Discussion in 'Trials' started by bessie, Dec 12, 2014.
Can a ME rule determine if a drowning was not suicide? Especially after 5 weeks? If so how?
Yes, I believe that is correct in cases like this. I personally look at the family's reaction - if they feel comfortable with the findings then what can anyone else really do? I still would like to know how Andrew Jarzyk fell into the Hudson while out on a jog after hanging out with friends...but the case was closed. No foul play was accepted. We may never know how Shane fell in and if it was truly accidental but it will be up to the family because they probably have the most information.
While researching news stories during Shane's case, I came across an article that still baffles me. It was where LE and the ME disagreed on a stabbing in that same area 3 years ago. ME said homicide / LE ruled it suicide. ME ended up changing the cause of death to suicide. I often read where LE will change their decision based on the ME report...but this just sounded so odd. I have no idea what evidence was presented to get an ME to move away from his/her decision but it's a perfect example of a final decision sitting well but still having to accept it. Here is the article if interested. It's off topic but it left me wondering if the real estate value was more important...
The FBI never said they thought he was in the river/water. What makes you say that?
It seems to me like in these water cases while you can determine drowning, it cannot be determined what led to the drowning which is where the questions come in. Did they voluntarily jump aka suicide? Did they fall in aka accident? Were they pushed aka foul play? "Drowning" just tells part of the story
Not without other factors. If the family says, my son is suicidal & he ended up in a river. Then yes.
If his wrists are slashed or an overdose of medication/drugs is indicated - they can rule in that favor.
It's up to the family to give the ME clues to cause of death. Also law enforcement plays a huge role & is in constant contact with each other
This is why I feel like 'accidental drowning' is a a misleading assumption and not actually what the ME determines. No witnesses, no surveillance, we don't know 100% for sure what led to the drowning. JMO. And that doesnt mean Im saying it couldnt have been an accident
Kevin Verbrugghe said the body had been released to the family for burial and that a funeral Mass is scheduled Friday at a church in the Manayunk neighborhood of the city, the Inquirer reported. http://news.yahoo.com/pennsylvania-college-students-death-ruled-accidental-drowning-222431659.html
I followed the Majoras case very closely and many of us did a lot of research and shared what we found--but I am going on memory here--re the autopsy--IIRC, accidental is almost a given unless there is powerful evidence to the contrary and re the toxicology--(not sure what remains in system/tissue after this length of time) but alcohol comes back quickly and they were able to determine that Sarah had a very high alcohol content (after 5-6 days in the water)--as to other drugs/toxins--I have heard that takes a couple weeks to get real results...they can do a quick screen but also still have hair/tissue analysis and if the death is "suspicious" or unattended (in an otherwise healthy individual) I think those things MIGHT have to be done as part of a complete autopsy--but again going from memory...
Exactly. Who in their right mind would believe this is a suicide?...No one fought it. Family let it go- maybe she doesn't have any family. Clearly, that was a suicide. The blind eye of the justice system.
Shane Michael, age 21, of Roxborough. We were blessed to receive Shane into our family on August 29, 1993 and will miss him forever. Shane is loved by many people, including his Mom and Pappy, Karen (nee Verbrugghe) and Kevin Montgomery, and his brother Thomas LaCorte. Shane shared a special relationship with his Nana Mary (Verbrugghe) and his late grandparents, Judie and John Montgomery and his late uncle Kenny. He will forever be cherished by his uncles, Arte, Pat, Frederick, his godfather Kevin, and his aunts Marianne and Chatty. Cousins Maureen and Timothy will always hold Shane close in their hearts. Shane was a 2011 graduate of Roman Catholic High School and a senior at West Chester University. Through his ability to laugh, sarcasm, flair for music, welcoming personality, love for the Eagles, Temple basketball, and “Da U”, Shane drew people unto himself. Many friends, other family members, and those he encountered were blessed by his love of life. Family and friends are invited to his viewing Thursday, 5-9 PM and Friday 9 AM at St John the Baptist Church, 119 Rector Street, and to participate in his funeral mass 10 AM. Int Calvary Cemetery. Family respectfully requests donations in Shane’s name to Garden State Underwater Recovery Unit, P.O.Box 404, Milford, NJ. 08848-1210, or Friends of St John the Baptist, 146 Rector St., Phila., Pa 19127, would be appreciated by his family.
