PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, former district attorney, Bellefonte, 15 Apr 2005 - #17

DeeperSecrets

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Finally, you get into that perennial hobby in Central Pennsylvania Gothic, legacy protection. Tony Gricar said, in the paper, that the public would be "rightfully outraged," if it was found that RFG walked away. They do not want an ending that they think could damage RFG's reputation. They don't want people to think that RFG might have met a woman for a tryst, that he was a participant in some criminal activity, or that walked away. The first two reasons could be motives for murder; the third is where there is the most evidence. Those things could damage his legacy, so they don't want to look.
The same legacy protection was and continues to go on at Penn State in regard to Paterno. That's why I wonder if there's a crossover somewhere with Ray.
 

Black Diamond

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Thinking about the bloodhound they brought in to investigate the SOS parking lot. They say Ray’s scent never left the lot. Well he was seen in the SOS by multiple witnesses. He got in there somehow. Even if he didn’t leave the lot when he parked the car the last time. He was spotted across from Packwood House and in SOS and they didn’t try or were unsuccessful getting the dog to follow any scent where he was spotted. I have also read somewhere that the time elapsed to when the dog was brought in was much too long to rely on it. Just sharing my thoughts and my opinion that the whole bloodhound thing is bad information and should be eliminated from consideration.
 

J. J. in Phila

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Thinking about the bloodhound they brought in to investigate the SOS parking lot. They say Ray’s scent never left the lot. Well he was seen in the SOS by multiple witnesses. He got in there somehow. Even if he didn’t leave the lot when he parked the car the last time. He was spotted across from Packwood House and in SOS and they didn’t try or were unsuccessful getting the dog to follow any scent where he was spotted. I have also read somewhere that the time elapsed to when the dog was brought in was much too long to rely on it. Just sharing my thoughts and my opinion that the whole bloodhound thing is bad information and should be eliminated from consideration.
No, on the question of the time.

The dog was brought in about 15 hours after the car was first found.

RFG was seen across from Packwood House around 2:00 PM and not there after 4:00 PM. All accounts put him in the SoS parking lot after that. The scent would have been fresher in the SoS and there could be other reasons why it was only detected there?
 

acutename

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This was a Q&A session on the CDT.

""Q: Was a search done along state Route 192, the road Gricar said he was on when he was last heard from?

A: Bellefonte police officer Darrel Zaccagni said both state Route 192 and state Route 45 were searched soon after Gricar was reported missing on April 15. A few people came forward and said they saw a red-and-white Mini Cooper -- the same type of car Gricar was driving when he disappeared -- in the area on April 15 and 16, but police could not confirm that the car seen was actually Gricar's.

At least one person reportedly saw the Mini Cooper leaving a stone quarry located along Route 192 about a mile from where the car was found in a Lewisburg parking lot. Zaccagni said police have searched the quarry twice and have talked to quarry workers there, some of whom said they also remember seeing a Mini Cooper driving away from the quarry.

The quarry has two small, shallow sludge ponds, but nothing unusual was found there, Zaccagni said. Bellefonte police officers also walked through a small wooded area near the quarry but found nothing out of the ordinary there, either."


Found this in a 2013 post on this forum. Can’t quote the post so copied/pasted. If this is legit I stand corrected.
"A few people came forward and said they saw a red-and-white Mini Cooper -- the same type of car Gricar was driving when he disappeared -- in the area on April 15 and 16, but police could not confirm that the car seen was actually Gricar's."


Mini Coopers were reintroduced in the US in 2002...

so they were a bit of an oddity even in 2005- how many red ones were likely in central PA in 4/2005?

(and BTW, red only available in 2002 and 2004, and 2005, not in 2003, so less than 30,000 (?) red minis in the USA total ever at that time....)

2002 MINI Cooper Colors - Autobyt​


2003 MINI Cooper Colors - Autobytel

2004 MINI Cooper S Colors - Autobytel

2005 MINI Cooper Colors - Autobytel

 
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J. J. in Phila

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At least 3 red Mini Co
"A few people came forward and said they saw a red-and-white Mini Cooper -- the same type of car Gricar was driving when he disappeared -- in the area on April 15 and 16, but police could not confirm that the car seen was actually Gricar's."


