Theres an UID Asian woman that was found dead on the North Shore. Who is she?
POI: Michael Pak
- Thread starter WINDSOR
- Start date
- Status
LR1, I do not think anybody on this forum is giving Diaz a Good Conduct Medal. Basically everything you say about him is true. Unfortunately, he cannot be held criminally responsible for Shannan's death. Morally and ethically Diaz's responsibility is another consideration. I think though most people would agree a guy who arranges for the sale of sexual services is a pimp, and that is what Pak did for Brewer. Pak sold Shannan to Brewer. Yes Diaz knew this was happening as well.
I think it is important to understand the men that work in the sex trade, be they pimps, boyfriends, drivers, or any other related workers, live off the women. They are not good people in the sense of character and values. These men justify their behavior with explanations such as 'free enterprise', 'consenting adults', it is a woman's choice', it is the 'oldest profession', 'you cannot change what men will pay for'.
The facts point that a vast majority of female sex workers were molested and abused as children.
A great number were lured or enticed into the profession by men while they were still adolescents.
Most of the pimps, tell each girl/women they love them and will protect them, while in reality the whole purpose is exploitation for money.
The sleuthers on this site are focused on finding information that either exonerates Michael Pak from any criminal involvement in Shannan's death, or discovering evidence that Pak and/or other individuals are responsible for her death.
We know Pak arranged with Brewer for Shannan and brought Shannan to Brewer's house.
We know Pak was chasing Shannan and she was running away from him.
We know that Pak was the last person verified to see Shannan alive.
We know that Pak was aware the Police were coming to Oak Beach, and he left before they arrived.
This circumstantial evidence alone makes Pak a serious POI.
When you add the fact of Hackett's involvement to the fact that Pak and Hackett were acquainted after Shannan's disappearance. It becomes quite realistic to believe that Pak knows a lot more than he has disclosed and is very likely criminally involved.
For those who feel Pak was a driver and security for Shannan and would not want harm to come to her, have only to be aware of how women are treated by men in the trade. Shannan's 'boyfriend' Alex broke her jaw. Most pimps beat their girls regularly to keep them in line, and as a motivation technique.
I am personally amazed that this case has not been solved yet. Maybe all the corruption in law enforcement on Long Island that has been has mentioned has precluded charges being laid. I do not know.
What has to happen to solve this case? I think some combination of the following would be helpful
a) A confession, probably as a result of a plea bargain.
b) Evidence that Pak caught up with Shannan that night, after they left Gus' home.
c) Evidence that Shannan was in Hackett's house that night.
d) Information on what it was that scared Shannan when she was in Brewer's house.
e) Information about the possibility other men in Brewer's house that night, some who might be involved in law enforcement.
f) Information about the contents of the 'erased' tape from the gatehouse camera that evening.
g) Full and honest disclosure by all parties about their relationships and their knowledge.
"If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it just might be a duck" ..........................you decide.
I think it is important to understand the men that work in the sex trade, be they pimps, boyfriends, drivers, or any other related workers, live off the women. They are not good people in the sense of character and values. These men justify their behavior with explanations such as 'free enterprise', 'consenting adults', it is a woman's choice', it is the 'oldest profession', 'you cannot change what men will pay for'.
The facts point that a vast majority of female sex workers were molested and abused as children.
A great number were lured or enticed into the profession by men while they were still adolescents.
Most of the pimps, tell each girl/women they love them and will protect them, while in reality the whole purpose is exploitation for money.
The sleuthers on this site are focused on finding information that either exonerates Michael Pak from any criminal involvement in Shannan's death, or discovering evidence that Pak and/or other individuals are responsible for her death.
We know Pak arranged with Brewer for Shannan and brought Shannan to Brewer's house.
We know Pak was chasing Shannan and she was running away from him.
We know that Pak was the last person verified to see Shannan alive.
We know that Pak was aware the Police were coming to Oak Beach, and he left before they arrived.
This circumstantial evidence alone makes Pak a serious POI.
When you add the fact of Hackett's involvement to the fact that Pak and Hackett were acquainted after Shannan's disappearance. It becomes quite realistic to believe that Pak knows a lot more than he has disclosed and is very likely criminally involved.
For those who feel Pak was a driver and security for Shannan and would not want harm to come to her, have only to be aware of how women are treated by men in the trade. Shannan's 'boyfriend' Alex broke her jaw. Most pimps beat their girls regularly to keep them in line, and as a motivation technique.
I am personally amazed that this case has not been solved yet. Maybe all the corruption in law enforcement on Long Island that has been has mentioned has precluded charges being laid. I do not know.
