GUILTY PA - Dr. Kermit Gosnell for killing patient, 7 infants, Philadelphia, 2011

[DairyGirl]

This is not abortion, this is murder. That is what he was charged with and rightly so.
What I don't understand is the arguement about doing a late stage abortion to save the life of the mother. That makes no sense. If the mother's life is in danger you could deliver the child, not kill it. How does the death of a child save the mother's life?
About the only case I would even consider a late stage abortion, and that is iffy, is in a case where the child would not possible survive after the birth due to defects or disorders. In that case I can understand a mother deciding to have the child born earlier to spare more pain to the family, but even in that case the child should never be murdered, just allowed a natural death. I do know of several situations where this has been the case and the mothers have all chosen to carry to term. I can't imagine how painful that must be.

 

[julie2]

This makes me feel sick and I am seriously going to v-o-m-i-t

 

[Sonya610]

This guy really is a loon. He also infected a bunch of his patients with VD because he wasn't sterilizing the instruments! 38 year years ago he was involved in a political stunt that bought 15 women to the clinic for a free "mothers day abortion", they didn't tell the women they were going to use a new eperimental coil device and most of them ended up deathly ill when it punctured their uterus.

More interesting, his wife was part of this. They have arrested 8 of his employees, NONE of which had any medical training, and 4 of which are now charged with murder.

They are not releasing the names of ANY of those eight employees (at least not that I have seen). You know he wasn't hiring people by placing want ads, I am guessing they were all related somehow and that is why the names aren't being published.

 

[Filly]

I personally do not feel bad for the mothers at all, they chose to wait that long and they likely didn't "witness" the severing of the spinal cord.

With all due respect do you know why they chose to wait so long?

Almost all of these women are from a lower socio economic background. They live in poverty. Most never had a stable family life in their entire lives. Perhaps they were lied to by the partner who had good intentions? Perhaps they couldn't get the money together until later? Maybe they were so overburdened with other children and difficulties it took them that long to get to the murderer of women in sad, desperate situations.

BTW, not all the abortions were late term either.

Personally I have not seen the inside of the joint, but know two women that did. One walked out as soon as she saw the inside of the place. These women were recovering on lounge chairs for heavens sake.

Yes, yes they should have all had birth control or made the partner wear a barrier method. I know. However living life like some of these women do that's not on the priority list.

 

[Filly]

I was trying to find the original article from when this story broke here.

Initially he was busted for dispensing painkillers illegally.

One look at the building will maybe give you and idea well give you an idea.


http://content.usatoday.com/communi...tor-has-license-suspended-clinic-deplorable/1

 

[tlcya]

http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/news/2011/01/19/abortion-doctor-in-phila-charged-with.html

this article links to the grand jury report.

Here is a direct link to the report http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/PDFs/PresentmentFinalWomensMedical.pdf

snipped from report

One case was particularly memorable. Kareema Cross and Ashley Baldwin testi-fied about a baby who we will call “Baby Boy A,” born in July 2008. According to an ultrasound, the 17-year old mother was 29.4 weeks pregnant. Gosnell induced labor and sedated the mother, who delivered a baby boy. Cross saw Baby Boy A breathe and move. Gosnell dismissed Cross’s observations, telling her, “it’s the baby’s reflexes. It’s not really moving.” Cross told us that the baby was 18 to 19 inches long and nearly the size of her own newborn daughter, who was six pounds, six ounces at birth. Even Gos-nell commented on Baby Boy A’s size, joking “this baby is big enough to walk around with me or walk me to the bus stop.” Cross testified that she saw “the doctor just slit the neck” and place the remains in a clear plastic shoebox for disposal.
Employees Adrienne Moton and Ashley Baldwin also were present. All three workers were so startled by Baby Boy A’s size that they each took a photograph.
and later

A neonatologist viewed Exhibit 57, the photograph of Baby Boy A. Based on his size, hairline, muscle mass, subcutaneous tissue, well-developed scrotum, and other characteristics, the neonatologist opined that the gestational age was at least 32 weeks.

I am sorry but this is just absolutely depraved. Anyone with the stomach for it should read the grand jury report in its entirety (63 pgs)

 

[Tinsamd]

Originally Posted by Sonya610
What the mothers witnessed? These were "illegal late term abortions". They dialate the cervix and the woman goes into "labor", the fetus is typically born alive (though it likely can't live long because the lungs are under-developed).

At that point they either wait for the fetus to die (as it surely will) or they sever the spinal cord to get it over with faster. Late term abortions are very rare and the few clinics that perform them legally usually only do so if the mothers life is in danger.

I am not getting involved in the politics of the matter but that is obviously what happened here. The mothers didn't turn him in for "murdering" their babies because they hired him to do it!

