PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #16

Discussion in '2000's Missing' started by J. J. in Phila, Oct 1, 2018.

  1. BlackTurboS

    BlackTurboS New Member

    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Interesting... who cuts out of work int he middle of the day for a quick trip to Lake Raystown??!? Talk about odd. I forgot about this little nugget of information so I am glad that you brought it back up. What an odd series of events. Attends a meeting, visits lake raystown, then back to work?? Doesn't make sense. This dude was up to something obviously. I am in agreement with the thinking that he was scouting out spots to either dump the laptop or commit suicide. Why else visit Lake Raystown for an hour and then leave? Just doesn't add up to me. Also couldn't agree more with the poster stating he obviously wasn't fearing for his life. You don't trot around Lake Raystown if you think a gang is following you to kill you. Great point.

    If only technology advanced to the point where we could recover the data from the drive. I am wondering if he considered that dumping the harddrive/laptop in a lake would not have the same effect as a river. The moving water and sediment of a river would greatly increase the odds of decaying a hard drive than if it were sitting still at the bottom of a cold lake. While this is a stretch, it would be an obvious thought of someone trying to destroy evidence or his hard drive. I almost picture him standing at the boat launch looking around the lake and thinking "Nahhh... it will just sink to the bottom and sit - I need moving water". Then decided on the river location for his dumping spot - which would then be the next day correct?
     
  2. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Respectfully snipped
    RFG way of relaxing was driving. There wasn't anything pending. We've seen his calendar for May 2005; there was no a lot there that required his presence. He's the boss, so he can come and go when he wants. If he wanted a day off he could usually just take it.

    The lake is lot deeper, so, if he tossed it from the right spot, the drive would never be found. Raystown Lake is a flooded valley, I would suspect that shoreline did not drop off a lot. He might have ended up tossing it into shallow water. There are currents in the lake, so there would be some movement of water.
     
  3. Trackergd

    Trackergd SAR Search Manager

    Messages:
    2,905
    Likes Received:
    1,126
    Trophy Points:
    113
    "PEF left just before SPM came in"

    Any reason (or rumor) given for the departure?

    We have beaten most of the known information to death over the years. Time to find some new information/evidence and to look much more closely at ALL the individuals around RFG before and after his going missing. Who, What, When, Where, Why and are they related. Who left just before RFG went missing? Who left shortly after RFG went missing? Who left when SPM came in and why?

    Why has the case of a missing Pennsylvania DA not been more thoroughly investigated, including a deep dive by Federal authorities? Have some in LE not given this case much attention due to some personal agenda or that of those above them? If so, why? Has evidence in this case been withheld from the public to protect one or more reputations, or even that of a major institution? For crying out loud, I have seen drug and fraud cases more thoroughly investigated than this. Heck, J.J has done more digging than some elements of LE. Something really stinks. If I had to make a wild azz guess, it would be "Lets make a show of investigating, searching and then let this die down and hope folks don't ask too many questions".

    It would be a major bit of detective work on our part to figure out who the mystery woman was and why she and RFG were seen at the SOS. I seriously doubt that RFG would have been walking around the SOS with the mystery woman if he were planning suicide, if suicide had been the plan, I submit he would have been looking at some of the items with head down and a sad look, not walking around and chatting with a woman. The events in Lewisburg coupled with what was on the laptop and why RFG was so keen on destroying it are key elements in this review of the case.

    The only limiting factors for me are distance (although much closer than most WS members) from Bellafonte and Lewisburg, PA and a list of the actual names of the known witnesses. Who were the witnesses who saw RFG in Lewisburg, are they still around and is it possible to re-interview them now that some time has passed and there is not the pressure of an intense LE investigation and search.

    I would find it informative to travel to Raystown Lake and stand in the exact spot the "Doctor" had seen RFG. It would be CRITICAL to me see if someone sitting in a Mini could reach over to the passenger window and tip or toss a laptop over the barrier on the bridge and into the river below. Having walked the park and stood on the river embankment, I am about 95% sure that the laptop was not tossed into the river from the riverbank due to weight and distance from shore. My jury is still out on the hard drive. It would be CRITICAL to me to know if the ash had been planted or had been left by a second driver of the Mini.

