PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, former district attorney, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #17

Discussion in 'Cold Cases' started by J. J. in Phila, Oct 1, 2018.

  1. Pink Panther

    Pink Panther Well-Known Member

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    I am so impressed JJ that you are still here as diligent as ever trying to get to the bottom of this disappearance. I have not been on for a very long while and here you are still! I admire your tenacity.
     


  2. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    Snipped for brevity.

    That was Judge Brown and the court administrator, Shotts, on March 9, 2005. That vacation and jury selections were the only things listed from October through December. Jury selection is done by the Jury Commissioners at regular intervals and doesn't involve the DA's Office at all.

    The calendars don't make any of the scenarios stronger.
     
  3. SeekingJana

    SeekingJana Well-Known Member

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    If you're saying that D.A. Gricar was not involved with the conversation between Judge Brown and the court administrator Shotts, then why would he be 1) Involved in their conversation and 2) Why would he say he was not going to be in town? I'm not sure who the original source was for this entire interaction all these many years later, of course.

    In the context which you've placed it, Ray seems to be " out of place" and also speaking out of turn UNLESS part of the scenario is forgotten or missing.
    It makes no sense now, not that the non-sensical part is your fault at all, of course. :)
    This is very old source material, and MOST of it was definitely hearsay repeated as factual from a 4th or 5th person in the courthouse.
     
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  4. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    Snipped for brevity.

    No. RFG was involved with setting the trial, but there is a reason for him saying "I won't be here," that is not related to his disappearance.
     
  5. Kittybunny

    Kittybunny Well-Known Member

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    Some really great and interesting discussion here lately. It's just such a baffling case with no clear direction and roadblocks at every pass.

    He committed suicide - OK, but where's the body?
    He walked away - OK, but how did he get out of Lewisburg?
    He was killed - no strong evidence for it - but probably the strongest possibility IMO - he gets in another car and is taken far away and disposed of. But why would he? Or was it someone he knew and trusted, at least to a certain extent?

    And round and round and round we go...
     
  6. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    As I like to say that "All of the evidence points to walkaway. Most of the evidence points to foul play."

    With walkaway, there can be, effectively, a way to rule it out. There are minimum ways that RFG could have gotten out of Lewisburg. If those can (or have been) ruled out, walkaway becomes much less likely.
     
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  7. minazoe

    minazoe Well-Known Member

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    I say follow the money..give me the full picture and show me where Ray's money went. Is there an explanation? maybe he paid cash for a home..maybe he didn't finance things..maybe his previous wife spent it....okay...maybe... but still need a logical explanation..because his spending was very minimal over the few years they went back.
    so he should have had some money...its not like he went years without a job or had a huge setback..being so frugal it makes me wonder because it's unlikely that he didn't pay attention to his money. It contradicts what we know about Ray.

    mOO
     
  8. Wilma_W

    Wilma_W Well-Known Member

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    The very low amount of money is the biggest puzzle to me too. It is the primary reason I lean toward 'walk away'. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but why did he leave such a very small amount of money? Where did the rest of it go?
     
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  9. SeekingJana

    SeekingJana Well-Known Member

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    One of the theories I consider fairly strongly is that he invested in off- shore investments and had overseas accounts ( For example, Grand Cayman Island is or was a tax shelter haven, traditionally Switzerland was as well until after 9/11).

    There's enough missing links in the money chain to believe there could have been sizeable deposits/ investments in offshore investments. Unfortunately for his tax shelters which were legal, offshore banking in the USA became both costly and time- consuming to retrieve after the US laws and tax laws changed drastically following 9/11. There were also limits put on foreign transactions, which a direct transfer or series of direct transfers would have probably been subject to.

    It might have taken a prudent and careful person 4.5 years to set up a new living plan that included accessing a sizeable amount of savings and other personal investments and possibly relocating somewhere else and enjoying the fruits of his labor.

    One thing to remember: He may have left with the help of relatives in high places in Slovenia, stayed gone long enough to move the hidden money to this trustworthy group of people outside the country that he had lifelong ties to, stayed with them until the case had lost steam.

