Poll for the Armchair Psychologists

[molly333]

Perhaps I'm confused, I pulled your post up to read it again. It appears to me you may have read a book long time ago....

Then it appears to me you used the article from Psychology Today ....made sure to bold what I would suspect you believed would trump Dr Hares body of work. ( which I believe at the time of the above post you were unaware of)

Now you seem to be claiming something else entirely. Not buying it.

I'm too tired to continue with whatever it is you're up to. I'm gonna pull a Nurmi and withdraw ...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

Yeah we're getting tired. I meant that I have known about Hare for a long time--maybe 18 years?

The article stands alone--nothing to do with Hare.

 

[Beaglemania]

I read Hare's book a looong time ago.


Here's an article in psychology today by a clinical psychiatrist. He says Jodi Arias is not a Sociopath and explains why.



Is Jodi Arias a Sociopath?

Is Jodi Arias a battered woman, obsessive woman, a femme fatale or a sociopath?

Published on March 11, 2013 by Dale Archer, M.D. in Reading Between the (Head)Lines
*snip*


Before age 15 and continuing, a history of antisocial behavior: Here is the real problem with labeling Arias as a sociopath. This condition starts in the young teen years, if not before. It is a persistent and consistent behavior over the first three to four decades of the individual- some say for a lifetime. No one has come forward with any prior behavioral issues, legal issues, problems with work, family or friends. She was reportedly a very "good girl" in high school and very “normal”. At this time there are no known problems with previous boyfriends.

Jodi Arias, as you can see, fits the sociopath profile in many, many ways, except for the most important criteria. There is no past history. Based on this, unless there is much we do not know she does not technically meet the DSM IV criteria as a sociopath.

So, now the question is why did she do it? That's the million dollar question.



*snip*

Some experts claim she's a sociopath and it would be easy to bend the rules and say she is close enough to the diagnosis. She lied, disregarded everyone but herself, manipulated, conned, deceived, took a life and refuses to express remorse.[b] But all this occurred after she met Alexander. There was nothing before that.[/b]

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/reading-between-the-headlines/201303/is-jodi-arias-sociopath


IMO

BBM: This is blantantly false period. I cannot even begin to fathom where this comes from?

 

[Beaglemania]

She was looked at by 6 or 7 people in the field of psychology.

Did any one of them call her a psychopath?

Not counting Dr. Samuals and Dr. DeMarte, when and where was she "looked at", as you put it?

 

[Beaglemania]

I disagree regarding Dr. Geffner. He knows how to interpret those tests. He helped develop them. Dr. D was 3 years out of school compared to Dr. G's 30 years experience.

As far as the article is concerned, it shows why people might think she is a sociopath and why the known data about her says she isn't. I thought it was instructive and interesting, which was all it was meant to be.

IMO

He did not help develop those tests. He was merely a "hired gun"...a last ditch effort to salvage something out of the misguided defense quagmire.

 

[Beaglemania]

I read Hare's book a looong time ago.


Here's an article in psychology today by a clinical psychiatrist. He says Jodi Arias is not a Sociopath and explains why.



Is Jodi Arias a Sociopath?

Is Jodi Arias a battered woman, obsessive woman, a femme fatale or a sociopath?

Published on March 11, 2013 by Dale Archer, M.D. in Reading Between the (Head)Lines
*snip*


Before age 15 and continuing, a history of antisocial behavior: Here is the real problem with labeling Arias as a sociopath. This condition starts in the young teen years, if not before. It is a persistent and consistent behavior over the first three to four decades of the individual- some say for a lifetime. No one has come forward with any prior behavioral issues, legal issues, problems with work, family or friends. She was reportedly a very "good girl" in high school and very “normal”. At this time there are no known problems with previous boyfriends.

Jodi Arias, as you can see, fits the sociopath profile in many, many ways, except for the most important criteria. There is no past history. Based on this, unless there is much we do not know she does not technically meet the DSM IV criteria as a sociopath.

So, now the question is why did she do it? That's the million dollar question.



*snip*

Some experts claim she's a sociopath and it would be easy to bend the rules and say she is close enough to the diagnosis. She lied, disregarded everyone but herself, manipulated, conned, deceived, took a life and refuses to express remorse. But all this occurred after she met Alexander. There was nothing before that.



http://[B]www.psychologytoday.com[/...-the-headlines/201303/is-jodi-arias-sociopath


IMO

Psychology Today does a disservice to psychology and to education in general. It grossly oversimplifies some issues, and grossly misrepresents others. There is a stark paucity of real psychology within in it's ad filled pages. Instead, there are short articles that misrepresent scientific findings, self-help nonsense designed to feed narcissistic tendencies and, well, just plain garbage in general.

