gaelic "Silent Night" song playing (called "Oiche Chin"). Another wonderful drive and enjoying the small things in life!

Thank you Caffeinejean for the inspirational words! Sometimes recognizing the small things, eventually turn out to be bigger than we could have ever imagined!

Happy Holidays to everyone, as well!

 

[caffeinejean]

I recently ran across this "raw" video footage (KGW) of an interview with Whitney's husband Clint. A reporter caught him outside of their apartment. It was prior to the memorial service. I had seen clips of Clinton's statements from this footage but not the full version before the usual hacking of the context. It is about 12 minutes and really gave me some good visuals of the apartment and street from where Whitney disappeared. The cameraman does some different shot angles and jumps around a lot toward the end (even a close up of CH's left hand). It is a very personal interview in certain ways.

I thought it really speaks volumes to a lot of things we have observed and felt, and it comes directly from Clinton. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts... please excuse me if this has already been posted. I watched it in full screen, huge difference for observations of how the street looks where the high jacking took place.
http://www.kgw.com/video/featured-videos/Raw-Clint-Heichel-interview-175665481.html

 

[Sasquatch]

I recently ran across this "raw" video footage (KGW) of an interview with Whitney's husband Clint. A reporter caught him outside of their apartment. It was prior to the memorial service. I had seen clips of Clinton's statements from this footage but not the full version before the usual hacking of the context. It is about 12 minutes and really gave me some good visuals of the apartment and street from where Whitney disappeared. The cameraman does some different shot angles and jumps around a lot toward the end (even a close up of CH's left hand). It is a very personal interview in certain ways.

I thought it really speaks volumes to a lot of things we have observed and felt, and it comes directly from Clinton. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts... please excuse me if this has already been posted. I watched it in full screen, huge difference for observations of how the street looks where the high jacking took place.
http://www.kgw.com/video/featured-videos/Raw-Clint-Heichel-interview-175665481.html

Thank you Caffienejean for posting this. This is the first time I have seen the complete raw interview. Clint does explain real clear, how he feels and how a lot of us are feeling. He seems very genuine, and even through this tragedy, he is able to have empathy for people outside of the family, who also knew Whitney. I would have to say the entire family has shown a great strength, in such a time of tragedy.

The extra footage gives a good perspective of the street outside their apartments. You could hear Hwy 26 in the background, but the local street seemed pretty quiet. The cars parked next to the apartments are pretty visible, even with that little berm. If JH would have pulled the gun around the apartments and WH would have screamed, I am sure there would have been a lot of witnesses. That is probably why JH got her to give him a ride, then waited until they were closer to Hogan to pull a gun. It is a bit more isolated on that stretch of Hogan, before you get to Powell Blvd. I am not familiar with their apartment area, because it is out of the way from where I usually drive. I have been meaning to drive and look in the area, but I haven't had a chance yet.

The raw footage is a lot better than seeing the news editor's soundbites. Thank you for sharing this!

Additional Info: After watching the raw footage a second time, I did notice CH's left hand twirling or playing with the strap. Often times, people that twirl objects, do it out of anxiety or lack of preparedness. Possibly when WH's brother came to pick him up, it might have added pressure on him during the interview? I don't think that CH was used to having all of this media attention and a camera on him. The big exception to twirling objects, would be Val Kilmer's characters that like to twirl objects all of the time in his movies. This is actually Val Kilmer's trademark in many of his roles.

 

[Sasquatch]

After downloading the entire raw interview and watching it a third time, I noticed that CH did not have his ring on his left hand. This sparks a big question, about WH's ring as well. Was it found on her at Larch Mountain, by the police, or did JH try to sell it at the Pawn Shop? There is a Domino's Pizza right next to a Pawn Shop on Hogan (242nd St), where JH told police he had been, when he was walking around. I am curious if JH took WH's ring set. It was not your average plain band. I believe WH had just received a third band to her set, on her last anniversary. Here is a photo of their hands and their ring set. Very touching photo.

 

[Sasquatch]

Here are some more pictures of Whitney. I am not sure if they have already been posted. They seem to capture some more of her bright and kind spirit!

 

[Sasquatch]

 

[caffeinejean]

After downloading the entire raw interview and watching it a third time, I noticed that CH did not have his ring on his left hand. This sparks a big question, about WH's ring as well. Was it found on her at Larch Mountain, by the police, or did JH try to sell it at the Pawn Shop? There is a Domino's Pizza right next to a Pawn Shop on Hogan (242nd St), where JH told police he had been, when he was walking around. I am curious if JH took WH's ring set. It was not your average plain band. I believe WH had just received a third band to her set, on her last anniversary. Here is a photo of their hands and their ring set. Very touching photo.

Thanks Sas for sharing all the super good photos. Really, Clint will not only have sweet personal memories of Whitney, but is lucky to have nice photos to go with.

I thought about the ring missing on Clint that day and chalked it up to a game of Basketball. You know men and rings! I did find that my thoughts were provoked though by some of the wierd angles of the camera on the raw video. The hand shot, apartment balcony and window shot, car shot, street shot, etc., they seemed odd and purposeful in a way.

Also, if JH did take the rings from WH and tried to hock them, I would bet that could have been another tip to LE and more evidence... more video tape of dumb JH from the pawn shop!

