Patsy had Dissociative Identity Disorder

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Dragognosis, Feb 11, 2019.

  1. Dragognosis

    Dragognosis Active Member

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    "If she had DID, I would expect it to be fairly apparent in that section that there was something wrong with her memory."

    The content of her recollection would have to be compared to an independant complilation of life events to disclose any discrepancies due to amnesia. She couldn't accomplish both therefor her subjective recounting cannot be taken as authoritative for anything but the host persona. :)
     
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  2. Dragognosis

    Dragognosis Active Member

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    "It's an issue of technical terminology,"

    Only to those whose paychecks depend on such things.
     
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  3. MaryNo

    MaryNo Active Member

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    I know very little on the subject of DID to ever debate it. I've seen enough here and there, to say this feels right to me. I've felt for YEARS that Patsy did this; premeditated, and a result of her own relationship with her father. I don't feel it was John that was molesting JonBenet, instead, my opinion only, the same man that molested Patsy.
     
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  4. lsv7

    lsv7 Active Member

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    And to people that care about people with mental illnesses beyond their usefulness in a murder theory. Repeatedly incorrectly classifying dissociative identity disorder as a personality disorder would be offensive to many people that have it because it discounts that they have this disorder because of something terrible that was done to them. You are minimizing that they are victims through your ignorance. I'm not one of the people that would be offended personally by it, but I think it is important to respect people that would be and that includes the majority of people with DID that I know.

    Borderline personality disorder is not dissociative identity disorder and does not include extensive enough dissociation to fit your theory. The biggest problem is that someone with BPD does not experience amnesia. Their parts are also not distinct enough to be considered alters and do not act independently.

    One of the most uncomfortable aspects of talking about mental illnesses that are a result of trauma is that it has to include a discussion of how different severities of trauma typically cause different severities of mental illness. The average narcissistic parent probably would not be enough to have most psychiatrists be comfortable with a DID diagnosis, which is very different from a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder. If you want to make this argument, I think you would need to include the possibility that Patsy was molested by her father. This isn't to say that any form of abuse is less important or valid than others, but this is a very rare disorder and includes trauma severity as part of the diagnosis. In a theraputic setting, I'm usually the one arguing to let people have more time to open up about their traumatic experiences, so talking about this part of things is a little out of my comfort zone.

    Dissociative identity disorder is not a personality disorder. People only develop dissociative identity disorder by having something horrific happen to them when they are a child. Most mental health professionals theorize that the latest that someone could develop DID is 10. Nothing that I said meant that people would have been picking up on signs of a personality disorder. I was suggesting that people woud have noticed either signs of her severe mental health condition or effects of the abuse. There is also self-harm and substance abuse as coping mechonisms. Instead of comparing DID to a personality disorder, it can be a lot like experiencing psychosis, which is hard to hide for your entire life. Severe dissociation can cause people to behave in ways that are very obviously signs that they need mental health treatment.

    Have you ever seen anyone give a history of Patsy's life that is considerably different from what she gives in her interview? It would not be small details. I'm younger than Patsy was at the time she was inverviewed and have a less severe level of dissociation than she does in your theory, and if I were to have that same conversation there would be things that were very obviously wrong. Like five to ten years off from what actually happened.

    It also doesn't seem likely to me that an alter would take over only for hiding the murder. It fits fictional depictions of dissociation but not the reality. Patsy would have been under tons of stress every time she was with police or spoke in public about the murder, which would cause her to dissociate. Part of the reason that alters exist is to protect the host from distress. The host would not take over just because the alters were not needed to hide a crime.

    In your theory, Patsy is also only experiencing the elements of dissociation that are most helpful for covering up a murder. It is entirely possible that instead of blocking out that she fed her daughter pineapple, she could have forgotten that pineapple was edible. It would have also been possible for her to react to stress by completely forgetting who she is or that she had a daughter. I don't have DID, and I still once forgot I had a face when I was at my most stressed.
     
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  5. Dragognosis

    Dragognosis Active Member

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    Ok then.
     
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  6. mickey2942

    mickey2942 Well-Known Member

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    I dislike theories that create monsters out of victims. Lots of people have traumatic experiences as a child, and do not become adults with personality disorders, or disassociative disorders.

    When I worked at the prison, I became suspect at every single story about child sexual abuse, yes, some of the people there had been abused as children. But not all of them. Nor do I believe that borderline Personality disorder is always linked to being abused as a child. My theory is that people who have Borderline Personality Disorders are chronic liars, about almost everything, including stories about their childhood.
     
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  7. lsv7

    lsv7 Active Member

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    You are correct that Borderline Personality Disorder does not require having been abused as a child or to have experienced any trauma at all. DID requires a traumatic early childhood event that may or may not be abuse, but all adults in their life would have had to fail at helping the child process what they experienced, which in a way is a sort of abuse. It would be very unusual to have DID without being diagnosed with PTSD at some point in your life, and diagnosing PTSD includes taking into account the severity of traumatic events.

    A good resource for more information about dissociation is Coping with Trauma-Related Dissociation: Skills Training for Patients and Therapists. I haven't checked the price recently, but it has been priced pretty reasonably in digital format in the past year or so.
     
  8. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    mickey2942,
    You could be right about BPD, but Multiple Personalities seem to me to be a real aspect of the world:

    Sybil and this movie play out this theme but seem to be sensasionalist?
    Voices Within: The Lives of Truddi Chase, a Movie
    A popular theme in movies and books.

    Here is a very good book that recounts many instances of what appears as multiple personalities flourishing inside one person:
    The Voices Within by Charles Fernyhough
    The Voices Within by Charles Fernyhough

    The Voices Within Blog Page
    Charles Fernyhough's homepage

    Some quotes from Fernyhough's book:
    The voices in my head
    Turns out its all related to sexual abuse in childhood, memories of which she has supressed.