    Because he likely did NOT anticipate ending up on a national Missing Persons database and watch list, either relocated to parts unknown in a foreign country as a backup plan where he could have dual citizenship ( in Slovenia), or headed to the Pacific Northwest, which we know many people have done since the area was able to be traversed by outlaw gunslingers and those who wanted life in the wilderness at least a century ago, living a low visibility life while still being able to see his daughter and her family as they grew. He would know not to be seen out and about, especially with his family, and he would use an alias in the US, at least. He probably also could have settled in Slovenia, the country of his ancestors.

    There are SO MANY things he could have done other than been murdered or committed suicide and all are based in general fact, and some are based on his singular life, not a general plan for the public on how to disappear.
     
  10. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    Second episode of Final Argument. She has the forensic report on the Mini.
     
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  11. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    No smoke/ash listed in the police report. Locksmith who opened car said that the Mini had a new car smell. The deal is amazing. Episodes - Final Argument Podcast
     
  12. Wilma_W

    Wilma_W Well-Known Member

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    Listening now. No cigarette ash in the car and no smoke smell? No fingerprints on the inside of the car? This is getting good!
     
  13. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    The lack of fingerprints was reported, and they indicated that that there were no "usable" prints.

    From the dust on the car, it has parked there for 12 hours at least (6:30 AM on 4/16).
     
  14. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    It may or may not be important, but there were a number of breath fresheners in the Mini.
     
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  15. minazoe

    minazoe Well-Known Member

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    NO CIG ASH ???? busy day been dying to listen..okay I listened.

    SMELLED LIKE NEW CAR NO ASH NO SMELL...

    I cant wait to hear what she says about Ray in the next..not sure about handwriting analysis , but what the hell..let's hear it!

    Im trying to figure out if I can get in the car ..drive a considerable ways, and never leave a print... I think in order to leave no prints is harder than that because what about all the times the car has been driven...? you would have to start with a car that is already wiped down. So how likely is it? it's not!

    very strange...NO ASH ! no ash..omigod. wth? mOO
     
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  16. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    There were prints, but they were smudged.

    The police took the floor mats, so it is possible that they did get ash and it wasn't reported.
     
  17. minazoe

    minazoe Well-Known Member

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    smudged print on the water bottle in the back holder. right? that's it, right?

    you are more excited by the mints and the ash info doesn't phase you ? because you think the ash still has legs... I mean the ash thing didn't come from nowhere, right? and the floor mats were taken and this is the origin of the ash story?

    tell me your thoughts on the breath mint collection...

    mOO
     
  18. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    The water bottle was known, and the prints on it were smudged; it had RFG's DNA in it, so he obviously used it.

    In my actual consulting job, at times I have to be close to the client, whispering in his ear. I always have something to make my breath smell better. One of my doctors had small treatment room. Same thing, for the same reason. Meeting a woman, same thing. Was it usual for RFG to have something for his breath in the Mini? If not, that could be an indication that he was meeting someone, that he was going to be in close contact with in Lewisburg or in another vehicle. It probably would not be an indication that he wanted his breath to smell good while he was killing himself.

    The cell phone was turned off, which could be an indication he wanted to save his battery. However, there was a charger in the car, which kind of rules out that theory.

    The locksmith didn't smell smoke, but we don't know if he went into the Mini. The trooper may have entered and smelled it. The inventory may not shown the ash (PSP did remove the floor mats) and the smell of smoke. It lists items in the care, change, chargers, pamphlets on antique shops in glove compartment, but not a smell.

    There was a tee shirt for the Pennsylvania Homicide Investigators Association under the seat and a couple of umbrellas. $5.69 in change was in the cup holder. I'd only want to know if one was a 1964 Kennedy half dollar.
     
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  19. J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Verified Insider

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    I double checked. The water bottle was found at the "rear of the center console." it would been accessible by someone driving.

    The brand was Northern Clear Water (I had that from another source). There was a distributor in Milesburg when I checked, so it was locally available.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021
  20. minazoe

    minazoe Well-Known Member

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    DBM..mOO
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021

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