PA PA - Kortne Ciera Stouffer, 21, Palmyra, 29 July 2012 - #6

Discussion in '2010's Missing' started by Knox, Jul 31, 2012.

  1. Topcat

    Topcat snooper

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    maybe the motive was just to get even with her but the more I think about it the more I kind of feel that a ruckus would have ensued and neighbors ,sleepover buddy and cops would be involved. So I'm back to either her buddy or a neighbor...I think her sleep over friend (sorry I forgot his name) passed a poly..the neighbor on the other hand is a different story. Maybe she went out side for a smoke and saw him and he lost it on her accidently harming her. He could have had her in his apartment the whole time (it wasn't searched I'm sure) and disposed of her body later on...possible?
     
  2. scriabina

    scriabina Well-Known Member

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    Just watched the Disappeared episode and read through some of the posts here but not all 6 threads.

    The timeline seems to be that Kortne and her friend got into an argument with the neighbors upon arriving home from the bar. The police were called and finally they went inside. It was quiet for a while until an angry neighbor placed a call to the police complaining that he heard banging around in Kortne's apartment. Then, when the police arrived, all was silent, so the officer left.

    It seems mostly likely that the banging around that the neighbor heard was actually a scuffle between Kortne and her friend which resulted in Kortne's death. In other words, the neighbor heard Kortne's murder at the hands of this "friend," likely by suffocation, which would not require much cleanup. Then when the police came, the killer stayed quiet and lucked out when the officer didn't demand to enter. Either that, or he had already left to dispose of the body.

    According to the parents on the "Disappeared" episode, the 29-yr-old "friend" was interested in Kortne, but she didn't share the same feelings. She may have rejected his advances which angered him, and already drunk with his inhibitions down further, he killed her in a rage.
     
  3. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    The problems with somebody attacking Stouffer in the house are:

    1. Her dog was there and neither attacked the the strangler nor barked.
    2. I don't know if the friend had a vehicle, so it would difficult moving a body.
    3. I think that there was about a 3 hour gap between the friend going out for breakfast. That is not a lot of time to move a body and clean up anything that might have needed it.
     
  4. scriabina

    scriabina Well-Known Member

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    Couldn't they be closed in her bedroom, apart from the dog? Or maybe the dog did indeed bark -- are there verified reports that people stated they definitively did not hear any barking? (As I admitted above, I haven't read every comment in all 6 threads, so I apologize if I missed vital info on the dog.)

    He could use Kortne's car, no? He was riding in the car with her earlier in the night so any fingerprints or DNA found in the car could be easily explained.

    Did witnesses recall where her car was parked when they came home from the bar and if her windows were down then? Since she was a smoker, having the windows rolled down doesn't surprised me -- and she was probably too angry/upset/drunk to remember to roll them up. So I'm not sure how much info can be gleaned from the windows unless someone reported they saw her windows rolled UP earlier in the night.

    Did the officer who visited the apartment early that morning (when it was quiet) see Kortne's car parked outside at that time? If not, it's possible K & friend were already gone at that point.

    And he had to get to work in the morning, didn't he? How did he get to work? Walking, biking, taking a bus, or did he live close enough to Kortne's house that he could walk to his house and retrieve his car?

    3 hours isn't a lot of time but I think he could have done it. Perhaps he moved her somewhere temporary quickly and then moved her to a permanent location later on.
     
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  5. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    Snipped just for brevity.
    Nobody said, "Oh, the dog was barking." Remember, someone would not only have kill Stouffer, but get the body out in from of the dog. Even when the neighbors heard the noises, the dog was not barking.


    There should be something a bit more than DNA in the car. Moving a body is not that easy, more so in an area where the mover is not familiar with the layout. Things can get knocked over, there can be marks on the walls, from bumping up against them with the body.

    It would be very easy to scrape up against something while putting the body in the car, and fragments of clothing, skin and/or hair caught on something. This is being done in the dark, so it would be even harder to detect.

    From what I recall, he went out to breakfast, not to a job. I don't think he left his car, if he had one, at the apartment.

    If he knew of a temporary location. Remember, under this scenario, this would have been a spur of the moment thing.

    There is another factor with strangulation/asphyxiation; most people resist. The guy would probably have some injuries, scratches on his hands, perhaps bruises.

    In theory, it could happen, but it is not probable. There should be more evidence if it happened that way.
     
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  6. scriabina

    scriabina Well-Known Member

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    Points taken, although I still think it's the most likely scenario. True that most people resist, but since she was drunk, it may have been easier to fend her off without any obvious injuries. He could have been lucky. She was a very light woman, wasn't she? Only 115 lbs. As morbid as it sounds, I don't think it would be that hard to transport her without scraping or bumping into things if he had her slung over his shoulder, for example. Putting her in the trunk shouldn't have been too difficult either.

    If someone is out partying and awake until past 4am, why in the world would they get up at 7am to go out for breakfast if they could sleep in (and sleep in with a girl they like)? A person typically would want to sleep in after a night out drinking. If he sleeps like a rock like he says, then why did he wake up supposedly after less than 3 hours and spring into action? Isn't that highly unusual, if not highly suspicious?

    I think he went to breakfast that early to establish an alibi. Moreover, he was spooked from the experience and wanted to get away from the scene as quickly as possible.

    What do you think is a more probable scenario?
     
  7. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    The weather was clear, no rain, from 7/29 to 8/2 at least. The parking area behind the house was gravel.

    Stouffer was 5'8" and 115. It is not impossible for a strong individual to carry something that size and shape, but it would be difficult. I think her apartment was upstairs, so it would involve carrying the body down stairs. If a body were dragged across the gravel parking lot, it would leave a trace.

    It would be possible for two people to do it, though still difficult.

    There was no moon and the house next door had windows and an upstairs porch. Civil twilight started at about 5:30 AM, so at least by 5:45 AM the back yard/parking area were visible. There are numerous garages/parking areas on the alley and anyone leaving could easily see into the yard.

    The police came at 4:20 AM; that would give about an hour and a half window when the body could be moved in darkness. However, it doesn't explain the other problems, no noise, no barking, no wounds.
     
  8. scriabina

    scriabina Well-Known Member

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    But no one saw anything and obviously she left the house at some point before her mom came looking for her. No matter what the scenario was that ended with her disappearing, the fact of the matter remains that no one saw anything. That means no one was awake or around to witness anything at that time.

    The fact that people could have easily seen into the yard is moot, because no one saw anything, whatever happened.
     
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  9. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    Where would you get a trunk at 4:00 AM in Palmyra? Only if this was planned could a single person had done this.

    As to being drunk, both the friend and Stauffer had stopped drinking at least 2.5 hours before. Even if they didn't feel comfortable driving, neither was in a stupor. They might have been over the legal limit, but they were still functional.

    The friend on the couch, Cody, was polygraphed, I think. Someone else can confirm that. The reason for Cody staying was because of the earlier fight with the neighbor, not because he'd had too much to drink. Her friends did not want Stauffer staying alone.
     
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  10. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    However, somebody could have been look, and no perpetrator would have know if they were or not.

    There is no evidence that there was a struggle in the house, including the dog that didn't bark. There would be a limited time for her body to be removed in darkness. There was no evidence that she was too intoxicated to resist.

    I do think she was murdered, or at least died, but I don't think it was in the house.
     
  11. scriabina

    scriabina Well-Known Member

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    In the trunk of her car, not a stand alone trunk.

    Polygraphs are unreliable; no one disputes that.

    Anyway, we have different ideas of what happened and that's fine.
     
  12. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    A trunk of a car won't get the body down the stairs. :) The problem is getting the body to the car.

    There is just too much against the "killed in the apartment" scenario.