    This case needs a serious review by an impartial party with the resources to get it done.
     
  4. Trackergd

    Trackergd SAR Search Manager

    Messages:
    2,905
    Likes Received:
    1,126
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Oh and I suspect the ash and smell were deposited after the laptop had been tossed, otherwise the smell would not have been so intense due to the window being open to toss the laptop and the risk that the [planted] ash would have been disturbed. Who would smoke in the Mini and then lock it up, and why? Oh my, my, my....
     
    J. J. in Phila likes this.
  5. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Snipped for brevity only.

    PEF is Republican; SPM is a Democrat. At least 3 ADA's left, or were removed when SPM came in; it wasn't too unusual.

    This isn't a federal issue. Even assuming RFG was murdered, no federal crime was committed.

    My first guess is legacy protection. That was specifically what LE said was the reason for not mentioning the mystery woman. If RFG walked away, there is the theory that there would be public "outrage."

    The second possibility is that LE thinks they knew what happened, and it isn't criminal. The first police chief said he thought it was suicide; MTM said he thought it was walkaway. SPM famously said, "homicide is the least likely" possibility. Neither would result in criminal charges.

    A third possibility is that they found something more than just damaging to RFG's reputation, something potentially illegal and it is a case, **If we can't find him, we can't prosecute him.**

    BTW, you have done a lot on this case as well.

    We don't know that the mystery woman was anything more that a red herring. At times while shopping, I will see someone in a store. I will go into another store in the shopping center or mall, and see the same woman. This could be a case of that. It could have been someone who struck up a conversation about a product. It might have been a woman flirting with him, or RFG might have been flirting with her. That assumes that this was RFG.

    We would still not know what was going through RFG's mind. Was he looking for a place to commit suicide or to toss the laptop? Did he decide not to do either because the site was not suitable or because he saw someone he know? Was he just out for a drive to relax and stop to look at a picturesque lake? We just don't know.

    I'm saticefied that it was possible that RFG, either traveling very slowly, or stopping for just 2-3 seconds, could have toss the laptop, sans drive, from the driver's seat of the Mini. That does not mean that RFG did toss the laptop from the Mini.

    It is a bit unlikely that someone else tossed it from the passenger seat of the Mini, because there is no evidence that anyone else was sitting in the Mini. That does not rule out someone tossing it from the passenger seat of another vehicle.

    As with above, there is no evidence that someone else drove the Mini; the ash was on the passenger side. Could someone, RFG, a killer, chosen to plant the ash? Sure. Could a smoker, retrieving something from the Mini, e.g. the laptop, have reached in and dropped a fragment of ash on the floor while doing so? Sure. Could a smoker have leaned into the open window or open door of the Mini, talked to RFG, and and dropped the ash? Sure. Unless the person who did this comes forward, we won't know. If it was not related to the disappearance, e.g. somebody asking him how the Mini handled because they wanted to buy one, the smoker might not even realize this.

    The only thing I can say is that the Mini was secured after the smoke/ash went into it. That greatly reduces the chances the smoker forced RFG out of the car at that point, but that is not saying much.
     
  6. Trackergd

    Trackergd SAR Search Manager

    Messages:
    2,905
    Likes Received:
    1,126
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I have found that boots on the ground tells me a lot. Standing on the spot at Raystown might tell me if the spot is better suited for tossing a hard drive or taking a one way swim.
     
  7. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I do understand this, and you point, but it still doesn't tell us what was going through RFG's mind.

    Suppose that RFG was planning to toss the laptop, but when he got there, decided it wouldn't be a good place to toss it. He doesn't toss it. We both go there and reach the same conclusion, it is not a good place. It doesn't tell us anything about RFG.