The ad pages are full of people hawking all sorts of books and tapes designed to separate unhappy people from the contents of their wallets... in much the same way that Mr. Nurmi and Ms. Wilmont fleeced the taxpayers of Arizona with their sham of a defense.

 

[Emmi]

These are not normal adolescent behaviors. Daryl Brewer is not a clinician. I would liken him to more of a "broken individual" who fell hard and fast in love with a manipulative, self-absorbed harlett. In otherwords he was p-whipped.

Silly, broken, Darryl Brewer. He just doesn't know what we know. Plus, he's old, which in itself is pretty creepy.

Are there any actual clinicians posting on this thread? I was wondering if the next edition of the DSM will finally include Self-Absorbed Harlot Disorder (SAHD)?

Seems to me that too many women are not getting the treatment they need, and that an official diagnosis, with capital letters, would help to address this problem. Its inclusion may also, perhaps, help to reduce the stigma that the lower-case "harlot" still, after thousands of years, carries in our society.

 

[BritsKate]

I read Hare's book a looong time ago.


Here's an article in psychology today by a clinical psychiatrist. He says Jodi Arias is not a Sociopath and explains why.



Is Jodi Arias a Sociopath?

Is Jodi Arias a battered woman, obsessive woman, a femme fatale or a sociopath?

Published on March 11, 2013 by Dale Archer, M.D. in Reading Between the (Head)Lines
*snip*


Before age 15 and continuing, a history of antisocial behavior: Here is the real problem with labeling Arias as a sociopath. This condition starts in the young teen years, if not before. It is a persistent and consistent behavior over the first three to four decades of the individual- some say for a lifetime. No one has come forward with any prior behavioral issues, legal issues, problems with work, family or friends. She was reportedly a very "good girl" in high school and very “normal”. At this time there are no known problems with previous boyfriends.

Jodi Arias, as you can see, fits the sociopath profile in many, many ways, except for the most important criteria. There is no past history. Based on this, unless there is much we do not know she does not technically meet the DSM IV criteria as a sociopath.

So, now the question is why did she do it? That's the million dollar question.



*snip*

Some experts claim she's a sociopath and it would be easy to bend the rules and say she is close enough to the diagnosis. She lied, disregarded everyone but herself, manipulated, conned, deceived, took a life and refuses to express remorse. But all this occurred after she met Alexander. There was nothing before that.



http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/reading-between-the-headlines/201303/is-jodi-arias-sociopath


IMO

I think its imperative to note that this article was also penned before the release of the DSM V. The new version not only blends characteristics of antisocial and psychopathic but the previously necessary diagnosis of CD before the age of 15 is GONE for reasons rather obvious, though the DSM V itself has been met with much controversy. There are plenty of clinicians that believe Jodi is antisocial or at least co-morbid. There are plenty that don't too.

In regards to that article alone though, its the very first time I've read of the distinction of 3-4 decades necessary for conclusion of ASPD. Ironically, my ex was diagnosed in his 40s though that was simply because he chose to commit the crime he did when he did. There was a lot of history to support such a conclusion but there were just as many anomalies inconsistent with his diagnosis too. There's a lot I will never know because he was so skilled at deception and manipulation. At the end of it, I can't throw out his whole diagnosis because he was able to keep a job for a few years or maintain a long-term relationship. I have to accept that he may not check every box - but for my sanity and kiddo's safety - his dx is likely as accurate as soft science can be at this stage.

All JMO

 

[Gecko100]

I think its imperative to note that this article was also penned before the release of the DSM V. The new version not only blends characteristics of antisocial and psychopathic but the previously necessary diagnosis of CD before the age of 15 is GONE for reasons rather obvious, though the DSM V itself has been met with much controversy. There are plenty of clinicians that believe Jodi is antisocial or at least co-morbid. There are plenty that don't too.

In regards to that article alone though, its the very first time I've read of the distinction of 3-4 decades necessary for conclusion of ASPD. Ironically, my ex was diagnosed in his 40s though that was simply because he chose to commit the crime he did when he did. There was a lot of history to support such a conclusion but there were just as many anomalies inconsistent with his diagnosis too. There's a lot I will never know because he was so skilled at deception and manipulation. At the end of it, I can't throw out his whole diagnosis because he was able to keep a job for a few years or maintain a long-term relationship. I have to accept that he may not check every box - but for my sanity and kiddo's safety - his dx is likely as accurate as soft science can be at this stage.