It doesn't give the age of the fetuses (could have been 6 months along which means they couldn't possibly have survivled or they could have been 8.5 months along which means it was basically inducing labor and killing a viable infant). Unless this Dr. was a complete nut they likely were not viable.

I agree with you.

Adoption would have been a much better, safer, cheaper alternative to the fate that awaited in that "office"....

However, obviously you would have had to have been in quite the desperate situation to seek out these services. One where you didn't consider what happened to you either.

What a nightmare of a story.

 

[Tinsamd]

From the link for the grand jury report posted by tlcox:

http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/PDFs/PresentmentFinalWomensMedical.pdf

He performed illegal abortions after the 24th week of pregnancy, often falsifying gestational ages to disguise his criminal conduct

 

[OrdinaryLife]

From the link for the grand jury report posted by tlcox:

http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/PDFs/PresentmentFinalWomensMedical.pdf

I couldn't finish reading document. There's a reason why I stay out of certain topics. This is definitely one of them. Truly strikes to close to my heart. I cannot be unbiased on any level....

 

[tlcya]

Hugs to you ordinaryLife, I am sorry this one has opened up heartache for you.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

Hugs to you ordinaryLife, I am sorry this one has opened up heartache for you.

It's all good, tlcox. I'm just one of those people who has certain news topics that strikes a sensitive nerve at times. I've never done well with wee infants. At all. I knew better, but I tried to move beyond. An obvious fail.

Thank you for the hugs. Thank you.

 

[JoeFromLB]

What a horrific story. He should have been arrested and the clinic shut down long ago.

http://www.lifenews.com/2011/01/19/practitioner-charged-with-murder-in-botched-abortion-death/

Gosnell told a local television station last year “I haven’t seen a negative comment that a patient has been dissatisfied with the services that I have provided.”

But former patient Dayna Haynes, who suffered a botched, incomplete abortion and had to wait hours for proper medical care, had something else to say about that on camera.

“I really felt like he was just going to let me die,” she said.

After a report showed Gosnell a stack of 40 lawsuits against him over the years, he responded: “If you’re not making mistakes, you are not really attempting to do something.”

 

[Sonya610]

With all due respect do you know why they chose to wait so long?

Almost all of these women are from a lower socio economic background. They live in poverty. Most never had a stable family life in their entire lives. Perhaps they were lied to by the partner who had good intentions? Perhaps they couldn't get the money together until later? Maybe they were so overburdened with other children and difficulties it took them that long to get to the murderer of women in sad, desperate situations.

I think too much empathy is going on here, don't assume others have the same feelings. In many cultures late term abortion and INFANTICIDE is very much okay, it is considered practical. If one can't afford the abortion they take care of matters when it is born.

7-8 months along means it has been squirming around for quite some time and even the uneducated and the poor realize this is alive and cutting it out or expelling it will be brutal. It will be a nasty procedure either way. Sane folks might think best to just wait it out, deliver, then drop the infant off at a fire station or hospital as most all states allow such abandonment with no criminal offense against the mother.

Too think all humans are as sentimental on such matters is really foolish. Humans do NOT all have the same emotions regarding their offspring or anything else, modern history proves that. Selective abortion and infantacide is very very very common in many cultures.

 

[tlcya]

My empathy is for the infants whose spines were callously severed upon entering this world. Viable, born, breathing, sometimes crying infants. I dont think my outrage is too sentimental.

 

[JoeFromLB]

More horrific details here on Gosnell and his practice:

http://www.operationrescue.org/arch...horror-highlights-need-for-greater-oversight/

excerpt:
...Gosnell’s troubles actually reach back 38 years when he was involved in what became known as the “super coil fiasco.” To make a statement about abortion, a California abortion activist named Harvey Karman assembled 15 low-income women in their second trimester of pregnancy, and put them on a bus from Chicago to Philadelphia on Mother’s Day weekend, 1972, where Gosnell would conduct experimental “super coil” abortions on them. Gosnell, who was operating an illegal abortion mill at the time, inserted plastic coils invented by Karman into the uteri of the pregnant women. The experiment went awry, and nine of the fifteen women suffered serious complications, including hemorrhage, infections, retained fetal body parts, a perforated uterus, and one hysterectomy.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

I think too much empathy is going on here, don't assume others have the same feelings. In many cultures late term abortion and INFANTICIDE is very much okay, it is considered practical. If one can't afford the abortion they take care of matters when it is born.

7-8 months along means it has been squirming around for quite some time and even the uneducated and the poor realize this is alive and cutting it out or expelling it will be brutal. It will be a nasty procedure either way. Sane folks might think best to just wait it out, deliver, then drop the infant off at a fire station or hospital as most all states allow such abandonment with no criminal offense against the mother.

Too think all humans are as sentimental on such matters is really foolish. Humans do NOT all have the same emotions regarding their offspring or anything else, modern history proves that. Selective abortion and infantacide is very very very common in many cultures.