What has to happen to solve this case? I think some combination of the following would be helpful
a) A confession, probably as a result of a plea bargain.
b) Evidence that Pak caught up with Shannan that night, after they left Gus' home.
c) Evidence that Shannan was in Hackett's house that night.
d) Information on what it was that scared Shannan when she was in Brewer's house.
e) Information about the possibility other men in Brewer's house that night, some who might be involved in law enforcement.
f) Information about the contents of the 'erased' tape from the gatehouse camera that evening.
g) Full and honest disclosure by all parties about their relationships and their knowledge.
"If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it just might be a duck" ..........................you decide.
It's a very disturbing picture you paint of her life and I'm not doubting she had a rough life but the issue at hand is the series of murders in which she led authorities to, of which there is no doubt about the horrific nature in which there lives were ended. If he is ever caught she gets credit for exposing it all.
Articles are posted of pimps physically abusing their girls and talk of pak as if he was no different. I've seen no proof he's ever physically abused anyone. I see him as a facilitator agreed upon by Shannan and he would have received a cut with Shannan getting the bulk. That's the opposite of a traditional pimp/girl relationship. So there's a false equivalence there.
Technically he could have been charged with promoting prostitution but at this point that's never going to happen. Charging him for negligent homicide or something similar would be a very hard case to make also given her actions that were witnessed by multiple people with no proven collusion of these witnesses in perpetrating or covering up a crime.
If charging him with the murder of Mrs. Gilbert wouldn't one need to determine a murder occurred in the first place? Nothing is going to change on that front either but that's OK though because it does not appear any crime other than prostitution occurred that night. That is the sad reality of it all.
Articles are posted of pimps physically abusing their girls and talk of pak as if he was no different. I've seen no proof he's ever physically abused anyone. I see him as a facilitator agreed upon by Shannan and he would have received a cut with Shannan getting the bulk. That's the opposite of a traditional pimp/girl relationship. So there's a false equivalence there.
Technically he could have been charged with promoting prostitution but at this point that's never going to happen. Charging him for negligent homicide or something similar would be a very hard case to make also given her actions that were witnessed by multiple people with no proven collusion of these witnesses in perpetrating or covering up a crime.
If charging him with the murder of Mrs. Gilbert wouldn't one need to determine a murder occurred in the first place? Nothing is going to change on that front either but that's OK though because it does not appear any crime other than prostitution occurred that night. That is the sad reality of it all.
DaisyChains
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2017
- Messages
- 765
- Reaction score
- 702
Pak said he stuck around the parkway looking for her until near 6 am. He may have left Oak Beach neighborhood, but he said in one interview that he stayed to look along that parkway for her. I've often wondered if he intercepted her on that parkway and in a rage strangled her and left her out in the bramble. Which is what I am sure other people are wondering.
Most people trafficked into the US are NOT victims. They are party to what is happening and want to come, all the trafficker does is help them do it. For a fee of course.
If the "victim" is hiring the trafficker themselves, they can hardly be called victims.
Anonymous19
Member
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2017
- Messages
- 224
- Reaction score
- 29
Dont bother educating her Tugela I have already tried, its a waste of time.
I am making conclusions based on what we know about the case. There is no "blaming" going on, it is just the simplest explanation of what happened based on the evidence. As far as Pak and Brewer (or people like them) is concerned, the starting point should always be a presumption of innocence until such time as evidence points to a contrary conclusion. Just an observation, but it is far too common in discussions like these for people to start from the presumption of guilt and not move any further from that, but that is not what I do.
I have a lot of sympathy for SG, she clearly has had a horrible life, but that in itself does not mean that the decisions and actions she made that day did not have a direct consequence in the form of her fate. This is not blaming or judging or moralizing, it is simply a statement of fact. If you are looking at a case objectively to discover the truth, you need to remove that emotional aspect from your assessment, because if you don't it will very easily lead you in the wrong direction.
Tugela,
I do understand the concept of presumption of innocence, however that is a legal concept not an investigative strategy. In investigations one looks for Motive, Means and Opportunity. Innocence or guilt are something for the courts to decide.
If one considers only Motive, Means, and Opportunity, then Michael Pak certainly has to be considered very seriously as a suspect.
Regarding Shannan dying of natural causes as a result of decisions she made that night, that has been thoroughly debated on this site. However when you consider all the people involved and the events; the probabilities of all these things occurring with the result being the accidental death of Shannan is pretty farfetched.