All JMO

Owamya mucker boostin'?:seeya:
Do you remember the young guy in the UK who received a lighter sentence because of suffering from narcissistic rage while he bludgeoned his parents to death? I can't remember his name.

 

[Gecko100]

Silly, broken, Darryl Brewer. He just doesn't know what we know. Plus, he's old, which in itself is pretty creepy.

Are there any actual clinicians posting on this thread? I was wondering if the next edition of the DSM will finally include Self-Absorbed Harlot Disorder (SAHD)?

Seems to me that too many women are not getting the treatment they need, and that an official diagnosis, with capital letters, would help to address this problem. Its inclusion may also, perhaps, help to reduce the stigma that the lower-case "harlot" still, after thousands of years, carries in our society.

Hello Emmi, do you have any idea of what Myers-Briggs type you might be, I hope you don't mind me asking.:blushing:

 

[Emmi]

Hello Emmi, do you have any idea of what Myers-Briggs type you might be, I hope you don't mind me asking.:blushing:

Not at all! I've done the test several times, and except for once, I come out as INFP.

That one other time, one letter changed, and I was the same as you--INTP, I think you said? I must have been feeling very thinky that day!

 

[Gecko100]

Silly, broken, Darryl Brewer. He just doesn't know what we know. Plus, he's old, which in itself is pretty creepy.

Are there any actual clinicians posting on this thread? I was wondering if the next edition of the DSM will finally include Self-Absorbed Harlot Disorder (SAHD)?

Seems to me that too many women are not getting the treatment they need, and that an official diagnosis, with capital letters, would help to address this problem. Its inclusion may also, perhaps, help to reduce the stigma that the lower-case "harlot" still, after thousands of years, carries in our society.

Hello there, I am not a psychologist, but I have years of clinical experience in Social Work, which is why I like wider context information that just doesn't focus on individual pathologies, but societal, family, systems, and group pathologies too. That to me completes an assessment, and I guess I wanted to comment about the double standards that you point out.
That to me indicates a social pathology with respect to women's place in society and it makes me question (from far away) if this is a dominant feature in American society? I never really given it much thought, because some of the best feminist thinking emanates from the USA, and it surprises me a bit.
Hope you don't mind me asking yet another question. I don't know where else to ask.:seeya:

 

[MeeBee]

Geffner testified Wednesday that Arias psychological test results support a diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder instead of a personality disorder.

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/05/01/live-blog-will-last-witness-be-arias-lifeline

I never said I just read one book by Hare. Hare is the granddaddy of the study of psychopaths. He is like ALV to DV and Geffner to testing. These people are all the best in their fields and pioneers. I have great respect for Hare.

IMO

You are forgetting one thing molly: Dr. Geffner has already been determined by the courts to be "nothing more than a hired gun." He takes your side and runs with it. When asked if he was aware that Dr. Samuels also diagnosed her with a personality disorder, he said no, he was not made aware of that. When asked based on what info that he was able to determine that Dr. D was inexperienced, he said it was based on the info that was given to him by the DT, which was limited. I don't, for the life of me, understand why you put so much stock into what these clowns have to say, especially ALV.

Also, isn't it odd how the DT fought that diagnosis so hard in the guilt phase, yet yesterday decided to use Dr. D's diagnosis as a mitigating factor? They knew what she was, they just wanted to combat it because it flew in the face of the PTSD "diagnosis." When they realized that the jury wasn't buying that, they embraced the Borderline diagnosis. So like I said, I don't know why you are buying so much into what the DT is selling when it is clearly all just a ploy.

 

[Gecko100]

Not at all! I've done the test several times, and except for once, I come out as INFP.

That one other time, one letter changed, and I was the same as you--INTP, I think you said? I must have been feeling very thinky that day!

Oh no, not thinky! Now you know how I feel lol. The core aspects don't change, but your opposite or your shadow does. As we age we expect to strengthen our opposing sides, which for your development would be working
on the less strong ESTJ. It's quite fascinating because it gives you a window into our selves, and our strengths.
I need to take care of my ESFJ type, so very similar.
So,
1x INFP
1x INTP

We have three aspects in common!!
Anyone else?
I hope it's ok to put this here in the psych thread, because it is influential in how others see us.

