Our university teaches that Patsy did it

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Kaly, Sep 19, 2005.

  1. Kaly

    Kaly Inactive

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    My neighbor is graduating and hoping to be some kind of a criminal profiler from University of Nevada Reno, with a major in criminal justice and a minor in psychology. She says that her entire class studied the Ramsey case very thoroughly and that they all came to the conclusion that Patsy did it as an accident and then it was covered up.

    The professor and students believe that Patsy took Jon Benet into the bathroom to clean her up after a bed-wetting, and she hit her, and Jon Benet hit her head on the bathtub. I thought there was autopsy proof that the head trauma occurred after or alongside of death? Am I wrong? I know it did not show from the outside, until autopsy.
     
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  3. tipper

    tipper Former Member

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    What an interesting class! How do they account for the fact that Patsy had raised other bedwetters and wasn't bothered by it? There was no history of violent discipline or even physical discipline in the family. Where did the idea that JonBenet needed to be bathed because she'd wet the bed come from. It sounded to me like the routine was JonBenet would just change into dry pj's and climb into another bed? How do they account for the lack of blood? It should have been accummulating while Patsy came up with a plan, found the rope etc.

    I'd love to hear your neighbor's answers.

    ps I see this is your first post. Welcome!
     
  4. capps

    capps New Member

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    Kaly,

    Welcome to the forum!

    JonBenet's death was caused by strangulation,the head trauma came after.

    Coincidentally,the conclusion the professor and students came to,is the exact conclusion that was made in one of the JonBenet books,written by Steve Thomas.

    If you ever have a little time,it's a good idea to read through some of the threads on this forum.They are very thought provoking,and may answer a lot of your questions.
     
  5. why_nutt

    why_nutt New Member

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    If anyone, ANYONE, insists that the head trauma took place just seconds before JonBenet's death, remind that person that he or she is responsible for explaining how there was enough time for the sulci of her brain to narrow and the gyri to flatten, since these processes do not happen within seconds of impact and do not happen after death. Any intelligent discussion of JonBenet's brain trauma must explain that narrowing/flattening within the context of the theory.
     
  6. BeeBee

    BeeBee Retired WS Staff

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    Kids have hard heads. It would take a lot more than her hitting her head on the bathtub to make the kind of fracture that was in that kids skull.

    My grandson recently fell off the bathtub and cracked his head on the sink. It was hard enough to cause a gash (and that's hard) but didn't fracture his skull.

    I've seen a child with a fractured skull and I'll never forget it. A friend and I took our 2 girls to a neighborhood park. A little girl was there by herself. We knew her mother and that they lived just down the street. The little girl was at the top of the monkey bars. It sat on concrete. My friend was just about to tell the little girl she should come down when she suddenly fell. She hit head first on the concrete. When we ran to her, we could see where her skull was separated. The little girl wasn't even unconsious. My friend ran to her house and got her mother who didn't seem the least concerned. Just picked her up and carried her home.

    I'll never forget how that childs head looked. It was a horrible thing to see.

    So, IMO it takes a lot to fracture a skull.
     
  7. KatherineQ

    KatherineQ Former Member

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    This seems so totally far-fetched to me. When you look at crimes, you have to look at what generally takes place, and trends, and who commits what kinds of crimes.

    Sure, there are anomolies, but really, crimes seem to take set patterns and criminals fall into those patterns.

    I'm searching my brain and I can't think of a single mother who killed her older child over a bed-wetting accident. Boyfriends, and stepdads, and sometimes biological fathers, kill toddler boys over toilet training accidents. That seems extremely common. 2 and 3 year old boys get beaten to death for soiling their training pants. Sad sad sad. But common.

    How many otherwise loving mothers, with no history of child abuse, kill their 5 year old daughters over bedwetting? It's so very uncommon that it seems bizarre. And then for her to create this bizarre but realistic sadistic sex scene, complete with a historical sadistic knot . . . is unbelievable.
     
  8. tipper

    tipper Former Member

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    But there is no inflammation. Could the blow itself have caused the narrowing and flattening?

    http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://people.cas.sc.edu/rorden/anatomy/sag.gif&imgrefurl=http://people.cas.sc.edu/rorden/anatomy/na_sag.html&h=440&w=693&sz=56&tbnid=pnylEQAnNXEJ:&tbnh=86&tbnw=137&hl=en&start=19&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgyrus%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff
     
  9. narlacat

    narlacat Former Member

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    Well, I don't know how an entire class came to the same conclusion. We certainly can't agree here at WS, there's so many different theories about what happened to JonBenet.
    I don't think I've even reached a conclusion regarding what came first, the head blow or the strangulation.
    I'm not even certain that sexual abuse had taken place prior to the night of her death. I assume, from the way she ended up, that it had.
    I agree though, that what happened to JonBenet, started out as a tragic accident.
     
  10. KatherineQ

    KatherineQ Former Member

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    In re-reading this stuff, Kaly, I think no one in that class is a parent.

