PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #16

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Wow...this took an unexpected turn. Sometimes the key to solving a case is having an open mind to alternative views of things we hold to be "truth". If we cannot explore all possibilities and scenarios, we might as well fold up camp and go home.
I apologize if my post stirred anything up- I honestly wasn't asking about Sandusky; just Big 10 football in general. I'll step back for awhile if my "refresher questions" are causing any issues. I sure hope not; if there is a problem, please - anyone- don't be afraid to talk to
me, ok? The last thing I want to do is disrupt this thread.
And, FWIW, I really like & respect the keepers of the flame who've been here posting for years <hugs>
 
My deeply sincere apologies to all for not understanding what I should have done.. which is not to have posted on this issue at all.

I wish you all the best possible discussion going forward, and I hope this case will be solved at some point.

Once I am sure I understand the major POV and so forth, I hope to see you here again. In the meantime, you and Mr. Gricar are in my thoughts and prayers.
 
My deeply sincere apologies to all for not understanding what I should have done.. which is not to have posted on this issue at all.

I wish you all the best possible discussion going forward, and I hope this case will be solved at some point.

Once I am sure I understand the major POV and so forth, I hope to see you here again. In the meantime, you and Mr. Gricar are in my thoughts and prayers.
Oh, please don't leave, @SeekingJana ! I know I didn't word my post well; I think so hard about how to say what I want to that I probably don't come across clearly. (Plus I have an illness that literally causes "brain fog"- which is likely why I get my thoughts & words muddled). I enjoy reading different points of view. I really hope to see you back here very soon...
 
I apologize if my post stirred anything up- I honestly wasn't asking about Sandusky; just Big 10 football in general. I'll step back for awhile if my "refresher questions" are causing any issues. I sure hope not; if there is a problem, please - anyone- don't be afraid to talk to
me, ok? The last thing I want to do is disrupt this thread.
And, FWIW, I really like & respect the keepers of the flame who've been here posting for years <hugs>

Please do not step back. You question was perfectly proper, and as far as I am concerned, you need give no apologies.

Your first question, and my first answer, had nothing to do with Sandusky. It was a general question. I did ask about RFG's relationship with PSU prior to 11/4/11. PSU was, and is, a large institution and, at least in 2012, more than half the electorate in Centre County were either currently attending PSU, were PSU alumni, worked directly for PSU, or were retired from PSU.

If there is a discussion of what RFG did and didn't do in 1998, I will recommend the linked forum on the PSU scandal. :) I will add, at this point, that I believe that RFG's actions were both legal and well within the code of legal ethics. There is not an ethical requirement for a prosecutor to prosecute, even if he thinks he get the case to trial. It is called "prosecutorial discretion." You can Google it and read about it; it is a current issue.

In general, I would prefer (and this is a personal preference) to discuss what RFG did, or did not, in 1998 under the PSU scandal forum. Important exception are:
1. If it relates to his disappearance.
2. His general conduct as DA.

For the first, we can ask a couple of different question and scenarios.

Was RFG trying to build a case against Sandusky when he disappeared?

The answer is no. There was no reference to Sandusky in anything that had, either at home or in the office. The Office did not even have the faxed 1998 police report. Obviously, RFG was not trying to build a case against Sandusky, and there was not a motive to kill him to prevent him from building a case.

Would his decision not to prosecute be a reason for walking away?

Again, no. We have, since 2011, seen several cases where prosecutors chose not to prosecute clergy in the Catholic Church for child molestation, two in Cambria County and one in Butler County; there was also an attorney in Lehigh C0unty who represented the Church. They have not faced either legal or ethical sanctions. The have lost clients, and one resigned from the board of a Catholic school.

RFG was planning to retire from elected office and the practice of law at the end of 2005. He even turned down Buehner's offer to show him how to handle Social Security disability cases, which he could have done on apart time basis. While the revelation of the 1998 case would have certainly cased embarrassment, it would, obviously, have had no effect on RFG politically or professionally. Further, he had no idea if the 1998 case would have ever come out.

While there might be a general motive of not wanting to spend his retirement rehashing old cases, it would not specifically refer to the 1998 case.

As to the second point, how was RFG's general conduct as a DA, or his conduct regarding Penn State in general. The Phillips case shows that he would prosecute football players, even if the case was not strong. I commend him for running the DA's Office well and for his innovative work in using DNA to prosecute. I think it speaks exceptionally well of RFG that he would argue weak cases, cases he had to know he would probably lose, personally. Not only did he say to himself, **This case is not a winner,** but he did not then say, **I'll assign it to so someone else so that I will still look good.**

I do not, in any way, defend RFG's decision on Sandusky, but it was not typical and should not be the sole definition of his tenure as DA.