 

[Emmi]

Hello there, I am not a psychologist, but I have years of clinical experience in Social Work, which is why I like wider context information that just doesn't focus on individual pathologies, but societal, family, systems, and group pathologies too. That to me completes an assessment, and I guess I wanted to comment about the double standards that you point out.
That to me indicates a social pathology with respect to women's place in society and it makes me question (from far away) if this is a dominant feature
in American society? I never really given it much thought, because some of the best feminist thing emanates from the USA, and it surprises me a bit.
Hope you don't mind me asking yet another question. I don't know where else to ask.:seeya:

Oh dear, big question! Perhaps some of the best feminist thinking comes out of the United States because of the paradox of American (and Canadian, of course) women being free and empowered enough to not only notice, but to call out, double standards and other inequalities? Not that that isn't the case in other places, including European countries, but have you ever tried to read feminist texts translated from French? Quirky stuff! But fun.

Anyway, I know that you're right that reducing all pathologies to the individual misses a big part of the picture. We know about the family, but there are such things as group and social pathologies as well. And, while there may be such things as brains that are broken or flawed, it's never really a good idea to ignore all the rest, is it? I mean, it's not as though organic mental illness does not also interact--affect and be affected by--with the social/group/family environment, and that environment may include sexism, racism, double standards, etc.

 

[MeeBee]

I think its imperative to note that this article was also penned before the release of the DSM V. The new version not only blends characteristics of antisocial and psychopathic but the previously necessary diagnosis of CD before the age of 15 is GONE for reasons rather obvious, though the DSM V itself has been met with much controversy. There are plenty of clinicians that believe Jodi is antisocial or at least co-morbid. There are plenty that don't too.

In regards to that article alone though, its the very first time I've read of the distinction of 3-4 decades necessary for conclusion of ASPD. Ironically, my ex was diagnosed in his 40s though that was simply because he chose to commit the crime he did when he did. There was a lot of history to support such a conclusion but there were just as many anomalies inconsistent with his diagnosis too. There's a lot I will never know because he was so skilled at deception and manipulation. At the end of it, I can't throw out his whole diagnosis because he was able to keep a job for a few years or maintain a long-term relationship. I have to accept that he may not check every box - but for my sanity and kiddo's safety - his dx is likely as accurate as soft science can be at this stage.

All JMO

Not only that, but to say Jodi exhibited no personality traits before she met Travis is simply not true. If you haven't studied her, and only look on the surface of the media, it would seem that she was just a normal girl up until now.

We have heard too many stories and too many anecdotes that points to Jodi's psychopathy from a young age. Manipulating and playing the victim even as a child in elementary school. Bashing her brother over the head and her behavior afterward. Sure, sometimes we kids go too far with our siblings from time to time. But with a baseball bat? And it was her behavior when the babysitter caught her after the incident that is most chilling. When kids do such a thing, they know immediately what they have done is wrong, even from a very young age, and Jodi was older. They immediately feel some level of shame or remorse and it registers. When the babysitter questioned Jodi she was cold, she denied it, and seemed to not react at all to the questioning. That is not normal and that is not how a normal child reacts to getting in trouble. It is something that points to her early sociopathy.

Kicking the family dog. Locking a cat up to starve for two weeks and then not understanding (or caring) it was wrong. Throwing a tantrum at work over a simple misunderstanding (kicking things, yelling). Having scared friends call in the middle of the night to get her help.

These things don't just happen. People don't just switch and change one day. There was a history there, even if people didn't realize it or realize what they were seeing. Knowing what she did and what she is, it all comes together.

 

[Gecko100]

Oh dear, big question! Perhaps some of the best feminist thinking comes out of the United States because of the paradox of American (and Canadian, of course) women because they are free and empowered enough to not only notice, but to call out, double standards and other inequalities? Not that that isn't the case in other places, including European countries, but have you ever tried to read feminist texts translated from French? Quirky stuff! But fun.

Anyway, I know that you're right that reducing all pathologies to the individual misses a big part of the picture. We know about the family, but there are such a thing as group and social pathologies as well. And, while there may be such things as brains that are broken or flawed, it's never really a good idea to ignore all the rest, is it? I mean, it's not as though organic mental illness does not also interact--affect and be affected by--with the social/group/family environment, and that environment may include sexism, racism, double standards, etc.

Are you referring to the psychoanalytical work of Luce Irigary by any chance?
It's interesting to notice non-notice, because what can happen in between the two spaces of notice vs non-notice. A bit of a philosophical statement, but that's what you get with INTP's lol.
I can only agree with what you say, there is nowhere near enough contextual analysis it would weigh very very heavily on my soul to miss these parts and accept judgement.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

The IQ score and its rating refers to the test. One can't just throw around IQ scores. One has to relate it to the specific IQ test.