 

[Sasquatch]

Thanks Sas for sharing all the super good photos. Really, Clint will not only have sweet personal memories of Whitney, but is lucky to have nice photos to go with.

I thought about the ring missing on Clint that day and chalked it up to a game of Basketball. You know men and rings! I did find that my thoughts were provoked though by some of the wierd angles of the camera on the raw video. The hand shot, apartment balcony and window shot, car shot, street shot, etc., they seemed odd and purposeful in a way.

Also, if JH did take the rings from WH and tried to hock them, I would bet that could have been another tip to LE and more evidence... more video tape of dumb JH from the pawn shop!

You are welcome! Thank you! They made such a nice couple, and had some real nice photos of themselves together. CH even mentioned in the clip for people to come take a look at her FB page. That was a very trusting and open gesture.

I would have to agree that CH took off the ring for a game of basketball. He was wearing it in photos at the WH public memorial the following Friday.

The news crews did take video shots, of a lot of different angles during the interview. I will have to go back and study some of the other shots.

Thanks again Caffeinejean for posting the raw interview! It definitely added more info about the apartment area, and a clearer understanding of what CH was feeling in the following weeks!

 

[Sasquatch]

After watching the CH interview posted by CaffeineJean, it sparked my curiosity about the Heatherwood Apartments area. I decided to drive to that area tonight. I took a right on Hwy 26 toward the first exit to the apartments. I missed the first exit and then took a second exit, which put me into the wrong apartments. So then I got back onto Hwy 26 and hung a right onto Palmquist Road and another right on to SE Cocharan Drive. SE Cocharan Drive turned out to be the road that they did the interview on. The road runs right beside the Gradin Community Sports Park. I drove down the road and saw people walking around like a normal everyday neighborhood. One guy was smoking on the back cement porch of his apartment, and another couple was working on their Subaru on the road. I continued to drive past the Heatherwood Apartments and it turned into a residential area with homes. I did a U-Turn and came back toward the Sports Park. The drive from the area, that they interviewed CH at, to Hogan is only about 2 minutes. The sports park is West, and it looks like a big open area, with some baseball diamonds . When you hang a right onto Palmquist toward Hogan Drive, you go past WH's old high school, which is located on the left. After I got onto Hogan and drove North, it gave me a feeling of being in a partially remote area, away from businesses. This might be the stretch that JH pulled the gun on WH.

When I got home I plugged the area into Google Maps to get a better perspective. To my surprise, Whitney's Black Explorer is parked on the street from an August 2011 photo. Google got the images in August 2011 then posted them probably in 2012 sometime. I posted a link to Google Maps, as well as some stills of WH's SUV. This might give us a perspective of where and how she used to park, near her apartments. It seems likely that Whitney parked on the street out of habit for many years, not just on that Monday night.

Click here for the Google Maps Link:
Google Maps showing street and WH's Explorer from August 2011

Photo Stills of WH's SUV from 2011 Google Maps

 

[Sasquatch]

I hope everyone is having a good New Year! We finally got some snow on New Years Eve! Although it didn't stick much around the Portland Metro area, it was nice to go for a drive and watch it fall!

I went for a drive out to Roslyn Lake and enjoyed the wonderful scenery! The single pink rose bud is still there at the Roslyn Lake turnout and a few of the yellow roses are still in bloom. I brought my camera this time. I didn't capture much snow, but I did get a chance to get a picture of the Miniature Horse Farm on Lusted Road, North of the Roslyn Lake Property, right before you turn onto Thomas Road. I wish I would have gotten a chance to capture a photo of at least one of the three Alpaca Farms on the drive! The Alpacas all had their thick winter coats, so the snow didn't bother them much.

I have been working on some new leads and fresh information, that I will be posting in the next few days. Going over some of the documents still makes me a bit sick to my stomach. I am taking in some of the new information in small steps. CaffeineJean's post of the CH raw interview has definitely sparked some new leads and different angles to look at. Thanks to everyone for all of your information as well! Right when I think I am losing some steam, a new lead pops up.

I hope this New Year brings everyone much Happiness and Peace!

 

[caffeinejean]

Good and Happy New Year to all!

And thanks Sasquatch for hanging in there and sleuthing on. I for one, am really curious to find out about your new leads, thoughts and ideas. I await with great anticipation.

Very happy too that your roses for Whitney have survived our first of the cold winter weather at Roslyn Lake. I was reading about some other people planting roses around the lake in honor of Whitney on the Whitney Heichel Memorial Facebook page. So come spring/summer you might notice more yellow roses. I just saw a report that possible freezing rain may be coming our way, so no driving for you!

Thanks for the new photos and of the mini horses too. Horses, Alpacas, Elephants, Oh my!.... We really are blessed with some varied and beautiful terrain in Oregon.

 

[caffeinejean]

HEATHERWOOD APARTMENTS - Google Maps

Okay, after driving around on google, with the link provided by Sasquatch, I found this map sign on the property. It shows the lay out of the buildings. According to the affidavit or pdf, the Heichels lived in K274 (middle level), and the Holts were in J168 (ground level). The Heichels were on Cochran Drive where the interview with CH took place in front of the 2nd floor unit. The buildings are actually very close to one another, just across the lot.

See Sasquatch, I went for a drive too...