GUILTY PA - Tom, 51, Lisa, 47, & Kevin Haines, 16, murdered, Manheim Twp, 12 May 2007

[PrayersForMaura]

Updates:

Investigators, including those from the FBI and state police, are taking the investigation into the deaths of Tom Haines, 50, Lisa Haines 47, and their son Kevin Haines, 16, in many directions, including at Manheim Township High School, where Kevin was a sophomore.

Police said they were at the high school this morning, following up on some interviews and looking into Kevin's history at the school.

Investigators are also still at the scene of the crime, the family home at 85 Peach Lane in the Blossom Hill development. Police said on Monday that the family was stabbed to death inside the home. Tom and Lisa Haines were found in their bedroom. Kevin Haines was found in a hallway.

http://www.wgal.com/news/13323063/detail.html

 

[JDB]

I just read the news on this this morning. An I agree with some here. This was done by someone that knew them.No one kills anybody just because. And with no sign of forced entry or any sign of robbery it makes you wonder .

 

[misterallgood]

I just read the news on this this morning. An I agree with some here. This was done by someone that knew them.No one kills anybody just because. And with no sign of forced entry or any sign of robbery it makes you wonder .

The part in bold just isn't true, JDB. People do sometimes kill "just because."

BUT, it's still pretty rare. I think the killer knew the family, and I think he/they knew Kevin, specifically. I think young people or a young person committed this crime.

Steve/Mr. A.

 

[christine2448]

The part in bold just isn't true, JDB. People do sometimes kill "just because."

BUT, it's still pretty rare. I think the killer knew the family, and I think he/they knew Kevin, specifically. I think young people or a young person committed this crime.

Steve/Mr. A.

Why Kevin and not the daughter/sister?

Interesting theory. Always love reading your opinions, theories, etc, Steve. Hopefully we will know sooner than later.

 

[JDB]

The part in bold just isn't true, JDB. People do sometimes kill "just because."

BUT, it's still pretty rare. I think the killer knew the family, and I think he/they knew Kevin, specifically. I think young people or a young person committed this crime.

Steve/Mr. A.

Steve I sit correct. I should have added it is rare.I think this had something to do with one of the two kids.

 

[misterallgood]

Why Kevin and not the daughter/sister?

Interesting theory. Always love reading your opinions, theories, etc, Steve. Hopefully we will know sooner than later.

Why not Maggie?

A. She had something to do with it. I don't believe that, at the moment.

B. She'd just returned from Bucknell two days before. I wonder, if the family was targeted, if the killer simply didn't know that Maggie was home. This idea would lead me to suspect a younger, criminally unsophisticated person.

Also, I think two killers would have meant a different outcome. I get this awful feeling that someone graduated that night from creepy-crawling, burglary, low-level thrill crimes to something much, much worse.

If I'm wrong -- well, I hope I am. Speculating about crime is the only time I often express the hope that I'm wrong, because the things one can come up with while speculating are often scarier than the reality.

Though in this case, I don't know what's scarier than three family members stabbed to death in the middle of the night.

Steve/Mr. A

 

[Pinkhammer]

I believe this was a totally random multiple killing, like that one in Richmond last year.

Anyone who knew the family would have known there were four people in the house that night, and they would not have left a possible witness alive.

The family were quiet and religious. The mom taught at a Church of Brethren kindergarten.

There are a lot of disturbed kids at Manheim Township H.S., however. The son, a good and well-liked boy, could have caught the eye of some Goth black trenchcoat nut.

We will no doubt find out soon. In multiple kinife slashings, the perp usually cuts himself during the frenzy, and leaves his own DNA behind.

 

[PSUfan]

I had mentioned earlier that the family was preparing to do some remodeling, and the company I work for was contracted to do the work. I knew our estimator had been in the home, measuring, not to long ago, and I wondered if other contractors may have been measuring and giving estimates, thus maybe knowing the layout of the home. I also wondered if their fingerprints would show up.

So, I talked to our estimator today, and told him that he should call the detectives and give them this information.

He did call. They had not known about the upcoming remodeling plans, in spite of the deposit received by my company. They were thankful to talk to our estimator, and spent about 10-15 minutes asking him questions. The questions they asked were odd.

on edit: the local news just reported that the investigators are working on "victimology, they want to know who this family was" With that in mind, they asked our estimator about his impression of the family, if the parents were both home when he measured.. if they both came into our showroom together, if they seemed to get along well, and agree on selections. Basically, were they on the same page? Yes, they were, and yes they did get along.

 

[luthersmama]

In the press conference yesterday, they said the mother told her quietly to get out and get help, so the mother mustve known that the perps were within earshot. They did not know if the father was alive at the time.