I agree with TrackerGD whe he says [snipped]:
If we cannot explore all possibilities and scenarios, we might as well fold up camp and go home.

I will go a step further. If we cannot talk about something that might be negative regarding RFG it is the same as saying, "We don't care about what happened to Ray Gricar, so long as he looks good."
 
I can only speak for myself, again, but I messed up and it has nothing to do with any other poster.
I did try to defend instead of objectively discuss, and when a person loses objectivity, they do have to step back and find it again.

@J. J. in Phila , I apologize to you specifically. I was out of line, and I am more sorry to you, personally than there are words.
@GarAndTeed, you are a great dedicated poster and as J.J. said more clearly than I did, you did nothing which was out of line or wrong, or off base or anything else.
@Trackergd, you are a strong voice of reason and moderation and thank you for your insights. I appreciate you being here and for speaking up.

I agree with all of you that we have to consider possible missteps or mistakes or lapses by Mr. Gricar as well as his successes. We used to do that a lot more than we do now, and maybe I'd gotten complacent with only the " good Gricar" vs. the " total picture" we have to consider.

I promise to have better total objectivity after I've re-read some old threads and have a deeper understanding of my indefensible defense of RFG's actions in total, which likely is extremely misplaced regarding the PSU situation in general. NOT that I think the PSU situation should be revisited at this time. I think it's been covered very well now. :)

Self- disclosure- I literally hate the issue so much that I have skipped huge chunks of Gricar case discussion involving this PSU things. That's all on me. It's not you, you know it isn't and again, I apologize.
I'm very humiliated and very sorry for my huge and glaring faux pas.
Just refer to it as " What happens when a case poster loses objectivity" OK?
I'm the poster child for that person.

Please forgive me.
 
Thanks, J.J.- I have to get ready for an appt. but I'll be back later, providing the predicted storms give me a few breaks so I can get online without my computer frying <sigh>. Hoe you all are ready for more questions;)
This is a REALLY great thread!
 
Hey @SeekingJana ! Yea! I can't stand that or the subject either; pisses me off to google RFG & see a photo of that maggot in dang near every article/blog. Gotta run, but I'll get back to you later, my friend...
Thanks for your patience. And you don't need to apologize, IMO!
 
Jana, I am happy you are staying. :)

I'm going to share this story with you.

I talk to numerous people regarding RFG, including people that knew him and liked him.

On the morning or afternoon of 11/5/11, I heard from one of those people. She was amazed that the breaking news. I responded to her, "I think you should read the presentment."

The next day, she responded, "Gricar had to be paid off." This was someone who knew him and liked him.

I was able to respond, saying that there was no evidence of bribery, no big purchases, no unexplained sums of money, and that, if anything, he had fewer assets than expected based on his salary. About an hour and a half later, I got an email back; she said,"Okay, you're right. He wasn't paid off."

Had I not considered the possibility that RFG was getting paid off for something, i.e. he was blackmailing people not to prosecute, well before I ever heard of Jerry Sandusky, I could not have responded. Sometimes, and perhaps most of the time, I have to consider negative things in order to rule them out.
 
Edited to add: Thank you for your kindness. You too, @GarAndTeed.

I understand exactly what you mean, J.J., and the entire PSU thing is my bête noire in the case.
It's MY Kryptonite for many reasons, most of them specific to me and not Mr. Gricar at all.
I could list the reasons, but that would be whiny and self- serving. I was remiss in skipping most of the discussion here when it was breaking relevant news because the combo of a person's bête noire and Kryptonite is almost insurmountable. Add in the fact that I know NOTHING about any sport except ice skating and well, it's a discussion I'm very much on the outside looking into.

Again, this has been my fault, my own blind spots, my own intensely negative feelings about the subject matter and a very strong desire to somehow totally shield Mr. Gricar from it all in absentia.

You were strong, smart, thorough, and you thought ahead as is your intelligent nature, and were objective. You always are, and you and Trackergd did wonderful work with the financial info compilations.
The work the two of you have done has mattered in the court of public opinion regarding the incidents at PSU. While the FBI might or might not have a complete file on his finances, you and Trackergd were able to find enough to do just what you did with his friend with whom you communicated. If the money's not there, and never was there, then he wasn't paid off by Sandusky any more than he was killed by someone connected to Sandusky for not prosecuting the cases in the 90's.
As we quickly deduced, you don't kill the one guy who didn't prosecute you.
 