Mini Coopers were reintroduced in the US in 2002...

so they were a bit of an oddity even in 2005- how many red ones were likely in central PA in 4/2005?

(and BTW, red only available in 2002 and 2004, and 2005, not in 2003, so less than 30,000 (?) red minis in the USA total ever at that time....)

2002 MINI Cooper Colors - Autobyt


2003 MINI Cooper Colors - Autobytel

2004 MINI Cooper S Colors - Autobytel

2005 MINI Cooper Colors - Autobytel

There were at least three red Mini Coopers in Lewisburg.
 

J. J. in Phila

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I've heard otherwise at another web site. Supposedly there were only a few in all of PA at that time. I'll check on it.
There was one mentioned in the police report; that was a local resident.

Someone posted here about seeing one with a Maryland plate during the week of 18th. The poster thought it was PEF looking for RFG, but PEF had a PA plate.
 

Black Diamond

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No, on the question of the time.

The dog was brought in about 15 hours after the car was first found.
That 15 hours, then add the 25- 30 hours elapsed from the last sighting of Ray until the car was found and you’re at the 40-45 hour mark. I need to dig up where I found the quote from an expert with tracking dogs saying the elapsed time was too long for the dog to be effective.

If the dog was effective and they had even crossed the street to the sidewalk in front of SOS it’s logical to think the dog would have found Ray’s scent going in the door.

Unless some information has been withheld about it, I think the dog info is not reliable and not worthy of consideration.
 

J. J. in Phila

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That 15 hours, then add the 25- 30 hours elapsed from the last sighting of Ray until the car was found and you’re at the 40-45 hour mark. I need to dig up where I found the quote from an expert with tracking dogs saying the elapsed time was too long for the dog to be effective.

If the dog was effective and they had even crossed the street to the sidewalk in front of SOS it’s logical to think the dog would have found Ray’s scent going in the door.

Unless some information has been withheld about it, I think the dog info is not reliable and not worthy of consideration.
It depends what you mean by the "last sighting."

Witnesses saw him in the SoS on 4/16; it would have been within 24 hours of those times. It is possible that what the dog detected was the scent rafts of RFG that he left in the parking lot sometime during the late morning or early afternoon of 4/16.
 

Betty P

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Hi All,

I recently checked with Websleuths Admin and they have approved posting of the link to the web site for The Final Argument, the podcast and web site about the Ray Gricar disappearance. We had discussed here some of the material from this podcast, but it now has official approval from WS. The Mods have stated that the web site and podcast do have some things that are against TOS here, namely discussion of psychics, etc.


Any ideas about the sketch of a man found in the police files?
 

J. J. in Phila

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Any ideas about the sketch of a man found in the police files?
Snipped for brevity only.

The only composite that I know of in the woman seen in regard to the Southfield sighting. Tony Gricar once said that he could not tell if it was a woman or a man.
 

Betty P

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Snipped for brevity only.

The only composite that I know of in the woman seen in regard to the Southfield sighting. Tony Gricar once said that he could not tell if it was a woman or a man.

Did Tony see the person or someone else?

Forgive my bad memory right now, but I've been eyeballs deep in following the Rhoden Massacre trial. Murders of 8 people in 4 crime scenes by 3 killers and 1 collaborator. The crime scene evidence part is taxing my brain, haha.
 

Black Diamond

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It depends what you mean by the "last sighting."

Witnesses saw him in the SoS on 4/16; it would have been within 24 hours of those times. It is possible that what the dog detected was the scent rafts of RFG that he left in the parking lot sometime during the late morning or early afternoon of 4/16.


I still have not dug into the 4/16 sightings enough to formulate an opinion on their validity. I’ve read several people’s opinions that the 4/16 sightings are not nearly as reliable as those on 4/15.