    Here's what happens when you have a child who is that age who wets the bed and you have to change their bed:

    You get up out of bed, in a groggy stupor. You make your way into the kid's room, and toss them another pair of PJ's that are dry, and you strip their bed and you try to make their bed as quickly as you can with whatever you have so you can get back to bed. It's like, 3 a.m. I've just pulled sheets and mattress covers off, and tossed down a sleeping bag, and said here, can you sleep on that for now? Everyone is half-out of it with tiredness, everyone wants to go back to bed, and there is no carrying a child back to the bathroom to "clean her up" and there is no rage.

    I wonder about how directed the class was, by false "facts" of this case to all come up with a very odd conclusion of a parent in a murderous rage over wee hours bedwetting.
     
  11. Kaly

    Kaly Inactive

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    Thanks for the welcome but I used to be Kalypso here and am not new. (Lost my password, changed email address, had to start again). I wasn't trying to trick anyone, I just forgot to say so. I apologize. I've added it as a sig.

    I will throw those questions at my University student girlfriend, thanks. It did sound an awful lot like the Steve Thomas conclusion, but she swears her class came to that conclusion all by themselves.

    I have read many JBR books myself, and I see there is still some amount of debate still over that head wound. After I read DOI I felt for sure for awhile that the Ramseys were innocent, but still, they did many things that make me feel suspicious of them. I even contacted Jamison and spoke with her by email. Now, I just don't know anymore....I hope some day the truth will come out.
     
  12. Mama-cita

    Mama-cita Self Appointed Goddess

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    I have been a pediatric nurse for 6 years. Actually, children's skulls are softer and more pliable, they are still growing after all. I have seen skull fractures result from a seemingly innocuous injury, and I have seen bad traumas which we would think would cause a skull fx but didn't. There are a lot of factors. The angle, force of impact, etc. And a head wound would not necessarily cause external bleeding. A closed head injury can involve a build up of blood or CSF, causing an increase in intracranial pressure which can be fatal. Sometimes, accidental death occurs this way.
     
  13. Mama-cita

    Mama-cita Self Appointed Goddess

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    Speaking in absolutes about "what happens when a child..." is not reasonable. I have seen parents who have "reached the end of their rope" do hideous things to their children for far less offenses than wetting the bed. I had a patient whose mother immersed him in boiling water for "crying too much." Yes, reasonable people may behave in a certain manner when their child does something to convenience them in the middle of the night, but when people are stressed/sleep deprived/mentally unstable (all together) all bets are off. So for someone to theorize JB wet the bed and PR flipped does not preclude that person from having kids IMO. Sometimes parents don't act the way they "should."
     
  14. why_nutt

    why_nutt New Member

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    An interesting abstract:

    http://tinyurl.com/9z9f3

     
  15. Mama-cita

    Mama-cita Self Appointed Goddess

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    Exactly. Kid falls. Parent thinks, okay, kids fall. Only perhaps kid had a CHI (closed head injury), and parent, allows kid to go to bed. Maybe writes off kids strange symptoms (nausea/vomiting, unsteady gait). If fall happened close to bed time, kid maybe goes to bed, then intracranial pressure increases causing fatal herniation of brain tissue.
     
  16. tipper

    tipper Former Member

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    Absolutely! And by the time they're 5 or 6 you don't necessarily even bother to get up yourself. They can put on their own PJs and roll up in a quilt.
     
  17. narlacat

    narlacat Former Member

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    Yep. I had a friend once who held her boy's head under the water ( in the bath)because she had just 'had it'. She didnt hold him under for very long, managing to gain control and realise what she was doing.
    Other than that incident, nothing she ever did with her kids made me think she wasnt a good mother.
    Every mother has a boiling point and people have done hideous things to their kids for less than bed wetting as Mama points out.
    I dont know if Patsy lost it over the bed wetting issue or not, but I do know her, and the rest of the family, tried to down play the problems Jonbenet had regarding toileting issues.
     
  18. Jayelles

    Jayelles New Member

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    I agree that a child's skull can break easily under certain circumstances. I grew up being terrified of breaking open my skull after a neighbourhood kid broke his by tripping on the kerb and falling. All sorts of horror stories emerged from this poor unfortunate boy's experience and we were afraid to walk past the spot where it happened because we'd been told there was a stain there which was part of his brain!
     
  19. Tricia

    Tricia Owner Websleuths.com Staff Member Administrator

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    Hi Kaly,

    It's fifty fifty. Some say the head blow came first others say it came after the strangulation.

    I have always thought that Patsy twisted JBR's shirt around her neck, thus strangling her, while slamming her head on the tub. That would explain the strange indentation on JBR's neck that looks like it came from a ring on Patsy's finger.

    There is a picture of this indentation somewhere. I'll try and find it.

    Tricia.

    PS. Welcome to WS Kaly!
     
  20. Linda7NJ

    Linda7NJ New Member

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    Was the class privy to documents we haven't seen?

    *I was a psy major and have a MSW, bed wetting is just about the number one reason parents physically abuse their kids. I will NEVER understand it, but it VERY common and happens all the time.

    I don't think the blow to her head was caused by any accident. I believe it was deliberate.
     
  21. tipper

    tipper Former Member

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    I can believe social workers see it all the time. If the families weren't at risk for one reason or another the social worker wouldn't be involved. In what ways does Patsy fit the profile of a physically abusive parent?
     

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