My hunch is that the mother had been stabbed and was sitting up trying to get up to get help. She was "quiet" because she was dying. The killer was already out of the house.

 

[PSUfan]

My hunch is that the mother had been stabbed and was sitting up trying to get up to get help. She was "quiet" because she was dying. The killer was already out of the house.

I have thought that might be true. I wonder why no blood was mentioned. Also, I think the daughter did not see the son laying in the hallway. Maybe the killer was in his bedroom when the daughter was on her way out the door.

 

[luthersmama]

I have thought that might be true. I wonder why no blood was mentioned. Also, I think the daughter did not see the son laying in the hallway. Maybe the killer was in his bedroom when the daughter was on her way out the door.

I suppose it was dark. If she had on dark pajamas any blood might not have shown. Without knowing the layout of the house it is hard to tell whether she could have seen her brother.

My prediction: This is going to turn out to have been done by a "friend" of Kevin's. It will have elements of fantasy/role-playing games. It will be someone who did not know that Maggie was home. I think the "victimology" they are focusing on is something to do with Kevin. Reading what I have been able to find about him, including that he was "reserved" and "didn't make new friends easily", I think he was the kind of super-smart but socially inept boy that gets sucked into fantasy and role-playing and met up with someone in that arena who didn't know where the game ended.

 

[misterallgood]

I suppose it was dark. If she had on dark pajamas any blood might not have shown. Without knowing the layout of the house it is hard to tell whether she could have seen her brother.

My prediction: This is going to turn out to have been done by a "friend" of Kevin's. It will have elements of fantasy/role-playing games. It will be someone who did not know that Maggie was home. I think the "victimology" they are focusing on is something to do with Kevin. Reading what I have been able to find about him, including that he was "reserved" and "didn't make new friends easily", I think he was the kind of super-smart but socially inept boy that gets sucked into fantasy and role-playing and met up with someone in that arena who didn't know where the game ended.

I'm beginning to believe you may be very close with the above, luthersmama. Article I just read indicated that Maggie told police she never actually saw Kevin's body. She heard noises coming from Kevin's room, specifically. May mean nothing, but it rang a bell for me, and I was already wondering some of what you expressed.

I keep thinking of someone like Scott Dyleski, the killer of Pam Vitale, defense attorney Dan Horowitz's wife.

The FBI is investigating, too. That, combined with the Manheim Twp pd's warning people to be vigilant, paints pretty creepy picture.

I've got loved ones who are moving to that exact area in 2 months. Sure hope an arrest is made before then.

Steve/Mr. A.

 

[PSUfan]

I suppose it was dark. If she had on dark pajamas any blood might not have shown. Without knowing the layout of the house it is hard to tell whether she could have seen her brother.

My prediction: This is going to turn out to have been done by a "friend" of Kevin's. It will have elements of fantasy/role-playing games. It will be someone who did not know that Maggie was home. I think the "victimology" they are focusing on is something to do with Kevin. Reading what I have been able to find about him, including that he was "reserved" and "didn't make new friends easily", I think he was the kind of super-smart but socially inept boy that gets sucked into fantasy and role-playing and met up with someone in that arena who didn't know where the game ended.

I hope this isn't true. My hunch was always that the daughter knew something.

Another unfounded rumor is that this was a gang initiation. Lancaster City has its share of gangs. Another rumor is that a sword of some sort was used, which would certainly be in line with your hunch.

I hope this is solved soon. It has to be. The killer/s wouldve surely left DNA under fingernails.. hair, fibers, etc.

I wonder why it took a full day to reveal that it was a stabbing.

 

[PSUfan]

I'm beginning to believe you may be very close with the above, luthersmama. Article I just read indicated that Maggie told police she never actually saw Kevin's body. She heard noises coming from Kevin's room, specifically. May mean nothing, but it rang a bell for me, and I was already wondering some of what you expressed.

I keep thinking of someone like Scott Dyleski, the killer of Pam Vitale, defense attorney Dan Horowitz's wife.

The FBI is investigating, too. That, combined with the Manheim Twp pd's warning people to be vigilant, paints pretty creepy picture.

I've got loved ones who are moving to that exact area in 2 months. Sure hope an arrest is made before then.

Steve/Mr. A.

I love this area.. Manheim Township (the district next to me) has beautiful neighborhoods and great schools. I have to believe that this was a fluke, along with the other recent flukes.

 

[Shadow205]

I'm going to throw something out here in reference to things are not always how they seem. I know of one case where a middle aged man who was probably about 6'4 250lbs cut his throat and almost decapitated himself with a butcher knife. Of course when LE arrived on the scene it was thought to be a homicide. After further investigation it was found to be a suicide. It sure didn't look like a suicide but it was.
Another case a young male who was probably in his 30's stabbed himself to death. There were numerous superficial wounds, several more serious and then the fatal wound. He had also cut off his penis. It looked like a massacre had taken place inside that house. He had such high amounts of drugs and alcohol in his system that he evidently didn't feel any pain.

