PA - Ellen Greenberg, 27, Philly teacher’s brutal stabbing, suicide, Jan 2011 *trial if homicide*

Discussion in 'Currently Awaiting Trial' started by wawashortie, Mar 19, 2019.

  1. borndem

    borndem Anglophile & registered demwit

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    Thanks for the info, especially with your EMS background -- fubar is right.

    The part about 10 stab wounds in the back of her neck -- how did she manage that? Maybe one stab -- still IMO not likely -- but 10 stabs? Nope. I could easily see someone else stabbing her there when she turned her back to him/her. Put one hand over her mouth and stab her in the back of her neck. That would disable her from the get-go, and the rest would have been easier and quicker, seems to me.
    I would also think that if it were suicide she possibly may have thought about a friend or relative being the first non-LE/EMS person to see her? Would she want them to see her in a pool of blood and all hacked-up?
    And this:

    Welcome to Websleuths,
    fusion28 !!
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
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  2. wyome

    wyome Well-Known Member

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    I think the Dr. Oz special on this case aired today? I was unable to watch and forgot to tape. Anyone able to watch this episode and care to share some insights?
     
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  3. Tripod

    Tripod Well-Known Member

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    Ditto- please and thank you!
     
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  4. wyome

    wyome Well-Known Member

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    The Fight for Justice for Ellen Greenberg

    I couldn't locate the entire episode, but this gives several 2-3 minute segments that give a pretty good glimpse into an FBI profiler opinion, Dr. Oz's medical opinion, and parental interview/input.

    The one thing Dr. Oz does point out is that she was prescribed anti-depressants (they were named in segment, can't recall) but they weren't found in her system, so he brings up the possibility of self violence because of cold turkey withdraw from these drugs.

    Parents discuss the fact that psychiatrist she was seeing said she was not suicidal and improving. She sought dr. for anxiety, and there was apparently no depression noted according to parents (which has me confused about the scripts written for anti-depressants, although I do understand some drugs are prescribed "in combination" for best result and low doses of anti-depression drugs also help with other issues as well).

    There was a quick look at inside lock on apartment door. It's that swing arm that's found in hotel rooms. Can't someone kick that over before closing a door all the way?

    FBI guy said she had bruises all over in various stages of healing. He noted the ones on her wrists and offered that she may have had no defensive wounds due to being restrained during the attack.

    One wound on her head was apparently not made by the knife at the scene, yet another weapon was not recovered.

    There's more than this; this is only what I recall after watching it quickly once.

    A lot of stuff to ponder. Of course we don't have a lot of information because everything is closed and sealed because this is considered a suicide. Super weird.

    ETA: The FBI guy surmised someone was inside the apartment lying in wait. Which is an interesting theory. But MSM says police treated this as a suicide almost from minute one, so there will never be a contained scene with evidence to help substantiate this possibility.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
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  5. wyome

    wyome Well-Known Member

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    And I hope I didn't get anything wrong after listening to the segments but it's entirely possible...so please correct me where I may have misheard or misunderstood. Long day today.
     
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  6. KCmetwo

    KCmetwo Well-Known Member

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    I am late to this case as well. I just learned about it today. I found out about it via a story someone did on youtube, HOWEVER they left links on their channel for the autopsy. I will post the link here and any other link I find. It does have the toxicology report so it will show the names of the medication she was on. This is the initial autopsy, NOT the private ones that the family had done.

    Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office autopsy report of Ellen...

    Story related to the incident that also has the initial autopsy in it. there are also other links to "related stories" in this one: A Philly teacher’s brutal stabbing has experts at odds: Was it a suicide or homicide?
     
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  7. KCmetwo

    KCmetwo Well-Known Member

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    I'm curious as to the state of the body...meaning had rigor set in yet and body temp when the LE/EMS had shown up. There weren't any defensive wounds, BUT if one of the first stab wounds were to her head and it was to an area that would incapacitate her, she wouldn't fight back. 20+ stab wounds to one self isn't suicide that's overkill and also could be considered a crime of passion.
    Reason I ask the state of the body is, the fiance could have done it prior to going to the gym had it been him and he would have had time to clean up prior. The security cameras hadn't caught anyone unauthorized in the building. She had bruises in various stages of healing as well.
     
