PARENTS KILLED AMBER ALERT ISSUED FOR 13-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER
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POLICE NEED PUBLIC'S HELP IN FINDING MISSING AND PREGNANT KIERRA COLES

PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #16

Discussion in '2000's Missing' started by J. J. in Phila, Oct 1, 2018.

  1. GarAndTeed

    GarAndTeed Well-Known Member

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    Hi All,
    I'm horrible at multi-quoting, so please forgive me. First, welcome @Lorenathered ! I was curious about the cigarette butts & DNA, too. J.J. do you (or does anyone) know if they obtained DNA from people close/known to RFG, just to rule them out? This may sound stupid, but I've seen "rabid non-smokers" bum or buy cigs & smoke, so I figure anything's possible (although I'm not very open to the idea of anyone LE may have needed to rule out being dense enough to leave their cigarette butts around RFG's car).
    In re: the laptop~ any ideas on what may have been on it that worried RFG enough to destroy it? If this has been addressed at length, can someone direct me to a thread? Thanks!
     
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  2. Trackergd

    Trackergd SAR Search Manager

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    Respectfully snipped

    I am considering the scenario that there was one person driving the mini and the other tossing out the laptop, and that the passenger was smoking and dropped the ash. This would go to at least one other person being involved.
     
  3. Trackergd

    Trackergd SAR Search Manager

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    Speculation on what may have been contained on the laptop have run the gamut from PSU dirt to porn and/or communications, to transfer of funds offshore, to detailed exit plans, to dirt on someone of power, and even communications with a lover (married or not) that may have included photographs that could have been legacy damaging. All this is spread over a number of threads.
     
  4. GarAndTeed

    GarAndTeed Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your reply, @Trackergd ! I'm not surprised that this has been discussed. I'm working my way through older threads, so I'll keep an eye out.
     
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  5. GarAndTeed

    GarAndTeed Well-Known Member

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    Hi again all-
    One of the reasons I was curious about RFG and his interest in/ ties to Penn State football was because I witnessed "babysitting", and discussions of it in relation to the University of Iowa, and also the NFL. I couldn't recall the practice well enough to define it, but I just Googled it, and found this result:
    Football's Game Changers
    (And we'll see if this copy & paste job worked at all)
    So my question is: would RFG possibly have been a party to this sort of thing, perhaps as a favor to a friend if not due to his own interests?
     
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  6. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    No on the DNA of anyone close.

    The "babysitting" would be very unlikely, at best. Other than prosecuting football players and tailgating, RFG didn't have any known involvement with football. He was more of a baseball fan.
     
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  7. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    There is another possibility, though I am not disagreeing with your point. He could have transferred everything from the laptop to the desktop. It might a case of him just not wanting anyone else to see it.
     
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  8. SeekingJana

    SeekingJana Well-Known Member

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    My little convo at the courthouse was my silly sense of humor, thus is hypothetical, but I imagine he's smart enough to get a car if he needs a car... he likely knew all kinds of ways to get past the paperwork. Title it in someone else' s name, IDK a lot about this as my husband does that kind of thing in our household but with AAA we are able to get everything done online except the actual physical inspection of our cars. I haven't had a new DL photo in many years because I renew online.
     
  9. SeekingJana

    SeekingJana Well-Known Member

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    Snipped by me with respect as well, and because the " airtight container" for 13 years is just gross.

    The first rule of personal safety is " NEVER get into anyone's car for any reason." Ray definitely would have known this as a D.A. who likely prosecuted many stalking/ abduction/ rape cases.

    I've known it and had it drilled into my head by my parents, then LE officers for all my adult life. But, I was hit on the head from behind and stun gunned, and scooped up at night into a car where I couldn't be seen.

    So, forced abduction, but it was the one point in the assaulter's trial that was least provable- that I had not gotten into his Corvette voluntarily, as we did know each other. There was no head injury present in all the myriad of injuries almost 3 days later and stun gun left no marks at all. Of course, it was a minor moot point and he was convicted of kidnapping as well as everything else, and is now free because of his exemplary service for 30 years as a LE official.
    ( This is to say- " Justice is sometimes a relative term").

    I guess my point is " I hate to think about it all, but have come to realize that anyone can be rendered temporarily unable to resist abduction".
    In most cases, like a middle aged man such as RFG, the ending would be death, using Occam's Razor. I sincerely doubt he had a stalker who could put him into a vehicle and also keep him alive for 2 days. It would have been a criminal kidnapping and he would have been killed shortly afterwards and his remains would be found, IMO.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  10. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    Respectfully snipped, as always.