    Conversely, RFG might have gone there, thought it was a good place to toss the laptop, but then saw someone that knew him. He decides not to toss it. We could go there and reach the same conclusion that it is good spot to toss the laptop. That would not tell us why he didn't toss it.

    The same can be said about suicide.

    To an extent, I'm playing Devil's Advocate, but only to an extent.

    It is a bit like the the bridge and the laptop. I've maintained that RFG could have driven the Mini across the bridge, east to west, and tossed the laptop, sans drive, from the driver's seat, and have the laptop end up where it did. The key word is "could." It is physically possible, from what I can tell, for RFG to have done that. It is physically possible for someone to have tossed it from the passenger seat of another vehicle; that vehicle would not have to slow down. Showing that it was possible that something could happen does not mean that it did happen.
     
  8. Trackergd

    Trackergd SAR Search Manager

    Messages:
    2,905
    Likes Received:
    1,126
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I get what you are saying. I am looking at the situation through a different lens, that of a forensics specialist. I have to see it, experience it, look at it closely and try it for myself. Once documented, it becomes part of our evidence set that may or may not be helpful later, like any other piece of evidence.
     
    Quiet Time and J. J. in Phila like this.
  9. skoogmagoo

    skoogmagoo Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    259
    Trophy Points:
    53
    I wonder if the ash is not significant at all ? Who moved the car from the parking lot to the crime lab? Was it towed ? Did the tow truck driver smoke ? Did someone loading/unloading the car smoke ? Or was the car hermetically sealed as soon as Ray disappeared ? Is this mystery ash 1/4 inch long or serious conversation/ unconscious 2 inch ash ? Forcing someone out of a car while smoking would be dropping ashes all over haphazardly. I would think you would have to be somewhat still to drop a measurable ash.
     
    J. J. in Phila likes this.
  10. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Trophy Points:
    113
    When the care was opened for the first time, LE smelled the smoke and found the ash fragment. It was just a "flake" of an ash.

    The ash may or may not be related to the disappearance. The one thing we can say is that the Mini was closed up prior to being closed up.
     
  11. BlackTurboS

    BlackTurboS New Member

    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Replying to the last few posts since my last post...

    Coming at it from a different lens and after a brief meditation session... I believe RFG selected SoS for its location to roads and a quick exit. If I recall the facts of the case correctly, the search dogs did a circle in the parking lot near the location of where the mini was parked. Experts advised that the dog circling is indicative of RFG entering another vehicle at the location. Therefore, I believe he chose S0S based on the location with access to Route 15 and then quickly connecting to I80 west where he headed westbound. This would then align with the sighting out in Michigan and the consolate's office story. Its a stretch, I know... but I believe he chose SoS for this reason.

    I like how JJ and Tracker are trying to get in the mind of RFG. That is what is needed in this case. To that point, I've been pondering the Raystown visit. If he had a fondness for Lake Raystown, he may have decided to give it one last visit to soak in the sights before he knew he was bouncing from town and his current life. Given RFG enjoyed these spirited drives; I can absolutely see him taking one last deep breath at Lake Raystown in preparation for his departure. Just my thoughts... I am doubting he was scouting the place for suicide. I still believe this man is alive and well and this thread touches on so many good facts pointing to him being out there alive somewhere.
     
    Quiet Time and J. J. in Phila like this.
  12. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There is one other very important factor for Lewisburg. It is not in the Altoona-Jonhstown-State College (JASC) media market. None of the local stations in that market are carried in Lewisburg.

    RFG was a public figure for almost 25 years. His photo was in the paper and he was on the news. He had a substantially smaller chance of being recognized in Lewisburg.

    If he would go as far as 50 miles in any direction, there was a 75% chance that he would be in the JASC media market. Only if he were go east would he be out of that market.
     
  13. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Let me fix that. :)

    The only thing we can say s that the Mini was closed up after the ash/smoke went into the car.
     
  14. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Trophy Points:
    113

Share This Page



  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice