"personal hygeine" of JB

[coloradokares]

could be,good thoughts,I just want to say that if that was the case,it was b/c of Patsy herself,I've never heard of anyone from the south using douching to clean a child for soiling issues.

Corporal cleaning was the term coined by Thomas to describe the over the top bathroom screaming sessions, I dont see how anyone not there can swear it was douching or was not for that matter. Although that was widely suggested or speculated. Consistent with the evidence as well, at any rate what was going on behind the bathroom doors was not normal loving parenting. It was punitve in nature if we are to believe the investigators and investigative reporters who worked there rears off on this case to try to seek justice and expose what was going on up in Boulder. They did not call in the sexual abuse officers on a whim. What we do not know is if Jon Benet was molested in any other way. I do not see or even see it suggested that adult male penetration occured, perhaps digital. That could have been from a few potential situations or sources, as repugnant or repulsive and vile as that seems. Hymenal erosion does not just happen.

 

[phenolred]

Was it cervical cancer that Patsy had? I found this. If it was maybe she had been douched as a child and continued all through her adulthood and got cancer and she just thought it was noraml to douche Jonbenet as a way of cleaning her.

VAGINAL DOUCHING/CERVICAL CANCER
Douching may increase the risk of cervical cancer by changing the normal vaginal chemical environment. Women who douche more than once a week are at increased risk of developing cervical cancer. (American Journal of Epidemiology 133(4)368-375, 1991)

 

[BOESP]

JMO8778,

Yes, unless new evidence appears, it looks like someone was molesting JonBenet , then whacked her over the head, strangled her, cleaned her up and staged a crime-scene?

Without knowing some of the evidence that Steve Thomas had access to, its difficult to expand any particular theory.

.

I doubt Thomas would have written a book and used his theory of what he thinks happened unless there was a good body of evidence supporting it. A lot of people seem to want to diss Thomas yet they will believe anything DOI has to say.

I'm still not convinced about the molestation for sexual gratification part. I don't think the autopsy supports that although acute and chronic abuse of some sort was indicated. If Thomas thought it was sexual in nature, I believe he would have stated that rather than use the term "corporal cleansing." Wish he'd been more clear about what that means.

 

[UKGuy]

But I don't think any of the staging was done because of previous events. I think all the staging was directed at the fact JonBenet was dead.

Let's say JonBenet was previously sexually abused. Let's say douches were used on her. Let's say inappropriate things were done to her because she was wetting and soiling her underwear. None of that matters. JonBenet is dead. That matters.

The staging was to create an intruder. Physical evidence of an intruder couldn't be created. Physical acts of an intruder could be created. That is what the staging did.

Albert18,

The staging was to create an intruder. Physical evidence of an intruder couldn't be created. Physical acts of an intruder could be created. That is what the staging did.

Not quite, since as I have pointed on many an occasion, there is no forensic evidence linking to an intruder.

The purpose of the staging was to hide a crime, to mask what had really occurred, intruder or resident, no fabricated acts were required, JonBenet had been sexually assaulted, strangled and asphyxiated, these were not fake!

.

 

[UKGuy]

I doubt Thomas would have written a book and used his theory of what he thinks happened unless there was a good body of evidence supporting it. A lot of people seem to want to diss Thomas yet they will believe anything DOI has to say.

I'm still not convinced about the molestation for sexual gratification part. I don't think the autopsy supports that although acute and chronic abuse of some sort was indicated. If Thomas thought it was sexual in nature, I believe he would have stated that rather than use the term "corporal cleansing." Wish he'd been more clear about what that means.

BOESP,

Steve Thomas does not analyse all the forensic evidence he only offers tangential support for the theories he wishes to promote, he even tells you his theory is not supported by all the evidence and is not conclusive.

Whatever he means by "corporal cleansing." it certainly has nothing to do with JonBenet's death, again as I stated above Steve Thomas concedes his case is circumstantial and not conclusive, imo he was simply padding his book out with an old lea theory that had already been dismissed internally, there is no way, with a case unsolved, that you will get their no 1. theory along with all the evidence.


.