    The difference, in this case, is the proximity to the houses, and the foot and vehicle traffic. It isn't just a question of someone getting the drop on RFG, but it is to do it quietly and without creating attention. Even if RFG had been knocked out, the killer would have to get him into a vehicle.
     
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  11. SeekingJana

    SeekingJana Well-Known Member

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    You're right. I did have neighbors, but none of us tended to sit and look out a door or window.. It was a huge Victorian house and the house had been turned into a few very spacious apartments in the 1940's or before. So vintage on top of vintage, with so much charm.

    I am only 5'6'' tall and weighed about 110 pounds at that time, so I was not the same size as RFG or most men. Also, I had long very thick hair, which was used as a part of leverage to maneuver me while I was unresponsive. They found huge long hand fulls of my hair in his car, and the only way it could have gotten there was if he was pulling me forcefully by my hair.
    There was also a very tall and thick ( very old) boxwood hedge blocking his car from the houses as he had parked across the street by a city park.

    It was the perfect place for me until the day it wasn't. One day, I thought " I am ready to see a photo of that place again" and when I looked on Google, there is only a vacant lot. The house burned a few years ago with no injuries. I can't begin to say how glad I am that it's gone. It wasn't safe for me or any other woman, although the location and interior features were amazingly great. There were huge unlit places and the park across the street lacked lighting too.

    Point being, no, I don't think he would be a candidate for bodily force abduction, and that's really the only kind there is for a person who is aware that death is what the end result will be anyway so let them shoot you in the parking lot in broad daylight but DO NOT get in their car with them!!! Ray would have known. Surely, if I know, he would have known, right? :)
     
  12. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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  13. SeekingJana

    SeekingJana Well-Known Member

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    OK, thanks for the article but I cannot get through that piece, J.J. Too much sports for me. I see PSU and I start to have blurred vision. Sad but true. Huge amt. of personal disdain and resentment against that Athletic Dept.

    Could you summarize what D.A. Gricar did or didn't do after the statement to the effect that after 4 years, they didn't believe they could reassemble all of the witnesses.
    How does it even make sense that college age youths couldn't be reassembled 4 years later?

    I hope that's the main point regarding Gricar because if it's not, I totally missed the point of the rambling article which, IMO, tackles about 4 different subjects off on tangents.
     
  14. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    Basically, he prosecuted members of the wrestling team for rape. PSU has some championship wrestling teams. PEF had an uncle that was a member years before.

    I do not know of any "personal disdain."
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018 at 10:08 PM
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  15. SeekingJana

    SeekingJana Well-Known Member

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    I should have been more clear. The personal disdain is mine. I have extreme personal disdain and actual revulsion regarding PSU sports programs because of J.S.
     
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  16. Trackergd

    Trackergd SAR Search Manager

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    Here's where I am right now and why:
    Suicide - 1% Unlikely that he tried to hide his body as finding his body would have accelerated payout of insurance etc to loved ones.
    Homicide - 2% Unlikely but possible. No public information (smoking gun) has surfaced to support a motive for murder.
    Walk Away - 96% My opinion is he met someone in Lewisburg and disposed of the laptop to cover legacy damaging information, financial information and exit plans. His exit plans were detailed to the point of leaving the book open on his desk, the phone call to PF about the dogs, wiping the hard drive and leaving the box and computer searches for frying a hard drive. His demeanor in the preceding days was his contemplation of the events to come, leaving loved ones behind, leaving a job he loved and ensuring he had covered all small details that usually unravel these types of cases.
     
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  17. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    First, the book was open on the desk, When they checked it,it opened to the page regarding a vacancy in the DA position.

    I am a lot higher on homicide, because there is one scenario that really haunts me. It can explain the change in demeanor. That scenario is: RFG was meeting a woman for a romantic encounter.

    The specific scenarios include in no particular order:

    1. RFG was meeting a woman, and if seen with her, it would have caused professional problems. She could have been a witness, a defendant, or relative or SO of one. In theory, she could have been a judge, but there were no female judges in Centre County at the time.

    We have seen this happen with an ADA in Centre County, and with a DA in another Central Pennsylvania county. Ex-prosecutor who helped drug dealers for sex gets probation

    In this scenario, RFG and the woman had a lover's quarrel, RFG had a fatal accident, or RFG had a fatal health crisis. The woman could not report the death without compromising that particular case or is worried about prossecution.

