Christopher Clements indicted for Isabel Celis & Maribel Gonzales homicides
CLICK HERE TO JOIN THE DISCUSSION

PA PA - Lower Providence, WhtFem 402UFPA, 65-75, Crocheted Slippers, Feb'74

Discussion in 'The Unidentified' started by anthrobones, Jan 25, 2007.

  1. anthrobones

    anthrobones New Member

    Messages:
    1,152
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    0
    http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/402ufpa.html

    [​IMG]

    Unidentified White Female




    • The victim was discovered on February 9, 1974 Near Old Baptist Road in Lower Providence Twp, Montgomery County, Pennsylvania
    • Estimated Date of Death: Mid-December 1973
    • Skeletal Remains



    Vital Statistics



    • Estimated age: 65 - 75 years old
    • Approximate Height and Weight: 5'5" - 5'10"
    • Distinguishing Characteristics: An anthropometric study of the remains revealed that the victim had a short neck and bowed back due to an arthritic condition.
    • Clothing: Remains were clothed in a corset, bra, girdle, light-colored knit dress, smock (orange in color with light-colored flower designs), stockings and hand-crocheted purple slippers.
    • Fingerprints: Not available



    Case History
    On February 9, 1974 the Pennsylvania State Police recovered the skeletal remains of a white female from the Skippack Creek bed near Old Baptist Road, Lower Providence Township, PA.
    The victims foot, which was detached from the leg, was found in a Marvel Enriched Bread plastic bag.

     
  2. anthrobones

    anthrobones New Member

    Messages:
    1,152
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Bumping her up
     
  3. not_my_kids

    not_my_kids New Member

    Messages:
    12,690
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Okay, I'll bite. "Detached from her leg." They do not say dismembered, they say detached. Is this the report writer being sensitive, or do they mean detached, as in removed after her death, and placed in the bag then? I hate reports that don't say they mean.

    Also, if they do mean that she was dismembered, is there any way of getting word on what was used? They can sometimes make that call from bones or tissue, tool marks are wonderful information.

    I'm sure that a profile would say that it was a teenager, since crimes among the elderly are usually committed by the young. However, the dismemberment (if it was such) puts a new spin on that. Youthful offenders offend agaisnt the elderly because they aren't confident or sure of themselves, they are not up to dismemberment yet, that's an older crime. That's why I want clarification on "detached", that could even mean a prosthetic.

    Also, if she was dismembered, then that puts her in a class with a whole lot of dismemberments in PA over the years.

    I haven't found anyone very promising as a match, although I have looked, I have found one woman that is too young and too short and another that is in too good of health, no mention of arthritis.
     
  4. Snufamonbobball

    Snufamonbobball But O for the touch of the vanished hand & the sou

    Messages:
    805
    Likes Received:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I have say this, my mother sometimes uses bread bags to put a sandwich in when she works, and everytime she does that now, I'm going to think about that foot! How bizarre to think "oh, I'll just put it in this here breadbag. How handy!"

    I wonder if the foot in the bag also had a slipper on? It's interesting that she had on a corset, girdle, stockings, bra, dress, smock, and slippers. I wonder if she was sexually assaulted. Could she have been at home cooking something? Hence the slippers and smock- or did the killer dress her the way he imagined women dress?

    Perhaps he started to dismember her and found it "distasteful".
     
  5. Wanting2Help

    Wanting2Help New Member

    Messages:
    1,619
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    0
    bump...

    I don't see a NamUs profile....
     
  6. pianokiller

    pianokiller New Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    When they say smock I think of a housecoat older ladies wear with snaps in the front.

    Working with the elderly I've noticed most older women have these smock-like dresses that they throw on during the day of they get chilled or want to lay down for a nap.

    I don't know anyone who would go outside with them on, so I tend to agree with she was surprised at home.
     
  7. pianokiller

    pianokiller New Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Especially since she was fully dressed otherwise.
     
  8. pianokiller

    pianokiller New Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Bump for this lady :( some one somewhere is missing her.
     
  9. pianokiller

    pianokiller New Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    http://pennsylvaniamissing.com/hudsonalice.html

    This woman disappeared with a red house dress with light colored flowers.

    I know she disappeared in may and this woman was believed to be dumped on December, but the clothing is so close. And I think the locations are roughly an hour away.


    Alice Miriam Hudson
    Missing May 16, 1973 from Logan Twp, Blair County

    Vital Statistics
    Age at Time of Disappearance: 58
    Estimated Height: 5'
    Weight: 140 lbs
    Hair Color: dark, graying
    Clothing: a yellow flowered house dress, a light & dark blue checkered all weather coat, eye glasses and was carrying a tapestry bag.
    Dentals: has dentures

    Case Details
    On Wednesday, May 16, 1973 at around 6:30 a.m., Alice's husband drove her to work at Tritex Sportswear, Inc., just a few miles from their home. Later that day, an official of Tritex called the Hudson residence, asking why Alice had not come to work.
    Her husband returned home at around 4pm that afternoon and found that his supper had been prepared, but Alice was not at home. He found, instead, a 3-page note from her. In the note, she discussed her previous employment and family matters. By all accounts, the Hudsons had no marital problems and lived in a nice home but, along with the note, Alice also left behind her house key, wallet and Social Security card.
    Ground searches conducted by the Logan Twp Police, area volunteer firemen and Civil Defense personnel had negative results.
    Alice's mother died in September 1973. Her husband died was in 1976. Alice failed to show up at either funeral.
    Decades later, Alice Hudson remains missing.
     