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,

Steve Thomas does not analyse all the forensic evidence he only offers tangential support for the theories he wishes to promote, he even tells you his theory is not supported by all the evidence and is not conclusive.

Whatever he means by "corporal cleansing." it certainly has nothing to do with JonBenet's death, again as I stated above Steve Thomas concedes his case is circumstantial and not conclusive, imo he was simply padding his book out with an old lea theory that had already been dismissed internally, there is no way, with a case unsolved, that you will get their no 1. theory along with all the evidence.


.

Yes, I understood that Thomas did not analyze all the evidence, but he must have had enough evidence to form a theory. That's my point. Of course, his theory is not conclusive but it was a theory and it was made by someone with first-hand knowledge. I do agree that a "no 1" theory as you called it was probably not presented in Thomas's book, just as it's not likely the best evidence has ever been made public either.

 

[phenolred]

I'm anxious to hear what you guys think about the douching injury info on the child post I put up...I have a feeling this could be it

 

[Solace]

Was it cervical cancer that Patsy had? I found this. If it was maybe she had been douched as a child and continued all through her adulthood and got cancer and she just thought it was noraml to douche Jonbenet as a way of cleaning her.

VAGINAL DOUCHING/CERVICAL CANCER
Douching may increase the risk of cervical cancer by changing the normal vaginal chemical environment. Women who douche more than once a week are at increased risk of developing cervical cancer. (American Journal of Epidemiology 133(4)368-375, 1991)

I think Patsy had STAGEIV Ovarian Cancer.

 

[coloradokares]

BOESP,

Steve Thomas does not analyse all the forensic evidence he only offers tangential support for the theories he wishes to promote, he even tells you his theory is not supported by all the evidence and is not conclusive.

Whatever he means by "corporal cleansing." it certainly has nothing to do with JonBenet's death, again as I stated above Steve Thomas concedes his case is circumstantial and not conclusive, imo he was simply padding his book out with an old lea theory that had already been dismissed internally, there is no way, with a case unsolved, that you will get their no 1. theory along with all the evidence.


.

Corporal cleaning whatever that is did play into all this; its a far stretch to think the Lead Investigator put all that out there on no basis in fact. If it had played no part in Jon Benets death Thomas would not have put it out there a such. Things were NOT normal up in Boulder and things culminated in the death of that little girl whose body showed that there had been violation prior to her death. I think Thomas took Jon Benets death far to seriously to as you say pad a book.

 

[UKGuy]

Corporal cleaning whatever that is did play into all this; its a far stretch to think the Lead Investigator put all that out there on no basis in fact. If it had played no part in Jon Benets death Thomas would not have put it out there a such. Things were NOT normal up in Boulder and things culminated in the death of that little girl whose body showed that there had been violation prior to her death. I think Thomas took Jon Benets death far to seriously to as you say pad a book.

coloradokares,

Corporal cleaning whatever that is did play into all this

Please put your evidence on the table, Steve Thomas tells you in his book that its an inconclusive theory, its patently there to pad out his book. You seriously believe he is going to alert the main suspect to what the police thought, or even that he had the legal permission to publish official information?


Douching, bedwetting, corporal cleaning, have nothing to do with the death of JonBenet, I even doubt they ever occurred on the night of her death, they are not credible as explanations for her death or for the forensic evidence.

 

[UKGuy]

I'm anxious to hear what you guys think about the douching injury info on the child post I put up...I have a feeling this could be it

phenolred,

If Patsy thought it was normal, why have we not heard about it yet?

Even if she was douched, and wet the bed, and was corporally cleaned on the night she died, this does not explain all the forensic evidence.

Douching if it ever occurred is incidental to her death, it did not cause it.


.

 

[phenolred]

Well i think douching did have something to do with the chronic vaginal problems she had and the hymen errosion. I have found alot of info on douching and even medical journal articles and studies that have found how prevelent it is as being something that is passed down from mother to daughter.


I found this

Why do women douche?
Douching is a practice that is thought to have been around since ancient times.
It is common for Women who douche say they "feel clean when they douche and dirty if they don't". A Pittsburgh study found that the habit of douching is typically passed down from mother to daughter or from another family relative.


I feel Patsy thought she was CLEANING her making her clean esp with all the soiling. and fecal matter that gets near/in the vagina can cause infections that is why girls are taught to wipe from front to back. and if she were deficating in her panties then it is possible Patsy wanted to make sure she cleansed that away and probably thought nothing of it. Maybe she would just normaly barely inserted it but if Jon Benet were thrashing around while she was doing it she could have slipped and made it go in farther causing bleeding etc. Maybe this was also a part of the ole pageant scrub. Nedra seems a little strange she probably got it from her.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, I understood that Thomas did not analyze all the evidence, but he must have had enough evidence to form a theory. That's my point. Of course, his theory is not conclusive but it was a theory and it was made by someone with first-hand knowledge. I do agree that a "no 1" theory as you called it was probably not presented in Thomas's book, just as it's not likely the best evidence has ever been made public either.

BOESP,

The most likely theory is the one that never made it to the book, all those turned over in the book were already in the public domain or considered as invalid by the BPD.

I reckon Steve Thomas has a pretty good idea who killed JonBenet, particularly since he can know for certain whether the missing piece of the paintbrush was left inside JonBenet, whether the blankets were also urine-soaked, whether the size-12's were worn to the White's party, whether JonBenet's vagina contained traces of any douching chemical?

He will know these things and be able to generate a theory more consistent than any of ours.


.

 

[UKGuy]

Well i think douching did have something to do with the chronic vaginal problems she had and the hymen errosion. I have found alot of info on douching and even medical journal articles and studies that have found how prevelent it is as being something that is passed down from mother to daughter.


I found this

Why do women douche?
Douching is a practice that is thought to have been around since ancient times.
It is common for Women who douche say they "feel clean when they douche and dirty if they don't". A Pittsburgh study found that the habit of douching is typically passed down from mother to daughter or from another family relative.


I feel Patsy thought she was CLEANING her making her clean esp with all the soiling. and fecal matter that gets near/in the vagina can cause infections that is why girls are taught to wipe from front to back. and if she were deficating in her panties then it is possible Patsy wanted to make sure she cleansed that away and probably thought nothing of it. Maybe she would just normaly barely inserted it but if Jon Benet were thrashing around while she was doing it she could have slipped and made it go in farther causing bleeding etc. Maybe this was also a part of the ole pageant scrub. Nedra seems a little strange she probably got it from her.

phenolred,

Maybe where is all the evidence, its just speculation otherwise?

.

 

[phenolred]

phenolred,

If Patsy thought it was normal, why have we not heard about it yet?

Even if she was douched, and wet the bed, and was corporally cleaned on the night she died, this does not explain all the forensic evidence.

Douching if it ever occurred is incidental to her death, it did not cause it.


.

Right I never meant that Douching caused her death ( death by douching LOL) What my point is I guess is that I believe that the douching is what all the previous trauama to her vagina was from, it was from repeated douchings NOT from sexual abuse, I'm thinking that all the prior douching made it appear ( at autopsy) that maybe she had been molested because of the hymen being damaged erroded and her having chronic trauma, therefore, it may have caused the investigation to take a sexual abuse tone when it may have not been sexual at all

 

[phenolred]

well im sure the LE have not released ALL of their evidence to the public. Maybe they do have evidence supporting the douching but have not made that public. ALso, IF she were douched with plain water which is a possiblity that wouldnt show up in a test of her vagina because water could be in there from just taking a bath. In addition, if they saw douching materials at the ramseys house in the trash or cabinets then they would have AT THAT TIME thought it belonged to PASTY who would ever think it would be used on a child???? But now I think otherwise? In any of the interviwes with Pasty or John did they ever ask them about douches??? This I do not Know. has anybody ever asked Nedra or Pam ?

 

[UKGuy]

well im sure the LE have not released ALL of their evidence to the public. Maybe they do have evidence supporting the douching but have not made that public. ALso, IF she were douched with plain water which is a possiblity that wouldnt show up in a test of her vagina because water could be in there from just taking a bath. In addition, if they saw douching materials at the ramseys house in the trash or cabinets then they would have AT THAT TIME thought it belonged to PASTY who would ever think it would be used on a child???? But now I think otherwise? In any of the interviwes with Pasty or John did they ever ask them about douches??? This I do not Know. has anybody ever asked Nedra or Pam ?

phenolred,

Yes they were questioned, and did they discover any douching materials belonging to Patsy?

Here is what the pathologist said who conducted JonBenet's autopsy.
Ramsey warrant dated January 30, 1997

Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 26, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that is was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.

...

Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that he observed red stains in the crotch area of the panties that the child was wearing at the time that the child's body was subjected to the external visual examination. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that the red stain appeared to be consistent with blood. Det. Arndt further informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that after examining the panties (as described above), he observed the exterior pubic area of the child's body located next to the areas of the panties containing the red stains and found no visible reddish stains in the area. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that his opinion is that the evidence observed is consistent with the child's pubic area having been wiped by a cloth.

That is the pathologist conducting the autopsy, he was there, he held the view that moments prior to her death JonBenet had been subjected to sexual contact, digital penetration of her vagina., and that the pubic area having been wiped by a cloth removed the evidence. e.g. blood stains.


Douching does not explain a sexual assault, an asphyxiation and blunt trauma to her skull, its too simplistic.


.

 

[coloradokares]

coloradokares,

Please put your evidence on the table, Steve Thomas tells you in his book that its an inconclusive theory, its patently there to pad out his book. You seriously believe he is going to alert the main suspect to what the police thought, or even that he had the legal permission to publish official information?


Douching, bedwetting, corporal cleaning, have nothing to do with the death of JonBenet, I even doubt they ever occurred on the night of her death, they are not credible as explanations for her death or for the forensic evidence.

And your evidence that the two were absolutely not related is what? I ask the same that you prove to me the two have no relationship to the the murder other than your personal theory. I personally am acquainted to an investigative reporter , suffice it to say I have more reasons than it must have been a bad burrito I ate that contributes to my suspicions that there were some real issues on the wetting and soiling These are my opinions based an personal conversations held, Now if you have rock solid proof to the contrary I am all ears and would listen for sure cause to me its more important that Jon Benet have justice than to not be willing to hear you out..

 

[Albert18]

Put yourself in the house that night. How would you create an intruder to explain JonBenet's death?

You can't create fingerprints or DNA or equipment and tools that don't belong in the house. All you can do is create actions that can be blamed on an intruder.

Why are young girls like JonBenet killed? They are sexually assaulted and murdered.

What was the staging? A sexual assault and the cord around the neck.

Later a ransom note was added.

They aren't real. That is what staging means.

IDI's buy the staging.

RDI's see the staging for what it really is.

You're not supposed to buy the staging and think everything is real and then blame it on the Ramsey's.

 

[JMO8778]

Put yourself in the house that night. How would you create an intruder to explain JonBenet's death?

You can't create fingerprints or DNA or equipment and tools that don't belong in the house. All you can do is create actions that can be blamed on an intruder.

Why are young girls like JonBenet killed? They are sexually assaulted and murdered.

What was the staging? A sexual assault and the cord around the neck.

Later a ransom note was added.

They aren't real. That is what staging means.

IDI's buy the staging.

RDI's see the staging for what it really is.

You're not supposed to buy the staging and think everything is real and then blame it on the Ramsey's.

but if she was sexually assaulted by a Ramsey,how would they go about hiding it? writing a fake RN,making the death appear to be so awful a parent could never do it (garroting to hide the real cause of death),cleaning her up and wiping her down(as evidenced,also notice her face was not wiped down...this is not uniform and so was someone wiping off their own dna in an inconspicuous place),changing her underwear to a new pair (no R dna on it) with the previous day on it (so they can say she was abducted that night),denying any contact w. the child...ie-saying she went straight to bed after the party...and didn't wake up.
..which is just what they did.they even denied she had a bath xmas day...so they could account for any of their own dna that might still be on her.even when confronted w the pineapple,they still denied she was up.they distanced themselves from her physically..to a nearly impossible degree.