I have no words. Few posts have left me speechless and that's not the empathy speaking.

imvho

 

[Fairy1]

What a horrific case. I just can't wrap my head around so many people of "medicine" taking part in what can only be described as murder.

Like others here have stated, I am pro-choice, though abortion would never have been my choice, personally. That said, this goes waaaaaaaaaaay beyond the issue of abortion and I will be disappointed when it is used to further the agendas of either side.

I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy for the women who paid for these "procedures." IMO, they knew very well where to go to get the job done and that's exactly what they did. I take solace only in the fact that these precious babies were probably saved from tragic lives of poverty, neglect and abuse - or worse. We see it here every day.

 

[Filly]

I think too much empathy is going on here, don't assume others have the same feelings. In many cultures late term abortion and INFANTICIDE is very much okay, it is considered practical. If one can't afford the abortion they take care of matters when it is born.

7-8 months along means it has been squirming around for quite some time and even the uneducated and the poor realize this is alive and cutting it out or expelling it will be brutal. It will be a nasty procedure either way. Sane folks might think best to just wait it out, deliver, then drop the infant off at a fire station or hospital as most all states allow such abandonment with no criminal offense against the mother.

Too think all humans are as sentimental on such matters is really foolish. Humans do NOT all have the same emotions regarding their offspring or anything else, modern history proves that. Selective abortion and infantacide is very very very common in many cultures.

Sonya why on earth would I think others feel the same way I do in regards to empathy? I read the thread. In fact I live in Philly and this has been a topic of many a discussion since this monster got busted for running an illegal drug mill. So I don't assume.

I've been pregnant so I know what happens seven months along. Ironically I went to a fertility specialist at HUP for years. Yep, that same HUP that many of this "Doc's" victims were taken to.

Sane folks? An undocumented immigrant from North Africa may very well be sane, but they're not going to go dropping an infant off at a fire station. heck, they fear cops and mail carriers. A 14 year old who is carrying a child conceived through incest is not going to drop off an infant that she birthed with her Uncle, dad or brother. These young girls often don't even know they are pregnant.

Most importantly do you think if many of these women knew they had other options they would have went into that hell hole? If they even were aware that they could get a chemical abortion how would they come up with $500.00 quickly? Get turned down for a second trimester then what?

What this man did is reprehensible. Assuming all of these women knew better is foolish IMO. If they did then let the DA go get their records and charge them with murder as well.

 

[kgeaux]

Barbaric! This is horrendous! What sort of monster can kill babies by severing their spines with scissors! I cannot imagine what the mothers witnessed and my heart goes out to any woman who was desperate enough to feel she needed his "sevices". I know the people involved will be judged harshly for their actions when their time comes. I dont need to condemn them, they have already done it for me.

The "scissor method" has been used by other doctors, too. I remember reading about this years and years ago; it was considered barbaric but not illegal, because the infants never took a breath....but I think they were late term----

That's definitely beyond the age of viability. Jamming a pair of scissors into the neck of a born-alive BABY and severing its spinal cord is something horrific and almost unimaginable to me.

Not trying to turn the thread into a political argument, but if this isn't murder, then I don't know what is!

No politics here, but if those babies had not taken a breath, I don't think there would be murder charges for their deaths, whether the infants had reached viability or not.

I would gently argue (truly with respect, friend) the timing of a 4-5 month abortion. Perhaps do to the fact that I miscarried at that later time frame. But, your point is well made regarding severing spinal cords. Sweet Mary, I just cannot grasp this.

I cannot grasp how callous a heart would have to be to do such a thing either!

I had a child born at 6.5 months----close to 40 years ago----and she could not be saved. Babies born at that stage now are considered viable.

Link is to a chart showing viability of the fetus at different weeks of the pregnancy:

http://www.spensershope.org/chances_for_survival.htm

Note how far we've come in saving infants born early!

 

[tlcya]

Many of these women who went there were probably well aware that their pregnancy were well past the point of LEGAL termination. That is very probable IMO. Some were probably not, as many of his clientelle are young, uneducated and live in poverty. I do not expect those clients to be aware of the laws as to when exactly is the cut off point for when a legal abortion can be obtained. Those women trust the medical professionals at the clinic to be aware of those regulations and guide their decision making regarding whether abortion is possible and legal.

The problem is, there were NO medical professionals at the clinic. The doctor who was licensed was fudging in the name of the almighty dollar and his staff were completely untrained and unlicensed and uncertified in any capacity of healthcare. His staff was comprised of people off the street who answered an ad or filled out an application. Some of them teenagers for goodness sakes. These untrained staff were practicing medicine on the orders of this "doctor".

This is travesty and tragedy. I am so glad this man has finally been stopped and shut down.