Dr. D told us that for the IQ test that she gave Jodi, her overall score of 119 is in the highly intelligent range, and her specific score in verbal in the high 130's is as high as it gets.

So, yes, Jodi is very smart. But, she does not have the ability to relate to people except in a contrived way, and I think this is best described by autism.

Dr. Geffner explained that you have to see a consistency of behavior over years. You can't take one behavior from ten years ago, and another behavior from five years ago, and another from two years ago, and lump them together to create a personality disorder. You will see all the behaviors manifesting altogether consistently from middle school to the present. That's what Dr. D. did not see.

He said what you are calling "the PD score" related to empathy, not psychopathy, that it was poorly named.

IMO

"Before age 15 and continuing, a history of antisocial behavior: Here is the real problem with labeling Arias as a sociopath. This condition starts in the young teen years, if not before. It is a persistent and consistent behavior over the first three to four decades of the individual- some say for a lifetime. No one has come forward with any prior behavioral issues, legal issues, problems with work, family or friends. She was reportedly a very "good girl" in high school and very “normal”. At this time there are no known problems with previous boyfriends."

Firstly, she dropped out of school and moved to Oregon with her boyfriend at 15. So asserting people in school called her a "good girl" is completely false as she WAS NOT in school at that time.

Antisocial and Sociopath are completely different things!!!!

A sociopath can go years underdetected because although they lack understanding of human emotion, they are intelligent enough to function in society by creating different false personaes or masks.

Also if you are saying Sociopathy begins at early adolescence, wouldn't this be around the time she started trying to manipulate and grow pot and runaway with boys so she did not have to follow her parents rules? 14 or 15? Sounds like a teenager beginning to exhibit signs of a sociopath.

I'm sorry I just don't see where you are going with this.

You really should study about real time perception in people with schizotypal personality disorder types as well as learning disorders.

People with ADD, autism, and even schizophrenia have issues with real time comprehension of information. Most mental disorders (like autism) exist because the host cannot process information as quickly - so their attention spans are much shorter than the attention span of a person who is mentally present or "in reality".

So if Jodi is so quick witted and precise, prompt, and Present when answering our inquiries in our reality, I don't see her as having a mental disability.

And how does one receive a cumulative IQ of 119 but the verbal portion rates 130 or so as you also stated earlier? Math doesn't add up...

At any rate, 119 is an average IQ foR someone that claims to be as smart as Einstein (his IQ 160 probably higher)

 

[BritsKate]

Owamya mucker boostin'?:seeya:
Do you remember the young guy in the UK who received a lighter sentence because of suffering from narcissistic rage while he bludgeoned his parents to death? I can't remember his name.

The case that drives me mad, you mean? :giggle: Brian Blackwell. Unfortunately, imo, in the quest to de-stigmatize mental illness we've come close to running the risk of absolving those afflicted with Cluster B personality disorders of any wrong doing, ever. (Hubby's a psych nurse for the NHS. It affects my opinion.)

Fortunately there's been no repeat of a Brian Blackwell...and though his charge was lowered to manslaughter, he was still sentenced to life - which as you know, means very little, but that's true for all such sentences barring a whole life tariff; he was sentenced to a minimum 12 year term in 2005.

 

[Gecko100]

Does anyone on here practice Systemic Family Therapy? Do you have any views on JA's family, or on Group analysis?
Thanks

 

[Gecko100]

The case that drives me mad, you mean? :giggle: Brian Blackwell. Unfortunately, imo, in the quest to de-stigmatize mental illness we've come close to running the risk of absolving those afflicted with Cluster B personality disorders of any wrong doing, ever. (Hubby's a psych nurse for the NHS. It affects my opinion.)

Fortunately there's been no repeat of a Brian Blackwell...and though his charge was lowered to manslaughter, he was still sentenced to life - which as you know, means very little, but that's true for all such sentences barring a whole life tariff; he was sentenced to a minimum 12 year term in 2005.

Thanks mucker, I knew his name had 'black' in it somewhere but I'm old and losing it...:seeya:
Yes, that whole case was an interesting argument. I didn't necessarily agree with it, but I found it interesting as a defence strategy. He may also have been considered young enough for 'treatment' which we know doesn't help much at all, especially not in prison. Was he sentenced to adult goal? Not long before he resurfaces...
Nae mer time t' dae hen. Yons ma brogue, it's braw n' bricht the noo...och aye...