    2. RFG was meeting a woman who was in another relationship, and did not want to leave it. Again, RFG and the woman had a lover's quarrel, RFG had a fatal accident, or RFG had a fatal health crisis.

    3. RFG was meeting a woman, who was setting him up. She met up with him in Lewisburg. He got there early because he wanted to toss the laptop and drive. After they met up, she, and/or her cohorts, killed him and hid the body. This could be someone connected to one of his cases as in #1.

    All of these could explain his change in demeanor, especially, #1 and #3. RFG might have wanted to end the relationship, and that could account for it as well in all three cases.

    Those are all foul play of some sort, even if the charge was abuse of a corpse. It could, at most, be first degree in the case 0f #3.

    #1 and #2 are consistent with RFG being in Lewisburg on 4/16. Right now I'm 50/50 about RFG being in Lewisburg on 4/16.

    I am playing Devil's Advocate.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018 at 10:09 PM
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  18. SeekingJana

    SeekingJana Well-Known Member

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    I know it doesn't matter, because I'm just a poster on a forum, with no connection to LE or the family or friends, but Trackergd, you and I are walking in perfect sync now. When I read your posts, the things I have come to " see" happen are validated.

    One thing about " a woman meeting a man for romance", and this is not in response to Trackergd's post.

    1) Unless he decided to go to a website or service like Ashley Madison, which may not have existed in 2005 anyway, we are talking about a very intelligent man who was of the age for his head to play a large part in what he chose to do as far as risk- taking or not risk- taking.

    2) When people reunite or maybe meet and have to communicate through the internet and/ or burner cell phones. over time, you absolutely do get a true feeling of " This is a very trustworthy and exciting person I want to be with" or " This person has some serious baggage and has not gotten counseling for past hurts and traumas".

    3) Sometimes, if an Internet connection is made and continued, photos are exchanged which are maybe a bit sexy on the woman's part but USUALLY NOT sleazy. We know- The Internet is forever. Plus, a woman of worth has self- worth above all else.

    If a woman started being overtly sexual in Internet photos and chats and whatever, it speaks to both desperation and being a gold digger.
    We should remember, he had a higher than average income for that area ( but not for NYC or LA, so it's relative).
    I think men have had access to adult men's magazines for so many years that it would be extremely hard to " lasso a live one" with amateur selfies. JMO. ( No, I've never done this).

    4) More than anything, I hope he left Bellefonte on his terms with his plans made. I hope every one of them came to fruition and that he has had a long and happy life for 13.5 years now.
    I hope there was a loving partner waiting for him somewhere, because as we do get older, being alone, or being " with a partner in name or legal paperwork only" gets extremely difficult and boring when there's no true, solid love and personalities which mesh very well as the foundation.

    Thanks, Tracker, for coming along in this discussion a few years ago and for discarding the wild theories in favor of that which seems most likely to both you and me, and probably many others who read but don't want to post.

    Hi, and thanks for reading to all who do stop by and do care. You do make a difference!

    Edited to add: Because of intuitive things I feel to be true with a great deal of certainty for me, my percentages about what happened are currently-

    WALKAWAY -98%
    FOUL PLAY - 1%
    SUICIDE-1 %
     
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  19. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    My current overall odds:

    First, "Something else," e.g. amnesia, having a health problem and falling into the river, some sort of psychotic break, is well below 1%. It is low enough that it doesn't register and I'll stop listing it separately

    Voluntary: 75%

    Walkaway: 60%

    Suicide: 15%

    Involuntary: 25%

    Romantic Encounter,
    as described above: 20%

    Something else: 5%
     
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  20. Trackergd

    Trackergd SAR Search Manager

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    We are not all that far apart. My point about the change in demeanor is based on how I have observed individuals who have retired or are about to retire from jobs that they love. There is a sense of loss in most cases, notably when they have invested a lot of effort in making changes that have positively impacted the business. In short, a form of sadness. I just witnessed co-worker (grown man) crying last week during a company announcement of his leaving after 18 years. It was an emotional event. No one but RFG and PF know what the level of passion was in their relationship in the weeks and months prior to RFG going missing, tho it may have played a role.

    As you know, there is no substitution for boots and the ground in Lewisburg to take in the air and activity for that time of year, and it helped me form an opinion of the location and what most likely did or did not happen. If someone wanted to take RFG out of the picture, luring him in just does not seem to make sense when a well sprung trap along the rout to Lewisburg would have been much more effective and left a lot less loose ends and evidence to find.
     
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