With that said... The family has found closure and wants their nightmare over. They just want to bury their son.
PLT, people will continue to question because the conclusion in these cases, including the ridiculous suicide by stabbing case, do not make sense without any real evidence to support them. My position in the water related cases such as Majoras, Jarzyk, this one as well as missing cases of people who left bars such as Brian Shaffer and Kyle Fleishmann, is that LE takes the path of least resistance. Whether this is due to limited resources, caseload volume, pressure from family, the fact remains that for some of us, these cases are not pursued or solved to our satisfaction. This is in no way a slight to LE, as I worked closely with LE in another state for years. This is simply a commentary on the realities and limitations of justice.
I know it can be very difficult to accept a COD, but I truly don't get this. Was Shane tossing his keys and they ended up in the water so he found it necessary to retrieve them? Did someone push him into the water? How does someone accidently drown in water they have no reason to be in? What, he decided to go for a dip on a cold November night?
They did say it in reports. The links are posted here...somewhere.
Land searches haulted and all the efforts were river searches.
Karen Montgomery stated- I now know my son is in that river, we just want him home- we won't give up until we find him.
bolded by me, I ruled this out in my head because he his phone was still in his pocket. I think he would have taken his phone out and put it on land before going in to retrieve keys.
A big mystery is the keys being 30 ft from the wall.
Very well put--I've even heard of occasions were the ME used accidental instead of suicide--maybe for insurance, saving face? I don't know--IF there is nothing but his body--no injuries, no signs of struggle etc, no video, note etc--what else can LE/ME use to assess the situation? It is a tough pill to swallow but if there is no other information out there, they can't hold the family up from burying their child without good reason....they obviously don't have anything material....
That's why the cops usually handle the media questions and not the family, but that's not what happened in this case, everything was from civilians or outside agency's and not Phila. PD. Another thing is all of the important evidence that we have been told of has been found by someone other than Phila PD. The keys and recovery of the body was all from the Garden State guys, the statement of recovery was from GS and the debit card retrieval was from KevinC after one or two failed attempts from Phila, PD to recover it. I think the debit card recovery can be explained easily though just by thinking about what KevinC told us ''he's in the business'' .
Ok, so they ruled Shane's death accidental, which does not surprise me. Among practicing Catholics, this is vitally important, since a person who commits suicide cannot have a funeral mass, and cannot be buried in consecrated ground with the rest of their family. I know this, because when I was in college, my mother's sister committed suicide and was treated to the same. I believe, without clear evidence (like a note and obvious manner of death), it's treated like an accident. I can't imagine that his family would want it ruled anything other than accidental, and that is how it will remain. My heart is breaking for this family.
One Problem about them turning over the card to me is they should have given it to Law Enforcement. I am of the Belief that had I not gone on there that Sunday night the card would have been tossed out in the trash further removing Kildare's from this incident!!
I think times have changed a bit here in recent years--a local funeral director did kill himself here, had a high mass and was buried in a Catholic cemetery just a couple years back...I think the church (as a whole--locally IDK?) has eased up on that for the sake of the families but I agree regardless of what the reality is-- we'll likely never know-and that's okay with me--as long as Shane's family finds some peace--I think it important to follow their lead....
Perfect example of another ridiculous case is that of Chris Jenkins. Was found 4 months after he went missing on Halloween night out drinking with friends. How did they find him, in the water ON HIS BACK with his arms crossed over his chest and ALL of his clothes still on, even the oversized shoes to the costume he was wearing.......and what do you think they initially said was the reason he was in the water? SURPRISE.........accidental or suicide. Really???? SMH
Here is some info on that case: