Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #17

[songline]

:twocents::twocents:Sorry to bring it from another "closed" thread -- but I stand by the Peruvian charges --

1.) It was a rage killing; problably triggered by sexual rejection, her lesbianism, and her period. (He took off her pants and discovered the sanitary napkin.)
2.) The rage was not 100% aimed at Stephany, but a release of boundless suppressed rage, at his situation, life, women in general.
3.) It was a blitz attack - over in minutes - given the differences in size between the killer and the victim.
4.) The killing occurred early in their stay together.He spent time w/the corpse trying to figure out what to do.
5.) The coffee runs were attempts at staging and establishing an alibi.
6.) The robbery was incidental - she didn't have that much money with her - first accounts said 5000 soles - or about $1755. He paid as much to the taxi drivers, even gave them goods in kind. More $$ and he could have chartered a small plane and gone to Aruba. He was IMing money for a plane ticket.
7) Anita is probably key - she hasn't gone there AFAIK - she seems distant and uncaring. JVDS was probably closer to his dad.
8) I agree with Peruvian police - aggravated murder with simple robbery.

<I know all of us - even the poor Flores family (who are now claiming she had $10K) want LWOP - and he could get it in a jury trial - but in a judge panel as exist in most countries - they will go where the evidence takes them without a lot of emotion clouding this issue - at least in theory.>

There are two big mysteries now -- what happened to Natalee - the Stephany case is open and shut; and what was going on in the VDS household.

Although I think JVS had some serious mental problems, I still believe the parents turning a blind eye to the obvious problems belying Joran certainly enabled him. He should have been in counseling---along with the parents in trying to resolve these issues many years ago. Giving a teen a credit line at bars, clubs and casinos was certainly not doing anything constructive in changing his behavior. They were the adults in the situation and they made bad, bad choices. JVS was doing some pretty atrocious stuff when he was young --and would have no choice to go into therapy or off another gambling spree. JMO

Paulus chose to cover up for Joran--he can't blame that on anyone but himself. They were lax in disiplining and giving proper consistant direction to him and now cry foul. It's a pity and shame really.

There is a fine line between enabling and saying that a person is mentally ill. He seems to be mentally deranged.
Some mental pacients are briliant too.
Obviously mentally ill people are not evil but are really really sick.
Obviously while they should be incarcerated to keep the public safe. They should also be medicated. FAMILY WOULD CARE. Strangers would not. But if he needs to be medicated his mom should do whatever she can to get him medicated.

 

[catlover]

Yes... but way prior to that 'certain age' he should have been taught that there are consequence for his actions.

Yes he should have.

 

[Patty G]

I do not blame Joran's mother in anyway, shape or form for what Joran has done. I also can't judge Anita for what she states in the media regarding her feelings about the American media. Heck, we all know first hand, the American media and shows dramatize their stories. Also, we don't even know how the American stories were portrayed in Aruba during the last five years.

What happened to Natalie and Stephany is NOT the fault of Anita. If Anita is in denial, she is not the first mother in the world to feel her child is not capable of killing someone.

Anita didn't meet Natalie in the casino, nor did Anita meet Stephany in the casino. It was Joran.

If we aren't allow to "criticize" Beth, why are we "criticizing" Joran's mother?

 

[songline]

i agree... and if this had all just suddenly happened i could understand the denial - but she has had FIVE YEARS to process what is going on with this... and now here we go again with a new victim. i get the feeling that her refusal to accept that jvds is a murderer has to do with how she views herself than it does with protecting jvds. she hasnt really protected him - she has enabled him and now that he didnt just get better all on his own she is cutting him loose... yeah, pray for him... we see how much praying for him has done. she needed to ACT on his problems not pray about them. but then that would require effort on her part... so she says she has to "save" herself....i think thats what she has been doing all along. moo

She may I said MAY know that he is a sick SOB who needs to be incarcerated, but she may also know that he may need to be medicated too.
I do not know what she may know. I sure think he is only going to stop killing if he is incarcerated. He can not be free to roam around and do more damage.

 

[nervous_nellie]

I do not blame Joran's mother in anyway, shape or form for what Joran has done. I also can't judge Anita for what she states in the media regarding her feelings about the American media. Heck, we all know first hand, the American media and shows dramatize their stories. Also, we don't even know how the American stories were portrayed in Aruba during the last five years.

What happened to Natalie and Stephany is NOT the fault of Anita. If Anita is in denial, she is not the first mother in the world to feel her child is not capable of killing someone.