But if Ray actually was inside SOS on 4/16 it is more reason for discounting the dog. If the dog didn’t pick up his scent near the SOS itself or if they didn’t have the dog try around the SOS and limited it to that small parking lot, then how the search was conducted and any interpretation of what the dog did are much too unreliable to take into serious consideration.
 

J. J. in Phila

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Did Tony see the person or someone else?

Forgive my bad memory right now, but I've been eyeballs deep in following the Rhoden Massacre trial. Murders of 8 people in 4 crime scenes by 3 killers and 1 collaborator. The crime scene evidence part is taxing my brain, haha.
I do not know if it was the same person.

There was a witness, a retired police officer that was a composite artist that identified a man he saw in Southfield, MI as RFG. There was a woman with him. The cop did a sketch of the woman. Tony, who saw the sketch, could tell if it was a woman or man.

The Southfield sighting was on the Friday of the Memorial Day weekend, 2005. The cop was at a restaurant with his daughter; thought he knew him from someplace and spoke to him. He got home, and happened to see a program on RFG being rerun on CNN. He called his daughter and asked her to turn it on. They agreed that it was RFG and he called the Southfield police.
 

J. J. in Phila

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I still have not dug into the 4/16 sightings enough to formulate an opinion on their validity. I’ve read several people’s opinions that the 4/16 sightings are not nearly as reliable as those on 4/15.

But if Ray actually was inside SOS on 4/16 it is more reason for discounting the dog. If the dog didn’t pick up his scent near the SOS itself or if they didn’t have the dog try around the SOS and limited it to that small parking lot, then how the search was conducted and any interpretation of what the dog did are much too unreliable to take into serious consideration.
We do not have a complete list of the 4/16/05 sightings.

Craig Bennett is reliable; he's a local businessman that went to U. Penn. The other two were staff at the diner in the SoS. There may be others.

Not necessarily. Different surfaces can retain scent differenty. You can run into problems with scent do to heavy vehiclar and foot traffic. It is also possible that he was in the parking later and his scent was fresher.
 

Betty P

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I do not know if it was the same person.

There was a witness, a retired police officer that was a composite artist that identified a man he saw in Southfield, MI as RFG. There was a woman with him. The cop did a sketch of the woman. Tony, who saw the sketch, could tell if it was a woman or man.

The Southfield sighting was on the Friday of the Memorial Day weekend, 2005. The cop was at a restaurant with his daughter; thought he knew him from someplace and spoke to him. He got home, and happened to see a program on RFG being rerun on CNN. He called his daughter and asked her to turn it on. They agreed that it was RFG and he called the Southfield police.

Ok, now I remember that one. I hadn't seen a composite drawing, but that would make sense and explain why Ms. Knight found it in the file.

As a general rule, I don't put a lot of weight in witness sightings of missing persons in locations that are far from where the person went missing. They seldom seem to pan out to anything. I thought perhaps the sketch was of someone seen with or around Ray at the time he went missing.
 

J. J. in Phila

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Ok, now I remember that one. I hadn't seen a composite drawing, but that would make sense and explain why Ms. Knight found it in the file.

As a general rule, I don't put a lot of weight in witness sightings of missing persons in locations that are far from where the person went missing. They seldom seem to pan out to anything. I thought perhaps the sketch was of someone seen with or around Ray at the time he went missing.

Well, that is the only sketch that I have heard about. There could be others.
 

acutename

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That 15 hours, then add the 25- 30 hours elapsed from the last sighting of Ray until the car was found and you’re at the 40-45 hour mark. I need to dig up where I found the quote from an expert with tracking dogs saying the elapsed time was too long for the dog to be effective.

If the dog was effective and they had even crossed the street to the sidewalk in front of SOS it’s logical to think the dog would have found Ray’s scent going in the door.

Unless some information has been withheld about it, I think the dog info is not reliable and not worthy of consideration.
when i think about dog tracking. I think about a sweating fugitive, on a trail with no other humans- and then I think of a freshly washed man in clean clothing with socks, shoes, aftershave?, on pavement.... so I read this:
not sure what they teach official K9 handlers....and I do not know if it rained around 4/15-16/05?
 
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