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Just to answer the second part of G&T's query, I have never heard of RFG associating with anyone from the football program. He had two close friends, Ed Walker and Steve Sloane (SPS), neither of which worked at PSU (though both were alumni, as was PEF). They did go tailgating, but that is more of social thing. (I would note that the really elite types would be in "suites" inside the stadium.)

Barbara Gray (BG), RFG's first wife was hired there in 1979, and spent her career there. She worked her way up to being a full professor in the Smeal School of Business, and is now retired from there. There would be nothing, except incidental contact, involving athletics.

RFG had an FBI background check in 1986, after he was elected; it was basically so that he could handle a federal case, if one came up. His former boss, Mix, indicated that RFG did socialize with people at PSU, but it may refer to him knowing them through BG.

The file is too large to upload, but you can read it, and download it, here: Ray Gricar's FBI file: Read the agency's report on missing Centre Co. DA
 
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Thanks, J.J.!
A couple of quick questions based on my scribbled notes from the Google search:
1) I wrote down 'camera freak- collected cameras'- when reading this blog, I couldn't tell if the author was referring to RFG or someone else.
2) I read in the oldest thread I could access that PF was really angry; I thought that perhaps the statement (mentioned by several people in the thread) may have been in reference to the press conference, but am curious as to whether she typically comes across as angry/hostile?
3) Do you know why the PSP didn't want to handle RFG's case? Would they have done a better job in your opinion?
4) Did the MW look like the nurse or the waitress RFG had flirted with? And do you know if RFG had been in an intimate relationship with B. Petito?
Thanks for any replies!
 
Thanks, J.J.!
A couple of quick questions based on my scribbled notes from the Google search:
1) I wrote down 'camera freak- collected cameras'- when reading this blog, I couldn't tell if the author was referring to RFG or someone else.
2) I read in the oldest thread I could access that PF was really angry; I thought that perhaps the statement (mentioned by several people in the thread) may have been in reference to the press conference, but am curious as to whether she typically comes across as angry/hostile?
3) Do you know why the PSP didn't want to handle RFG's case? Would they have done a better job in your opinion?
4) Did the MW look like the nurse or the waitress RFG had flirted with? And do you know if RFG had been in an intimate relationship with B. Petito?
Thanks for any replies!

1. RFG had some vintage cameras (late 1940's through the 1950's). He also had some toys from that period. That was the extent of his antiquing.

2. At the first press conference she was worried and ask RFG to call. IMO, she was not angry.

I have heard, but cannot verify, that, when the car was found, thought that RFG was with another woman and was angry. People on the scene thought he was with another woman. There was a report of RFG with the "Mystery Woman," and the cigarette ash and scent. The lead detective at the time, Darryl Zaccagni, on the first anniversary, said he thought RFG was having "a wild weekend," when the Mini was first found and opened.

3. The PSP, at that point, didn't really have jurisdiction; the original complaint went to the BPD. I think that there was a certain amount of pride with BPD, that prevented them from referring it. There was a certain amount of "legacy protection" as well.

4. The nurse was checked out; so was Petito. I don't know if there was anything beyond one date with the waitress. I do not knowwhat the waitress looked like. The description is "long black hair and good looking."

I was not hiding in RFG's closet during the early 1990's,so I cannot be definite as to his relationship with Petito. :) I have been given the impression that it was something beyond platonic. I will note that during the period that Petito was around, RFG was not married.
 
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Oh, J.J., of course you were in RFG's closet- you're everywhere else;)!
What do you (and anyone else who wants to chime in) think about RFG's moodiness in the weeks before he disappeared- meaning what's your best guess as to the reason he was "off"?
And don't you think PF knew, at least on some level, that RFG was intimate with other women? I think most women realize there are others on the side, but they choose to ignore it. Did PF have children? Do you know how RFG got along with them?
 
Oh, J.J., of course you were in RFG's closet- you're everywhere else;)!
What do you (and anyone else who wants to chime in) think about RFG's moodiness in the weeks before he disappeared- meaning what's your best guess as to the reason he was "off"?
And don't you think PF knew, at least on some level, that RFG was intimate with other women? I think most women realize there are others on the side, but they choose to ignore it. Did PF have children? Do you know how RFG got along with them?


Moodiness has multiple explanations, that are all guesses. The only thing that we can do is to confirm it and document it.

Some women are fine with their SO fooling around, some turn a blind eye to it, and some women do not realize it.

RFG was married twice, so I think PEF knew he wasn't a virgin. ;) I don't know if RFG had some additional romantic interests when he disappeared.