    The voices in my head | Eleanor Longden - YouTube



    If you are of the feminist persuasion, here is one for the memory book:
    My two cents is: we all have a minimum of two personalities, one for the left brain and one for the right, with the left brain usually being dominant, giving rise to the illusion of one personality being the norm. Split brain experiments have validated this.

    Unresolved childhood trauma can result in multiple personalities appearing in adulthood all attempting to express or communicate emotion supressed, pain withheld or trauma undergone?

    So a PDI based on Patsy being in the thrall of multiple personalities seems credible, but where is the evidence?

    .
     
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  9. MaryNo

    MaryNo Active Member

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    I have a couple of questions on your overall post, so didn't snip it apart. Sybil, being a self-admitted hoax, and Trudi Chase (true/fiction?) dramatizations are going to be sensationalized, because they're not based on reality, true?
    PDI based on Patsy being in the thrall of MPD "seems credible, but where is the evidence?" Do you believe that it's possible for many multiples to live out their lives without being diagnosed, or being exposed by those who live with them? I have two people in mind, in my own life, that have always puzzled me. I have never really known how to "be" around them. I'm not saying they're multiples, and doubt they are. I'm just wondering if true multiples can carry out their lives without anyone noticing the switches between personalities.
     
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  10. Dragognosis

    Dragognosis Active Member

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    I think if it was ever stated by the BPD that Patsy did it alone and deliberately stories about her would flood out.
     
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  11. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    MaryNo,
    Yes, true. I just quoted them as a contrast to real life stories.

    Yes because in a mild form multiples are ordinary just an expression of the many in a singular form, some artists, authors, comedians, singers, etc reflect this in their art.

    Sure they can, other people can put switches down to mood swings, etc. Most people don't go looking for multiples they assume everyone has one and only one personality. Its a bit like All Swans Are White until you travel to New Zealand?

    Psychiatrists diagnosed people with MPD as schitzophrenic. overlooking MPD precisley because they had tunnel vision.

    So Patsy could have exhibited MPD with nobody noticing anything out of the ordinary, unless it impacted on them directly.

    As a child I knew an adult who believed in faries, goblins, etc and would talk to me about such things, as I grew older I began to doubt this persons sanity, but in a childish way, since an aspect of their personality was both hidden and on view sporadically.

    .
     
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  12. MaryNo

    MaryNo Active Member

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    Thank you! People have theorized that something about JonBenet's bedwetting set her off - she was tired, etc. Because I believe this was premeditated, and, to me, spoke of rage/hatred, and that something prior to the purchase of rope/tape, etc. was the real catalyst behind the murder, in your opinion, could an immature alter have "had enough", and taken over during the time period of the crime? Thanks :)
     
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  13. mickey2942

    mickey2942 Well-Known Member

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    People can be bad parents without any associative disorders, Personality disorders, or MPD.

    If we go with PDI, I saw her as being narcissistic type A perfectionist. And dealing with a child that isn't fitting into the "perfection" slot can be frustrating. Perfectionist types are the most miserable at holidays, because they want everything and everyone to match the "Hallmark Christmas" in their head.

    A cranky, bedwetting child doesn't "fit" the picture. Their patience is brittle, to nonexistent. And I wonder if Patsy was taking any diet meds? Add that to the mix...Jon Benet, bedwetting, AGAIN, crying, wanting to eat something, add being a bit tired, and the "I am gonna give you something to cry about"...blunt force trauma a bit too much. And it can't be taken back.

    The bizarre staging makes about as much sense as Jeffrey McDonald killing his youngest daughter to fit his "crazed hippie" narrative. Remember, we may be dealing with a manic person, on speed. Who knows?!
     
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  14. David Rogers

    David Rogers Active Member

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    I wonder what would happen if a person with this who was abused by their father then found on their daughter was abused by the same person.
     
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  15. MaryNo

    MaryNo Active Member

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    This is similar/same as my theory. In my opinion, this tragic ending was in the works before the party at the White's house.
     
  16. lsv7

    lsv7 Active Member

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    I know several women that weren't diagnosed with DID until they were in middle age. All of them had been hospitalized in the past and been diagnosed with other mental health issues. Both mental health professionals and the people in their lives could tell that there was something happening. As far as friends and family go, I think a lot of it is that they might think that DID means that there are really dramatic differences between personalities, like different genders or something big like that. Instead, it could be something like the same person but at different ages.
     
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  17. MaryNo

    MaryNo Active Member

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    This is very helpful! I guess I need to do some serious digging on this illness. Thank you for your insight on this :)
     
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  18. Dragognosis

    Dragognosis Active Member

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    Sometimes BPD is refered to as a "condition". The degree to which social interaction is inhibited turns the condition into a disorder.

    Kernberg's book is "Borderline Conditions and Pathological Narcissism".

    I think the same thing holds true for DID and psychosis.

    Iow, "conditions" may make a person "difficult" without triggering an alert response in people around them. Then they progress, really digress, to the point of interfering in normal social discourse, they seem to "snap" when there were developing stages all along.
     
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  19. MaryNo

    MaryNo Active Member

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    I should have used the term, "condition". Thank you!
    Throughout the years, here, people have theorized that possibly Patsy was possibly suffering a psychotic episode. It didn't seem to fit. To me, Patsy was recreating her own life through JonBenet. I would love to know more about her life when she was JonBenet's age.
     
  20. lsv7

    lsv7 Active Member

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    Kernberg's book was written in 1975. He uses the term "condition," because he is not speaking of Borderline Personality Disorder in the same way that we do today. Psychoanalysts used the term differently. It is not generally linguistically necessary or appropriate to call BPD a condition in this decade or any of the ones after the 1980s.
     
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