    Cody did pass a polygraph, and while not absolute, they only register false negatives less than 10% of the time. Further, it wasn't Cody's idea to stay and it wasn't due any intoxication. The conflict with the neighbor happened at around 3:00 AM, and that is what caused him to stay.

    What I am wondering about is possibly buying, or selling, marijuana or some other substance. She told her mother that the reason her apartment was robbed was because someone was looking for marijuana.

    I could see a situation where someone involved in a transaction came to the door and Stauffer said, **My friend Cody is here, and I don't want him to see this. Let's do this in my/your car.**
     
  13. cutter99

    cutter99 Well-Known Member

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    Her friend is/was a blacksmith and a big guy. Blacksmiths are strong, very strong.
     
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  14. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    It is more than weight; it is bulk.

    I have broad shoulders, and I could not balance something the size and shape of a human body over my shoulder. It would keep sliding off.

    Somebody would have to pick up the body, carry it through the apartment, possibly down a flight of stairs, and about 45 feet to a car. Unless the body was in something, it would difficult to do that without leaving some marks.

    Even if the head of a body would scrape a doorway, there would be some hair or some skin scrapped off.

    If it happened in the apartment, these things had to happen:

    1. The dog didn't react.

    2. Stouffer didn't resist or make any noise.

    3. Whatever happened was bloodless.

    4. Stouffer's body had to be removed from the apartment.

    Finally, unless Cody was involved:

    5. The perpetrator didn't wake up Cody.

    Even taking #5 off the list, that is still a tall order.
     
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  15. scriabina

    scriabina Well-Known Member

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    It is clear that you feel very strongly about this. However, I believe it imprudent to make such sweeping proclamations and completely rule out something that very well may have occurred and is certainly within the realm of possibilities.

    #1 & 2: "The dog didn't react" and "Stouffner didn't resist or make any noise." -- That's not a guarantee. People may have slept through the noise or only been half awakened and didn't remember or report the noise. Moreover, there WERE noises reported -- remember the 911 call about her supposedly stomping around making banging noises? It could have been her deliberately trying to get attention while not being able to scream due to being choked or otherwise partly incapacitated. That was my original hypothesis (see post #1002) Also, no one knows this dog personally or where in the house it was at the time of the attack, so you can't definitively state it "didn't react."

    #4. "Stouffer's body had to be removed from the apartment." Lots of men love carrying women around slung over their shoulder for fun. I don't see that being such a tall order or that difficult. Just because it is challenging for you doesn't mean it is challenging for everyone.
     
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  16. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    It isn't a question of passion. It is one of logic. These 4 things would have had to have happened if Stouffer was murdered in the apartment.

    The neighbor's seemed sensitive to sound. If they heard something that was actually Stouffer being killed, they would have heard the dog. It is the old Sherlock Holmes story about the dog that didn't bark.

    I have never seen anyone carry a woman, even a light one, over his shoulder for fun or any other reason. I have seen men lift women up and even carry them, for fun, but with one very big difference. The woman was not dead weight; she was holding onto the guy, her arms around his neck.

    The best analogy would be trying to carry a rolled up carpet, that is 5' 8" long, weighs 115 pounds, and is too wide to rest completely on a shoulder. Many people can lift 115 pounds. Trying to balance it on that shoulder. Maybe someone could manage that by holding on to and continuously pushing against against the carpet. Now, try moving through a standard door, or coming down a flight of stairs doing that, and, make sure the carpet doesn't scrape against the wall or door frame or knock over a lamp.

    Could someone have carried Stouffer's body down a flight of stairs and to a car? Yes. Could an individual have done it without leaving some evidence? That is very unlikely at best.

    Could two people do that and not leave evidence, yes.
     
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  17. missingm

    missingm Well-Known Member

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    It was her apartment, so her hair wouldn't be evidence of anything.
     
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  18. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    It depends where it is. On a pillow would not indicate anything. Some hair snagged on a door frame would be evidence.

    Evidence is not necessarily proof, but it could be an indication that Stouffer's body was moved.
     
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