Under the circumstances, the possibility that RFG was covertly meeting a woman for a tryst cannot be dismissed. He traveled about a fifty mile distant to an area where he would not be recognized, in what is very likely a planned trip, without telling anyone about it, and was seen with a woman. Bob Buehner, a fellow DA and friend who knew RFG from socially, actually recommended that the police check every motel in the area, for women matching the description of the Mystery Women, because RFG might have been spending the night with her.

PEF had no children.
 
I can't remember why I wanted to know this, but it'll come back to me. Did RFG have a gun? Or even a permit to carry a concealed weapon?
Why would Lara 'decline to come to PA court because she feared for her safety'? (I'm guessing this would be some years after RFG disappeared). Anyone know what RFG's relatives & friends think is most likely (suicide, foul play, walk away)?
Finally, did RFG speak Slovene?
 
I can't remember why I wanted to know this, but it'll come back to me. Did RFG have a gun? Or even a permit to carry a concealed weapon?
Why would Lara 'decline to come to PA court because she feared for her safety'? (I'm guessing this would be some years after RFG disappeared). Anyone know what RFG's relatives & friends think is most likely (suicide, foul play, walk away)?
Finally, did RFG speak Slovene?

No, RFG did not like guns, according to his nephew. He would have had no problem getting a permit, had he chosen to do so.

While there could have been a hypothetical one, I know of no safety issue relating to LAG. She flew in the weekend he disappeared. She was also in the county at other points in 2005. I will also note that PEF, until the last 2-3 years, lived in the same house in Bellefonte where she lived in 2005 and that his nephew, TG, has visited the area on several occasions.

SPS is absolutely convinced that RFG walked away. We have exchanged e-mails over the years and a one point, I indicated that there was still a fairly good chance that RFG was murdered. His response was "He is NOT dead."

The formed DA, Madeira, has expressed the belief that RFG "probably" walked away.

TG , the nephew, has said that he goes back and forth; he did, however, state initially that he thought it was suicide.

There is legacy protection here, however. In 2009, when the computer searches story broke, TG said,"A walk-away can really turn public opinion away from someone that can still be a victim in this case. This makes it look like a selfish act or a malicious act, when we don't know that that's the case." He felt that, if RFG walked away, "the public would be rightfully outraged."

Police release computer data

Even if there was a belief on his part that RFG walked away, he may not say so publicly.

I think RFG spoke Slovenian; he had made at least two long trips. Also Cleveland, where RFG grew up, has a fairly large Slovenian population. There is also the possibility that he spoke Russian, a related language.
 
Here is an interesting article from the Altoona Mirror:

Case of missing Centre County DA | News, Sports, Jobs - Altoona Mirror

A couple of things. LE has not put walkaway as a "distant third." SPM, in announcing her panel, actually said, "...homicide is the least likely." As I've indicated, her predecessor said that it was probably walkaway.

I have heard that the dam was not inflated in April of 2005.
 
Jana,
Glad you are staying. It was not my intent to single any one person out. Only wished to remind everyone not to get "tunnel vision". My opinion of events is quite different than when I first joined this discussion and very well could change again depending on any new information that comes to light.
 
Jana,
Glad you are staying. It was not my intent to single any one person out. Only wished to remind everyone not to get "tunnel vision". My opinion of events is quite different than when I first joined this discussion and very well could change again depending on any new information that comes to light.

I totally understand.
My response which mentioned you ,J.J. and GarAndTeed, in my apology was to show that I respect you very much, and also took what you wrote to heart for the betterment of this case discussion in general.

I know I speak for others who follow this case when I say it's such a gift to have you here as a " regular fellow poster" rather than one of the many case dropouts along the many years.. People get tired and they leave when nothing changes in the case but you've stayed with us, so I wanted to name you outright in my apology.

You do so much great work with the scent dogs, a field which amazes me, and also, you've extended yourself for your fellow posters and for Mr. Gricar in his case in many ways since you came here and stayed. Thank you for your wisdom and your kindness and for sticking around. :)
 
I think RFG spoke Slovenian; he had made at least two long trips. Also Cleveland, where RFG grew up, has a fairly large Slovenian population. There is also the possibility that he spoke Russian, a related language.

Respectfully Snipped.

Hmmmm

Lewisburg PA to Cleveland OH.PNG

Route 80 directly from Lewisburg to Cleveland.

Goodness, it appears it is not a big deal to get a flight from Cleveland, OH to Ljubljana, Slovenia...on at least four airlines.

Have we been looking in the wrong direction?
 
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