I do accept the fact that possibly no one was criminally involved with Shannan's death. However as long as there is evidence that is not publically available {911 call for example} and the possible mishandling of the investigation by law enforcement I will focus on those who had the Motive, Means, and Opportunity.
WINDSOR
I do understand the concept of presumption of innocence, however that is a legal concept not an investigative strategy. In investigations one looks for Motive, Means and Opportunity. Innocence or guilt are something for the courts to decide.
If one considers only Motive, Means, and Opportunity, then Michael Pak certainly has to be considered very seriously as a suspect.
Regarding Shannan dying of natural causes as a result of decisions she made that night, that has been thoroughly debated on this site. However when you consider all the people involved and the events; the probabilities of all these things occurring with the result being the accidental death of Shannan is pretty farfetched.
I do accept the fact that possibly no one was criminally involved with Shannan's death. However as long as there is evidence that is not publically available {911 call for example} and the possible mishandling of the investigation by law enforcement I will focus on those who had the Motive, Means, and Opportunity.
WINDSOR
WINDSOR,
I'm not convinced Shannan couldn't have kicked his tail if she wanted to. I'm having a hard time with what motive would have been worth possibly spending the rest of your life in jail, or worse. Multiple people knew they were together in oak beach including people not in oak beach so if he wanted her dead she likely wouldn't have been found in oak beach. His opportunity requires him within ten minutes to gather her up kill her place her clothes 100 yards out in the marsh and placing her several hundred yards further in, under daylight conditions with the cops in the neighborhood.
Some will offer the explanation that other people would have been involved not just pak but there was only three involved. SG, MP and JB. The way I see it any other residents that have been implicated at one time or another were brought into the equation strictly as a result of her running around thinking someone was after her. Including the very strange father/son duo who likes to interject. We may differ in our opinions but you've always been respectful in your commentary so I will stand by your right to believe as you see fit.
I'm not convinced Shannan couldn't have kicked his tail if she wanted to. I'm having a hard time with what motive would have been worth possibly spending the rest of your life in jail, or worse. Multiple people knew they were together in oak beach including people not in oak beach so if he wanted her dead she likely wouldn't have been found in oak beach. His opportunity requires him within ten minutes to gather her up kill her place her clothes 100 yards out in the marsh and placing her several hundred yards further in, under daylight conditions with the cops in the neighborhood.
Some will offer the explanation that other people would have been involved not just pak but there was only three involved. SG, MP and JB. The way I see it any other residents that have been implicated at one time or another were brought into the equation strictly as a result of her running around thinking someone was after her. Including the very strange father/son duo who likes to interject. We may differ in our opinions but you've always been respectful in your commentary so I will stand by your right to believe as you see fit.
LR1, I tend to agree with you on the fact it would have extremely difficult for Pak to catch Shannan, kill her and dispose of her body in the marsh and place her clothing about and leave before the police officer arrive.
In fact I do not think that is what happened at all. I really do not know what happened, but here are two possible scenarios.
****** Pak caught up with Shannan, immobilized her and left Oak Beach and dealt with her at another location. He then arranged for her body and clothing to be placed at Oak Beach.
****** Pak caught up with Shannan, and either alone or with assistance took her to somebody's residence (Hackett's?) in Oak Beach and left her there. Pak quickly left Oak Beach and and somebody else took care of Shannan from that point on. This scenario fits in nicely with the statements that Hackett has made regarding treating Shannan.
LR1 what you say about motive and life in prison goes out the window, when passion and emotions such as anger and frustration are involved. There are millions of people in prisons who if they were rational, clear-thinking, clean and sober would have never committed the crimes they were convicted of.
Speaking of drugs, do we know for a fact that Pak was not on any while he was in Oak Beach? It is not unreasonable to believe he may have been using something to relax while he was waiting for Shannan. That might help explain the question he asked Shannan about the movie, which to most people sounds nonsensical.
WINDSOR
Any anger and frustration would have been trumped by self preservation. He don't particularly want to be there when the cops arrive so he's looking to leave to limit the chances he's caught up in promoting prostitution. Not that that would have been the outcome if the cops did talk to him that morning because nobody was going to admit to that. I think knowing the cops were on the way the last thing he's going to do is kill someone.
He asked her what movie they went to see if I remember correctly? Sounds like he's probing her psyche to determine competency. It shows patience if anything. Some would've just drug her out by the hair of the head no questions asked, especially the pimp types. I don't see that as nonsensical at all.
He asked her what movie they went to see if I remember correctly? Sounds like he's probing her psyche to determine competency. It shows patience if anything. Some would've just drug her out by the hair of the head no questions asked, especially the pimp types. I don't see that as nonsensical at all.