Anita didn't meet Natalie in the casino, nor did Anita meet Stephany in the casino. It was Joran.

If we aren't allow to "criticize" Beth, why are we "criticizing" Joran's mother?

im not suggesting that it is DIRECTLY her fault... im only stating my opinion in regards to her philosophy of why she thinks all of this isnt really jvds fault... as she stated in her most recent interview... i feel empathy for her - i wouldnt want to trade places with her for sure. but her reasoning seems one sided to me...outa whack for lack of a better term... considering that she has had five years to ponder what she could do to help jvds...

 

[songline]

Yes... but way prior to that 'certain age' he should have been taught that there are consequences for his actions.

Well...Given your theory I can tell you that my daughter was taught about morals and honesty.
I can also tell you she is mentally ill and lies up a storm, and cons her way through everything.
That is the nature of some mentally ill people. I took a course on mental health. go look it up. you are mistaken.in your evaluation. MAYBE He too was taught right from wrong but I doubt that given his Dad and his dads best friend (police chief) have not been straight forward I imagine this guy may not have been taught ethics. BUT on top of that to have a mental illness is no piece of cake.
He should be incarcerated for life to protect the innocent. And to be punished for his doing. BUT he may also need meds.

 

[Patty G]

Yes... but way prior to that 'certain age' he should have been taught that there are consequences for his actions.

Perhaps he was taught that there are consequences for his actions when Joran was a child. Maybe he was punished for talking back, or misbehaving etc., but that doesn't mean once he becomes of age, what he learned as a child was going to follow into his adult life. We hope that our children will take the basics of life taught to them in their youth, but it's clear, that is not always the case.

Many parents have no clue what their children do when they walk out the door and meet their friends, or attend college away from home or go on "Spring" break etc., etc.

 

[Patty G]

im not suggesting that it is DIRECTLY her fault... im only stating my opinion in regards to her philosophy of why she thinks all of this isnt really jvds fault... as she stated in her most recent interview... i feel empathy for her - i wouldnt want to trade places with her for sure. but her reasoning seems one sided to me...outa whack for lack of a better term... considering that she has had five years to ponder what she could do to help jvds...

We have no idea what Anita was trying to do to help Joran over the last five years.

 

[nervous_nellie]

We have no idea what Anita was trying to do to help Joran over the last five years.

my opinion was given in regard to what she herself said in her interview.

 

[texaslb218]

OK. I have developed a split personality. Please send sympathy to me.

When I listen and read the interviews from AVS, I feel very very sorry for what has become of her family and her life. What a depth of sadness and despair she must be feeling.

SWITCH to other side.

When I read the facts and see what tragedies JVS has caused, I am so angry that he and his family did not get him away from society. I feel so so sad for the Holloways and Flores families. Their feelings of sadness and frustration is unimaginable. I actually wish Texas had their hands on him.

So, what to do? I just "thank" posts on both sides. There is NOTHING good to come from this situation except that someone may keep JVS away from society.

Now, I am so so sad and frustrated.

 

[faw720]

I am a degreed professional, I have done drug counseling for 40 years. I am not attacking Anita, I do not know her. I have seen parents deny, deny, deny what their children have done and then become so overwhelmed they suddenly just give up. The saying in AA is: Let go and let God. I believe Anita loves her son and wants to help him but has come to the end of her rope. Perhaps it is time for her to let go, she no longer has a husband and has other children to care for. It is very depressing and innervating to try and cope or live with someone abusing drugs. One never knows if you are talking to the person or the drug. One is not dealing with a rational person and their sickness ends up controlling the whole family. Another AA saying is - Alcoholics don't have relationships they take hostages - it is the same with drug addicts.

It is amazing the number of parents who have no parenting skills whatsoever. From reading her interview, I think, perhaps, Anita falls into this category. Paulus I believe was the enabler & was probably the major reason that Joran didn't receive any psychological help or be held accountable for his actions. I hate that Anita is blaming Natalee for all Joran's problems, but we have to remember that she was in the Netherlands when Natalee disappeared. Anita's information on what happened was not first hand knowledge but was told to her by Paulus & Joran. It was just easier for Anita to go into denial than it was for her to accept that Joran had problems.

 

[songline]

Who is the third person that Joran has murdered? Was the mother saying "Perhaps it was time to let Joran go" in something in the news? She was actually right though. I think daddy pampered Joran...covered for him and heaven knows what else. Joran was of age and he was old enough to be on his own. The kid has actually been on his own since he was in his early teens. It sounds like he came and went as he pleased...got to gamble and drink while underage, etc. His mother was no longer responsible for him and he should have been on his own...holding down a job...and growing into a man. I would imagine that Joran did exactly what he wanted to whether mom liked it or not when he was living in the home. She probably was relieved when he went off on his own.

Even though she may have been glad that he moved on she is still holding up for him...making excuses for him...and denying a murder when her son has admitted he did it. If she is smart she will stay in Aruba and take care of her youngest son. Joran will be just fine on his own.

I know that I may no longer see clearly because I have a bipolar/personality disorder kid myself.
But Joran seems to exhibit mental illness to me: blaming others, not taking any responsibility, lies, con jobs, his sexual behaviour, (there seem to be stories that he got away with raping girls from a young age) I am not a doctor, or his mother, but I see that this guy is way off and IMHO may actually be mentally deranged.
It is a situation when often times the parents can not control any of it. His father was in a position to not have permitted him into casinos, and yes they do need boundaries, and structure. His father did not help in that at all.

 

[songline]

I couldn't agree more! The fact is we'll never know for certain why Joran did what he did and all this speculation does is fuel the already wild rumor mill. All the supposition about things like whether or not Stephany was gay or on her period and whether Joran suffered food allergies and the like being the reasoning for him commiting this crime just muddies the water, IMO.

As for Anita... while I have a certain amount of empathy and compassion for her and her situation, I have a problem with her making excuses and placing the blame on others for Joran's actions, including the American news media and most specifically Natalee and her family. While it may be true that Paulus was the primary enabler, she appears to have stood passively by while allowing it to continue. She seems rather weak willed and dominated by the 'men' of the family, IMO. She's a teacher and should have recognized the warning signs and insisted that he not be enabled and be held accountable for his actions. Failing that, she should have sought out and demanded professional care. We only have her word that he was on the brink of being sent for therapy at this point, which seems rather convenient timing, IMO.

That said, it's easy to play the woulda, shoulda, coulda game after the fact and who really knows how they might react if the the same position.

Teachers are not doctors, and some ailments do not get diagnosed till late. Just the way it is with Bipolar and other such ailments.

 

[Patty G]

my opinion was given in regard to what she herself said in her interview.

Did the interview state that she "pondered over the last 5 years to help Joran" or was it recent that she was trying to get Joran to go for help? I was only responding to the "last 5 years of pondering."

 

[angela]

I do not blame Joran's mother in anyway, shape or form for what Joran has done. I also can't judge Anita for what she states in the media regarding her feelings about the American media. Heck, we all know first hand, the American media and shows dramatize their stories. Also, we don't even know how the American stories were portrayed in Aruba during the last five years.

What happened to Natalie and Stephany is NOT the fault of Anita. If Anita is in denial, she is not the first mother in the world to feel her child is not capable of killing someone.

Anita didn't meet Natalie in the casino, nor did Anita meet Stephany in the casino. It was Joran.

If we aren't allow to "criticize" Beth, why are we "criticizing" Joran's mother?

Thanks Patty! I totally agree that the blame needs to be squarely on Joran and no one else. The vilification of Anita is so unfair. None of us lived in the VDS home so none of us know how Joran was raised. I do everything I can to teach my daughter right from wrong but I know there is no guarantee she will take what she has learned with her when she is on her own. You can not force an adult child to get help even if you know they need it. Give Anita a break.

 

[lorann]

Although I have posted very little on this, I have tried to read and watch every show, clicked on most links etc. I was put off on posting any opinions because I have been a little upset at some of the atmosphere of people seeming to relish the thought of JVS being tortured now that he is in prison. That's just me. I think he was guilty five years ago and was aided by his father, massive cover up, just like most everyone here. He has been getting progressively worse, evidently medical help was trying to be put in place. He didn't want help. In my opinion, he will be found guilty of any charges that Peru seeks to persue, he will not be medically treated for any mental conditions - he will try to adapt to the prison life there but will not live long. His mother (wisely I might add) is ready to let go of any help she can get for him, she really has no choice. I think that's what she means not that she is ready to give up any love she has as a mother. I will not grieve for him as my sympathy for the family and friends of the victims is much stronger - but I do not relish in what is in store for him, now or as he meets his Maker.

 

[dolly1]

BBM

Do you have a link to the 3rd person that Joran "allegedly" murdered?

I don't have the number of the post in front of me. I read it on a previous thread. It was when posters were talking about Jorans' violence as a child: killing his dog and throwing a homeless man off a bridge. I'll try to find it for you if someone else doesn't come up with it.

I said Joran should feel he helped kill his father because Anita said he went down hill after his father died because he felt he had caused it. This was from her first interview with the Dutch paper. Here is the link to the English version of the Dutch paper. www.dutchnews.nl

Right now I have to take my dear one out to breakfast. He has no human children but he couldn't be a better dad to our 2 Standard Poodles. After working all day, on his feet, he walks them 2 miles, then add the vet bills. So, he get cards and a Doggie-Dad Day. Those who aren't dog people can say ewww and all the dog people can say awww what a good guy.

 

[suzihawk]

I know that I may no longer see clearly because I have a bipolar/personality disorder kid myself.
But Joran seems to exhibit mental illness to me: blaming others, not taking any responsibility, lies, con jobs, his sexual behaviour, (there seem to be stories that he got away with raping girls from a young age) I am not a doctor, or his mother, but I see that this guy is way off and IMHO may actually be mentally deranged.
It is a situation when often times the parents can not control any of it. His father was in a position to not have permitted him into casinos, and yes they do need boundaries, and structure. His father did not help in that at all.

songline... I have tremendous empathy for what you must have to deal with regarding your daughter. I'm assuming she's been formally diagnosed and, accordingly prescribed medications that help, if even in some small measure. It's clear that you have your child's best interest at heart. I'm sure (I hope!) that people understand that you're not at fault for her condition and that you're doing all you can possibly do to help her by seeking professional help and therapy plus medication. {hugs}

So far, I haven't seen the same with JVS. He has not been formally diagnosed or received treatment for any type of mental disorder, as far as I know. So, at this point, I can't use the MAYBE he has a mental disability excuse. If and when that occurs, I may change my current opinion.

:blowkiss:

 

[TwiceIrish]

Joran Van der Sloot to Open in Jail:

Some information in the following link about what may happen on Monday:

http://www.rnw.nl/international-justice/article/joran-van-der-sloot-open-jail

Some excerpts from this article:

The charges will be read out against the Dutchman by Judge Carlos Morales.

The arraignment will take place behind closed doors. In legal terms, what follows is the pre-trial investigation. Van der Sloot's detention can be extended up to twelve months.

During the investigation, the authorities will try to clarify the facts and determine any guilt.

and;

In an exclusive interview with Radio Netherlands Worldwide, Edward Álvarez, lawyer of the Flores family, insists that despite concerns that Joran van der Sloot will get a fair trial in Peru:

and;

Evidence
Judge Morales Córdova will have at his disposal the results of psychological and psychiatric tests of Joran van der Sloot, as well as the autopsy report and expert reports in the preliminary investigation.

But Álvarez says there are still gaps:

"There are still many things to finish in the pre-trial investigation. One of the primary things is the reading of the contents of Joran van der Sloot's laptop. We do not know yet what information it contains. We also need to investigate the record of telephone calls that Stephany Flores received. We know that she received calls from Joran during the days before her death. There are people at the casino that were aware of Joran van der Sloot's presence: whether he won money and whether it is true if he entered the place with so much money."

The hard disc of Van der Sloot's computer could also contain information about the murder of US citizen Nathalee Holloway in Aruba in 2005. Van der Sloot remains a suspect in that unresolved case.

More at the link...

 

[nervous_nellie]

Did the interview state that she "pondered over the last 5 years to help Joran" or was it recent that she was trying to get Joran to go for help? I was only responding to the "last 5 years of pondering."

like i said - that is just my opinion. i dont see how she couldnt have thought/considered/pondered what she should/could do for him over the past five years because she speaks of her opinion of his mental abilities deteriorating since the nh case or because of the fall out from the nh case... i dont think this is her fault, and i do have sympathy for her and for parents of children that have mental illnesses... really, i do. this is the fault of jvds fair and square. and technically jvds is an adult and she cant force him to do anything - probably couldnt have forced him to do anything when he was a teen following the nh case, especially because the income that the media provided him he was able to do whatever he wanted to do - he didnt need or rely upon his family like he did prior to the nh case, so maybe thats what she is implying??? i dont know. its just my opinion that her interview sounded "OFF" to me. sorry if i offended anyone as that was/is not my intent