I am not saying that I think that this was a murder suicide. I just wanted to share the above to point out that sometimes things really are not what they seem.

 

[PSUfan]

I'm going to throw something out here in reference to things are not always how they seem. I know of one case where a middle aged man who was probably about 6'4 250lbs cut his throat and almost decapitated himself with a butcher knife. Of course when LE arrived on the scene it was thought to be a homicide. After further investigation it was found to be a suicide. It sure didn't look like a suicide but it was.
Another case a young male who was probably in his 30's stabbed himself to death. There were numerous superficial wounds, several more serious and then the fatal wound. He had also cut off his penis. It looked like a massacre had taken place inside that house. He had such high amounts of drugs and alcohol in his system that he evidently didn't feel any pain.

I am not saying that I think that this was a murder suicide. I just wanted to share the above to point out that sometimes things really are not what they seem.

Police have unequiva.. unequivicalley.. hehe.. police have stated with confidence that this is not a murder suicide. Besides, if the couple was in trouble, why would they be starting the process of an awesome bathroom remodel?

But, like you said, things are not always as they seem.

It is good to discuss this with ya'all and to hear your thoughts. I wish I had been here when the Amish shootings happened. And the Ludwig/Borden killing , and especially when the JesseDeeWise mass murder happened. That was very very close to me.

 

[Shadow205]

I hope this isn't true. My hunch was always that the daughter knew something.

Another unfounded rumor is that this was a gang initiation. Lancaster City has its share of gangs. Another rumor is that a sword of some sort was used, which would certainly be in line with your hunch.

I hope this is solved soon. It has to be. The killer/s would surely left DNA under fingernails.. hair, fibers, etc.

I wonder why it took a full day to reveal that it was a stabbing.

MS 13 first arrived in the USA in California in the 1980’s. That state continues to have the largest concentration of members. However, recently the gang has experienced a growth spurt making it the fastest growing gang in America both in numbers and territory. Virginia, South Carolina, Maryland and other eastern states are now experiencing the impact of this gang. Pennsylvania has mobilized a training team to spread the word across that state. As they say, “…not to frighten, but to raise awareness.”

<snip>

Their principle weapon is the machete, a large knife designed for crops but in the hands of the MS 13’s a weapon of terror.

http://www.keystosaferschools.com/ms-13.htm

A machete could be confused with a sword. It is certainly possible that this could be a gang initiation but I am leaning more toward someone known to a family member at this point. Of course my opinion on that could change at any minute.

 

[luthersmama]

I'm beginning to believe you may be very close with the above, luthersmama. Article I just read indicated that Maggie told police she never actually saw Kevin's body. She heard noises coming from Kevin's room, specifically. May mean nothing, but it rang a bell for me, and I was already wondering some of what you expressed.

I keep thinking of someone like Scott Dyleski, the killer of Pam Vitale, defense attorney Dan Horowitz's wife.

The FBI is investigating, too. That, combined with the Manheim Twp pd's warning people to be vigilant, paints pretty creepy picture.

I've got loved ones who are moving to that exact area in 2 months. Sure hope an arrest is made before then.

Steve/Mr. A.

There was a murder many years ago in my home town, after I had moved away, in which a geeky young genius apparently killed his father, brother, stepmother and nephew. Fantasy role playing computer games figured into it. It was the subject of a book: Most Likely to Succeed. My nephew was in his class in high school and was questioned. I had known his co-conspirator some years earlier and knew he was "trouble". Google "Wiley Gates" and "Damian Rossney" and you'll get the whole story.

There was another murder a few years ago, can't remember where, in which a young man obsessed with role playing games killed his parents. One clue was a pile of burning clothes somewhere in the middle of the night. Anyone else remember that one?

I think that Manheim Township and Lancaster County are safe. I live just a few miles to the east. All of the murders, with the exception of the bizarre Amish schoolhouse shooting,have been "domestic" or otherwise explained. Well, there is that one about the guy in Elizabethtown that is unsolved.....but it sounds like that may have something to do with his business.

Anyway, I don't believe there is a random slasher on the loose.

 

[poco]

The latest update - Lancaster New Era - 5/16/07.

http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/204275

 

[PSUfan]

The latest update - Lancaster New Era - 5/16/07.

http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/204275

You beat me to it! The update says that the mother was stabbed once, in the stomach, and the father and son were stabbed multiple times. So the mother may have been dying when she quietly told the daughter to go get help. That seems likely.. the father already dead, and the son scuffling with the killer.