I think we can agree to disagree, on the self-preservation trumping anger and frustration. The jails are full of murderers who acted first and then realised the consequences. I think it is within the realm of possibility that after chasing Shannan around Oak Beach he was not completely calm and collected and not making impulsive decisions. No doubt by 5:30am Pak was tired, possibly hungry and maybe had enjoyed a recreational drug while waiting for Shannan and his judgment and ability to think logically and clearly might have been a little impaired.
Remember this is an individual who makes his living in the sex trade, an industry not especially noted for individuals who make good choices. As well Pak told Gus, that calling 911 was a bad idea. Who was it a bad idea for Shannan? NO, she had also called 911. It was a bad idea for Pak based on his clouded reasoning.
{Please remember Alex, broke Shannan's jaw badly, and she was unable to work for a period of time, even though Shannan was Alex's primary means of support, his anger trumped self-preservation.}
twocuriouscats
Searching for Killer Owls
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2011
- Messages
- 886
- Reaction score
- 88
What would Pak's motive be? She was his moneymaker. Why kill her now?
Why do Pimps beat and kill the women that earn for them?
Power
Control
Discipline
As an example to other girls
As an emotional release and thrill
Because they can, and they know in most cases nobody cares.
Because the girl has become too much of a hassle.
Just because
There are scores of new young girls they can lure into the trade
This girl is getting old and not earning like she should
They do not need a reason
BTW I am not saying Pak actually killed anybody, just I think he was 'involved' in Shannan's death.
twocuriouscats
Searching for Killer Owls
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2011
- Messages
- 886
- Reaction score
- 88
ok. Say he was "involved" with her death. I'm very open to hearing your theory. What do you think happened and again, what was his motive? Tx!
twocuriouscats
Searching for Killer Owls
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2011
- Messages
- 886
- Reaction score
- 88
Was Pak a pimp? We know he transports women for the sex trade. A PIMP? No way. I can't see it. I think in his videos he is somewhat effeminate, and he's a little guy - leading me to believe that he's not interested in women sexually. He was just trying to make easy money IMHO I could be wrong of course!
OnTheCase27
Active Member
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2012
- Messages
- 185
- Reaction score
- 147
To play devils advocate most of your reasoning is purely speculation and has not been reported by any media outlet. There has been no reports of him getting tired of her or her not pulling in as much money. So its purely speculation on your part that any of this happened. While those scenarios do happen with the traditional pimp prostitute relationship I think most would agree Shannon and Michaels was not a traditional pimp/hooker relationship. In contrast LR1 used Information that has been reported to try and hypothesize a logical reason why he left. But still people just have tunnel vision no matter what the evidence suggests.
.
Okay On the Case, let us follow your theory that Shannan and Pak had a 'special' relationship, and it was not exploitive like the traditional sex-trade/pimp relationship.
1) If this was the case and Pak truly cared about Shannan would he be upset that Gus called the cops after Shannan had as well? Or was he only thinking of the consequences to himself?
2) Would Pak have left Oak Beach without Shannan that morning if he really cared about her well being? Or was he only interested in saving himself?
3) Has Pak done anything before or after Shannan's disappearance that shows a 'special' relationship beyond what would one expect?
There is nothing wrong with speculating about what happened, this is how cases are solved. The sleuth comes up with potential hypothesis and then works to prove or disprove them.
This is not speculation: Shannan called 911 and said someone is trying to kill her. Pak was chasing her, Shannan is dead.
Pimp, procurer, facilitator; does it really matter what label is used. being involved in the sex trade for any benefit, money, drugs or whatever is what is a fact. Did not Brewer state he arranged for Shannan's services with PAK? Really the label you use on Pak is irrelevant to solving this case.
Sexual orientation and physical stature has nothing to do a person being in the sex trade. Many LGBTQ are active in the sex trade. Look at the ads.
Breaking Bad
Member
- Joined
- May 15, 2017
- Messages
- 110
- Reaction score
- 39
Pak left Shannan to rot and die in a marsh when she was petrified for her life. He never helped Mari or the family hold a presser for her.
He never attended a presser for Shannan. He has been in hiding for years. He did NOT meet 48 Hours in person, he did NOT go to their news studio
for an interview, he did not allow 48Hours into his home for an interview; he merely texted them and stated that he never touched her. (remember?)
It's in the first 48 Hours of July 12, 2011.
He was interviewed by Louise Ormond only because he was paid money. He was paid because she was not American media.
- Status