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  8. wyome

    wyome Well-Known Member

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  9. AmandaSkis

    AmandaSkis Well-Known Member

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    I read the autopsy, which was very useful. I was hoping to be able to learn the order of the stab wounds. For example, did all of the anterior wounds happen at the same time (and vice versa)? I’m trying to envision a suicide and what the thinking might have been.
     
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  10. wyome

    wyome Well-Known Member

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    I've tried to figure out the order, too and still come away confused.

    Honestly the first thing I thought about when I heard of this case was Artie Lang, who tried to kill himself by stabbing. He stabbed himself 9 times, 6 were "hesitation wounds" and 3 were deep plunges. He was also on illegal drugs at the time (coke, I think?) and admits it gave him the courage and wasn't feeling any pain...he survived to tell his tale and his battles with depression.

    Ellen's case of 20 stab wounds, however, is bizarre. Nine, I believe are to the back of the neck, and one slash on the back of her skull was "smooth" and could not have been done by the knife found in her per one expert on Dr. Oz.

    That same expert explained that smooth laceration to the back of her skull could have "blindsided her" or stunned her enough to not be able to react in self-defense.

    Were any of Ellen's 20 stab wounds considered hesitation wounds on the autopsy (if that's even a thing in autopsy wording?)
     
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  11. wawashortie

    wawashortie Member

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  12. KCmetwo

    KCmetwo Well-Known Member

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    A few of the stab wounds that were in her head (ouch) were debilitating wounds, they would have prevented her from continuing what she was doing, she wouldn't have been able to continue stabbing herself, meaning she wouldn't have been able to plunge the knife into her chest.

    Does anyone else find it odd that the hubby to be had a new woman move in like 6 months later, OR the fact that his Daddy is a high power Attorney??

    Also, NOTE that one the Autopsy that the "expert" doesn't remember looking at that case AT ALL and it is memo-ed on there and highlighted if I remember correctly.
     
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  13. TwinMama

    TwinMama Well-Known Member

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  14. asmi106082

    asmi106082 Well-Known Member

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    I’m watching an oxygen show called Accident, Suicide or Murder and season 2, episode 1 is about Ellen Greenberg! Wow.

    There is no way this was a suicide. I’m sorry. Stabbing oneself 27 times?!?! Forcefully?!

    Ellen was so beautiful. She had a smile that lit up her whole face. I hope they can figure out who did this. IMO this had to have been murder.
     
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  15. Quiet Time

    Quiet Time Well-Known Member

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    What one thing I've learned from watching these crimes shows, is that when someone is stabbed that many times, it's usually from a person they know. And they're are really Mad at the victim...think Jodi Arias.

    I first thought it could be somebody close to her, and it still could be. They didn't really talk to anyone much, just the boyfriends where abouts before hand...at least that's all we saw.

    I just can't see a young lady committing suicide this way? I believe she was murdered.
     
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  16. jslk

    jslk Well-Known Member

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    I also watched this today and absolutely agree with you. I wonder how much more info there is not covered by the show - any inkling of domestic violence? There also seemed to be some very clear evidence of staging and clean up. I am wondering how on earth this was seen as suicide. Honestly.
     
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  17. asmi106082

    asmi106082 Well-Known Member

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    I just don’t see how it would be physically possible to stab oneself so violently without any hint of hesitation. It’s not natural.
     
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  18. wawashortie

    wawashortie Member

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  19. Snoopster

    Snoopster Well-Known Member

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    This is definitely a suspicious case. Elmomom, I'm reporting my post here, to alert mods that there on this topic. (There is an older thread started last year, with more replies in the Crimes in the News forum.)
     
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  20. TTF14

    TTF14 Spaceship Headlight Pattern Expert

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    Just watched the Oxygen show on this case. I can't believe they are saying this was as suicide! Who stabs themself so many times in the back of the head to kill themselves? Makes zero sense!
     
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