  10. Donjeta

    Donjeta Adji Desir, missing from Florida

    Messages:
    19,251
    Likes Received:
    38
    Trophy Points:
    48
    The height is a little off. Does the UID have dentures? the recon looks kind of toothless to me
     
  11. pianokiller

    pianokiller New Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I noticed that too. They do list any health problems for Hudson... Barely any info on her either because they think she chose to left. Everything was a guesstimate along with her photo which wasn't very recent it seems.

    The clothing is what really got me. It's my first time trying to make a match.
     
  12. pianokiller

    pianokiller New Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    It doesn't say; only skeletal remains where found so I'd assume no teeth were found; they don't mention any with the UID
     
  13. pianokiller

    pianokiller New Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    http://canyouidentifyme.org/MontgomeryPennsylvaniaJaneDoeFebruary1974

    snipped
     
  14. pianokiller

    pianokiller New Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2912dfne.html

    This woman was from Nebraska which is a fair jaunt, however I think she resembles the drawing; and she was overweight like the UID, and was wearing a housecoat when last seen.

    She did disappear with her husband, and was reported missing in August. They guesstimate the UID death to have occurred in December which would be plenty of time for them to end up in Pennsylvania, or to have had someone dump her body there... but what about the husband...?

    edit: The Charley Project site for Mary says that it is believed that her and her husband committed suicide together after buying a map of the Nebraska-Kansas area. I don't really think there would be any reason not to believe that and if that's the case there is no reason for her foot to be in a bread bag.
     
  15. pianokiller

    pianokiller New Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/shimkus_julia.html
    http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/615dfpa.html

    Disappeared in Pennsylvania in 1972, but was believed to be alive for sometime after that. No medical problems, height, weight, anything listed though...

    I don't mean to spam the board, I just don't understand why she's still unknown. She could have been someone's mother, grandmother, aunt... Maybe it's because I work with the elderly but I really want to try to work on this case. It's my first case I'm really investing time in, so I don't really know if I'm doing things right.
     
  16. pianokiller

    pianokiller New Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    This one is out there but I see a resemblance in the face. Flora was overweight, she was only 52 but she had back problems from a previous accident [bowed neck in the UID]. The driver she was with was known to not be a good driver, so is that hard of a stretch to believe they somehow on the way out of Virginia ended up in Pennsylvania? Her sister is also fairly a close match and was toothless. They both are a little bit shorter than the UID.

    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/h/helmick_flora.html
    http://doenetwork.org/cases/1914dfva.html - Martha
    http://doenetwork.org/cases/1913dfva.html - Flora

    Alright, I'm going to lay off the posts till I get some other opinions or advice.
     
  17. pianokiller

    pianokiller New Member

    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Any thoughts, anyone?
     
  18. dogperson

    dogperson Member

    Messages:
    757
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I am wondering how her foot was detached. Could it have been from some accident that killed her? Would they know if she'd been struck and run over by a car, for instance? Death could have been from internal injuries or from blood-loss of the severed foot. The person who struck her could have dumped the body and foot in order not to be charged with vehicular homicide, although sticking the foot in a bread bag seems odd. Whoever dumped her body seemed intent on keeping the foot with the body, but why not just put it out beside the body? Why put it in a bread bag? Maybe to keep it from bleeding in your car? But then you'd also have to bind or contain the blood from the leg also, so only putting the foot in a bag makes no sense. If the foot had been surgically amputated at an earlier time, aren't amputated limbs usually incinerated? Would it be possible to still have it and then someone discard it with the body at a later time when this lady died?

    I can't see an invalid wearing a corset and girdle at home. That would be umcomfortable to wear around the house. A corset and girdle are items you'd wear to go out in a nice dress. I'm thinking she had been somewhere in her dress and maybe came home and took off her heels and put the comfy slippers on, slipped the smock on, and maybe started dinner. Then something happened.

    It's a pretty strange case.
     
  19. carbuff

    carbuff Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    19,979
    Likes Received:
    4,950
    Trophy Points:
    113
    She's dressed the way many women of her generation would be dressed if they went to church, then came home to get Sunday dinner ready for the husband. Take off the good shoes, cover the good dress with a housecoat so it doesn't get dirty, prepare and serve the meal -- whipping the housecoat off so she's properly dressed for dinner.
     
  20. dogperson

    dogperson Member

    Messages:
    757
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Carbuff, you and I are thinking the same way about this. What could have happened between putting on the smock to make dinner and ending up with a severed foot and lying dead somewhere? I can't imagine how your foot could be severed in your own house, unless it was done postmortem. As someone mentioned upthread, maybe the killer started to dismember the body but abandoned the idea and disposed of the body instead. Maybe she had an abusive husband and he violently beat her to death for burning the dinner, you never know. There was a lady in our area who said her husband used to beat her for things like that and also if she placed his food on his plate in the wrong order or if she allowed the food items to touch each other, so we know things like that happen. Maybe the UID's husband caused an internal injury that wouldn't show up on skeletal remains. A fracture to the skull would have been evident, so I'm thinking internal bleeding. Maybe he was going to cut her up but it was too difficult or took too much time or was too messy. If they were folks without children or grandchildren to check in on them, he could have claimed to neighbors or acquaintances that she left him or was committed to long-term care somewhere and maybe nobody would have ever questioned. In that case there would be no missing persons report.
     

Share This Page



  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice