Poll: Was Shannan Gilbert Murdered?

Discussion in 'LISK CLOSED General Discussion Threads' started by PreciousDust, Jul 24, 2012.

?

Was Shannan Gilbert Murdered?

  1. Yes, and I have a POI in mind (and he's among those who can be talked about at WS)

    33 vote(s)
    14.3%
  2. Yes, and I have a POI in mind (though he's not presently among those who can be talked about here)

    15 vote(s)
    6.5%
  3. Yes, I think she was, and I have some theories, but no specific person in mind.

    59 vote(s)
    25.5%
  4. If I had to guess, I'd guess that "yes", she was murdered.

    65 vote(s)
    28.1%
  5. If I had to guess, I'd guess that "no", she was not murdered.

    32 vote(s)
    13.9%
  6. No, I firmly believe (think) Shannan Gilbert was not murdered.

    27 vote(s)
    11.7%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Puggle

    Puggle Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,726
    Likes Received:
    1,001
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I would have replied with quote...but that was one very long post.....I believe DNA will one day take a big hit. Just because your DNA is there doesn't necessarily mean you did it[/B]

    Yes true....but it would be very hard to justify ones DNA being on say 2 or 3 victims...or say 5 or 6 victims or....we'll I'm sure you get the point. The body of evidence when one persons DNA is found on Multiple victims...that's going to be a bit hard to explain, isn't it?
     


  2. LINative13

    LINative13 New Member

    Messages:
    1,366
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Beyond a reasonable doubt is the key
     
  3. LikeAHunter

    LikeAHunter Member

    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    18
    The advances in DNA technology are not only getting more bad guys off the street (JB), but also freeing more of the wrongly convicted and allowing LE to quickly rule out more innocent suspects.

    Science is a wonderful thing and I, for one, am thankful for the continuing advances in DNA technology.
     
  4. hawkshaw

    hawkshaw Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,592
    Likes Received:
    1,371
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, if I was on a jury I might tend to convict if DNA was on two or three bodies. That is hard to explain. In Suffolk County I would give it a lot of serious thought before I convicted. They are capable of most anything.

    DNA - this is a true story. Back more than 20 years ago a bum goes to a prostitute and asks her to keep the used condoms of her customers. He pays her $5 for every condom. She gives him 9. He rapes and kills a girl and deposits the semen on the victim. The cops think they have a gang rape. The hooker comes forward and the rest is history.

    In a famous case in Suffolk the cops picked up a guy named Diaz for the murder of a Maureen N. One detective said he identified Diaz because three people came forward and said they recognized Diaz in the newspaper. The photo never appeared in any paper. Then everybody, including the detective and the DA started lying. That detective was K.James McCready. His partner said that Diaz told him he cleaned up the knife he used to kill MN, and threw it in the back yard. The detective found the knife. The knife was later found behind a refrigerator not more than 15' from where the body lain, and it was covered with her blood. That knife was found several months later when MN's then estranged husband came by the house to clean it up.

    Those detectives prepared a 3 or 4 page statement. The first page had Diaz's pedigree, the rest was his 'confession'. They presented it to him to sign. He only signed the first page and refused to sigh the 'confession'. It was offered into evidence at the trial. He was acquitted at trial. The 'jury' is still out as to whether or not he did the deed, if he did, then a killer got away with murder because the detectives lied.

    McCready went on to further fame and fortune when he took the lead in the Tankleff Case. The other detective was transferred out of homicide but continued to work at SCPD.
     
  5. Emre E

    Emre E Active Member

    Messages:
    667
    Likes Received:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    28
    IMO Bittrolff's best defense should be going for two counts of voluntary manslaughter. Something like "gals made fun of my special pinna". His lawyer may have screwed him up at his arraignment.
     
  6. hawkshaw

    hawkshaw Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,592
    Likes Received:
    1,371
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If you folks read only one chapter of Peter Kolker's book, "The Lost Girls' you should read a chapter called "THE JOHN". It is Kolker's interview of Joseph Brewer. I will give you some excerpts:

    P.350

    ...... Another laugh. ( Brewer talking to Kolker)

    "Not that I was suspected! The police, I was never a suspect.' Really? He does say he knows something special about the case.........But there is a lot out there I know, I don't want to to say this because a lot of them are my FRIENDS (emp.added), but at the end of this, the police are going to have a lot of pie on their face."

    Q. Why would the police have 'pie on their face' ?
     
  7. Emre E

    Emre E Active Member

    Messages:
    667
    Likes Received:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Looking at your posts and newspapers, I say under different political circumstances I would be expecting a severe crackdown and that would be "nasty pie".

    One special type of criminal for me is "burglars who burglarize unattended property". IMHO all means of leniency must be extended to those, even to the point of "no jail time", provided they return the stolen items or cover for the damages or agree to work for public services, or agree to cuts from their paychecks. That kind of larceny is in my point of view represents a "sort of" good will to avoid risky encounters, because property is the only loss that you can literally get "Justice" .

    There's no point in sending a non-violent criminal to a rough institution to get him filled up with anger - we all know the risks - and get him educated.

    I will be following Christopher Loeb. I hope he turns around his life. Though I'm thinking of a possibility that he may never walk out, if he ever gets out of "College" and turns into a violent criminal and say, kills someone, I will at least be knowing the name of the pervert who caused all that.
     
  8. mcme

    mcme Driven away

    Messages:
    487
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    18
    And if they're not caught, well good for them, they got away with it without even a slap on the wrist? I'm guessing you've never had anything you enjoyed and worked hard for taken from you.
     
  9. Emre E

    Emre E Active Member

    Messages:
    667
    Likes Received:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    28
    My house was burglarized while I was sleeping, I was working very hard at that time, sleeping at 5AM to make a little cash on some additional job I was doing and waking up at 7 AM to go to my actual work, and money was really short, I know how bad it feels. But we have two options, either a property damage is restored or we put a burglar in prison to make him a killer instead of giving him a chance to work for the damage he caused. I believe first option is more comely.

    EDIT: I am still resentful for the incident, they didn't find who did it. (It was a series of three in our apartment complex, last being my place) I didn't get my money or my phone back. If they found him and give me my phone and money back I would be simply satisfied. And I'm not saying they should NEVER be put to prison, but the options must be carefully calculated. IMHO Deliberately avoiding confrontation is a good will and deserves leniency.
     
  10. mcme

    mcme Driven away

    Messages:
    487
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Sending a burglar to prison does not, in my opinion, make them a killer. Not punishing a person for a crime committed, in my opinion, leads them to believe it's also ok to do it again, and to do anything else they feel like, like maybe murder, with no consequence.
     
  11. Gerontion

    Gerontion Registered User

    Messages:
    178
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    A. I believe that the gentleman in question (if you can call him that), is mixing his metaphors. No doubt he means "egg on their face". Why he thinks this, I have no idea.

    IMHO
     
  12. hawkshaw

    hawkshaw Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,592
    Likes Received:
    1,371
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Any person that commits a burglary of a home at 5am without any convincing evidence the premises is empty is - IMHO, a murderer or potential murderer.
     
  13. Emre E

    Emre E Active Member

    Messages:
    667
    Likes Received:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Watch the gallery of crimes and try to guess the sentences.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BU0yN4B5JY

    It ends with a excellent finale, a father finally finds her daughter on his own and calls 911. He waits for one and a half hour for police to arrive at the scene, in front of the house in which his daughter is being raped.
     
  14. Tugela

    Tugela Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,708
    Likes Received:
    402
    Trophy Points:
    83
    DNA does not prove or disprove anything other than that there is (or isn't, as the case may be) a personal connection between the suspect and the victim. DNA as evidence is not going to take a "hit" as you phrase it, you just don't understand its use in an investigation.

    In the case you cited, if an adults DNA is found inside the body of a dead 14 year old then there is clearly a connection, and the only way for it to have got there is that a crime occurred. It may not prove that the accused killed her, but it DOES make a connection between the two and it DOES provide an obvious motive. You expect us to believe that this guy left his girlfriend in the middle of the night to go and secretly meet up with the victim, have sex with her, then drop her off at some random store and go back home, then the next day the girl is mysteriously found dead. And that it was sheer coincidence? Really??

    Incidentally, the outcome of the most recent appeal (I think), as well as the evidence presented, can be seen here
     
  15. hawkshaw

    hawkshaw Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,592
    Likes Received:
    1,371
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There is no question CL had sex with JM. He will eventually admit as much. He denied having sex with JM because she was 14 and he was 19.

    "Random" store? It was a local 7-11 with the manager present. The manager gave a statement he saw JM at his store after being dropped off at a time that would have exonerated CL. He changed that to another day after taking a visit from SCPD detectives.
     
  16. hawkshaw

    hawkshaw Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,592
    Likes Received:
    1,371
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There was also a second sample of DNA on the victim the cops never bothered to identify. Most likely it was deposited by the killer.

    You talk about COINCIDENCES? Try this one out for size. SG is at Oak Beach. She is a prostitute. She advertises on Craigslist. She spends 3 hours in a house. She will run out of the house and will be found dead some months later. The ME has yet to find a cause of death. By SHEER coincidence 4 other working gals advertising on CL JUST HAPPENED to be found dead in the same area. AND the ME was able to determine a cause of death. A very dumb police commissioner and a very corrupted DA will go back and forth as to the number of killers there are in this case.

    You want coincidences? How about this one - at about the same time the CL/JM case went down the Tankleff Case went down. MT has since been released. SCPD has been well known to produce some of the best liars of any police department - or is just that a coincidence? JM's little girlfriend, WC just happens to take off to France, and has still not given a statement to the parents of CL. Last seen in Boston. She ran down the block in NYC when CL's parents found her only to ask her if she was with JM after 130AM. You want another coincidence?

    I went to interview a young gal that was at a Jiffy Lube parking lot when a burglary occurred. My son in law would be charged with that burglary. I went to see her after the trial to satisfy my curiosity. The young lady was spared cross examination because the lawyer believed the case for the defense was clearly made.

    The young lady (24) was asked by me one simple question: When did the burglar alarm begin to ring: Before you entered the rear parking lot to make a U-Turn, while you were in it, or while you left it and your wheels hit the street. She and her mother ran off like scared rabbits.

    Is it a COINCIDENCE her father is a retired ATF Agent that worked with SCPD cops? Is it a COINCIDENCE he now works for the NYS Insurance Fund in Suffolk and that office is pretty much the private post career repository to Suffolk County LE?
     
  17. Puggle

    Puggle Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,726
    Likes Received:
    1,001
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Strange that FB pages for the AC victims came up...after they went missing.....poster confronted a relative and said that Mays Landing addresses showed up only to be told there was no connection....strange how SG body was found...with direct pathway by the field cutters..strange that loving relative FB page shows a less than flattering picture of Amber....Strange that...all internet searchers that include the phrase LISK come up with a generic page associated with DPH....strange how...Natasha Jugo has no history....ahhh...now she doed on myspace with a generic contact that uses the same profile pic for FB and Myspace.....lot of crap!!!...
     
  18. hawkshaw

    hawkshaw Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,592
    Likes Received:
    1,371
    Trophy Points:
    113
    TUGELA: Thanks for posting the link to the appeal - I had forgotten about that. Those three appellate judges must have been named Moe, Larry, and Shemp. Trust me I could write several pages on the decision.

    On the first page they said the victim call CL at 11:45AM. She called him, not the other way around. That could have clearly been established with the phone records. Why do you think a 14 year old girl called a 19year old kid? Do you think she felt safe with him? He couldn't resist the opportunity for a roll in the hay, and he made the biggest mistake of his young life.

    Sure he wanted to hide it because of her age. What would you have done, and what do you think you would have done if you learned that after you had sex with her she was murdered?

    Why would he murder her if she willingly gave him free sex?

    Moe, Larry & Shemp said CL had scratch marks on his arm. That is debatable. The assumption is the victim scratched him while fighting for her life. I never heard any evidence her fingers were scratched for skin tissue. If so, WHY NOT as that would have been the clincher to prove guilt.

    Then the DA put on an expert from Oceanography giving an expert opinion as to when the body was dumped in the shallow water. When her body was found her bra was dry. That was no salt content on the bra.

    Then there is the attorney that worked part time for the DA and signed an affidavit opening him up to perjury that he jogged by the location every morning at 730AM and DID NOT see a body. Why would a lawyer lie to protect a young man he never met? He wouldn't say he might have been mistaken, he said he was sure there was no body there when he passed earlier that morning.

    Then there is that classic BS from SCPD Homicide when they testified that CL told them: 'You don't have me good for this one.', thereby implying guilt without admitting to it. I call that the "half-lie". Moe, Larry, and Shemp went right for it because they didn't have the courage to over turn the conviction.

    And why didn't the SCPD try to ID the second sample of DNA?

    Where did the parolee that some believed killed JM go. He was on parole and he was a registered informant for SCPD Narcotics. They couldn't/wouldn't find a parolee that disappeared for more than 3 months?

    BTW, I have a copy of the lawyer's affidavit and I can tell you he clearly said the body wasn't there when he passed the location at 730AM. He is a respected attorney practicing on Main Street, Northport, NY.

    Then there was the manager of the 7-11, not some 'random' location as you suggested in your post. He told the investigators that he saw JM at the store after 100AM. That would change after he was re-visited by detectives. What did they do to threaten him to change his story? The young lady was found dead at about 920AM. You know as well as I do that such a crime would have gone viral throughout the neighborhood within hours. Do you really believe he was mistaken when he gave his initial account to the detectives?

    This young lady, after leaving CL went to another party across the water where she was later found. She had an older drug addict boyfriend that threatened to hurt her if she didn't give back a necklace he took from his mother to give to JM. The cops never bothered to find him. I wonder why?

    When AG Cuomo's office sent two of his investigators to interview CL in the prison to elicit a statement from him that his long time friend/inmate, Marty Tankleff told him he told CL that he killed his parents, CL refused to do so when he could have bargained for relief of his sentence of better conditions. He refused to lie for them. Cuomo never put that in his final Tankleff report, but he did say other inmates came forward and said Tankleff told them. Even one nut case that met MT for the first time and MT told him he killed his parents.

    The judges made a big deal of CL being seen driving in the area where JM lived. But we knew that, didn't we? So what was the big deal.

    What this feckless judges do is decide the case before they read the facts and then make everything fit their decision. They are no better than the cops and the DA. It is one of the greatest myths of the criminal justice system that you will get a fair shake in the appellate court.

    When my son in law filed his appeal I showed it to several lawyers and even a judge known as a hanging judge. They all read it and said it was adequate for a reversal, and they all added not to expect the appellate court to do the right thing because they don't have the guts to do it.
     
  19. hawkshaw

    hawkshaw Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,592
    Likes Received:
    1,371
    Trophy Points:
    113
    711= When they needed to get a deli owner to lie for them in my son in law's case the deli owner didn't want to be bothered. The manager of the night of the burglary had moved upstate and he was avoiding them to return to testify/lie. I saw in a detective's notebook to remind himself to check for ABC Violations ( liquor law violations) to see if they had leverage to get him to lie for them.

    I know of another case where they wanted to have a club bouncer lie for them and he refused to do so. They told him they visited his house and found he had no CO for a deck. He testified.

    In the Deli case they tried to get evidence in that a black man was seen leaving the deli through a broken door window. The DA tried to say that Eddie W was black that he was the same Eddie W ( a black man at the king kullen burglary) Now if that wasn't a stretch of the imagination I don't know what was. it was an even bigger streeeeeetch because Eddie W was sitting in a Virginia Jail for both crimes when the burglaries occurred. Those morons that call themselves DA's and detectives NEVER bothered to check. Why should they because 12 nitwits sitting on a jury were going to take their word, and their crooked DA is never going to hold them accountable for their perjury.
     
  20. Tugela

    Tugela Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,708
    Likes Received:
    402
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Just because the appeals judges did not agree with you is no reason to insult them.

    We know she called him, we don't know WHY she called him. You are assuming that she called him to have sex, but there is no evidence for that. Perhaps she called him for some other reason and that reason led to her death? Obviously under those circumstances he would not want to say the real reason, and instead would give some more benign version that was more favorable to him.

    If there was a problem with the time of death estimate, the defence had the opportunity to point that out. Apparently they did not. That leaves the victim dead within 2 hours of calling the accused. In other words there is not much opportunity for anyone else to have done it given that the accused would have had to drive out to her and have sex as well. So he did this, and then she was almost immediately killed for no reason and dumped by some mysterious stranger who left nothing?

    The 7-11 is a random location for the purposes of that case. Just because the manager saw the victim does not mean that the accused was not sitting in the car around the corner (or wherever). Remember that at 1AM it would still be inside the window for the homicide. It does not exonerate the accused, even if the manager subsequently changed details. All it does is make the managers account of seeing her unreliable, and that does not help the accused in the slightest.

    The claim of a defence witness that the accused was somewhere else at the time means nothing considering that another witness was alleging that the accused tried to get her to make an alibi. How can you exclude the possibility that the same thing happen with the other witness, only in that instance the attempt was successful?

    You only have the accused's claim that the sex was consensual. You are assuming that it was simply because it could not be proven otherwise. Incidentally, as a former LEO you are (or should be) well aware that scratches can arise in a struggle from things other than fingernails. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    An affidavit from some lawyer who claims to not have seen a body while jogging is irrelevant. Unless he was specifically looking for a body he could easily not have noticed it. When you run you become focussed on what is front of you and engrossed in your thoughts. It is a sort of tunnel vision. Unless something specifically attracts your attention you could easily miss it. So, if he SAW something, it would be relevant, but the fact that he DIDN'T is irrelevant since he simply may not have noticed it even if it was there.

    If the victim went to another party then surely you think that someone would have noticed her there? Where were are all these people at trial? There is no mention of that - where does that allegation come from? Perhaps the story that "she went to another party" was another made up claim to provide an indirect alibi to the accused? Did you consider that possibility.

    Again, regarding Cuomo's investigators, you are going on the say-so of CL that he saw these guys. Maybe he didn't. Jailhouse snitches are unreliable, but it works both ways. Just because he claims he refused to snitch doesn't make him more credible. It just makes him more manipulative.

    Here is a more plausible alternative: There was some sort of conflict between these two, she called to try to resolve it. But instead there was a fight and she got her head bashed in. Now it is cover up mode. Creating alibis and reasons why it wasn't me. Happens all the time. All of the evidence presented by both sides, as best as I can tell, would be consistent with something like that happening. It is beyond dispute (apparently) that he met up with her, the call she made, the presence of his DNA inside her, evidence of her presence in his car, and evidence of his car on her body. So, he meets up with her for unknown reasons, sex happens (which may or may not be consensual) and then she is dead, all within the space of 2 hours. There is evidence after the fact of an effort to conceal the nature of this visit. A reasonable person on hearing this in a jury would conclude after being given the two options of (a) the accused killed her; or (b) a random stranger killed her without leaving any evidence, that on the balance of reasonable probability that the accused was in fact the murderer. They would not need to know the specifics of what happened, all that is required is that there is motive and opportunity outside of which it is unlikely that someone else was the killer.

    You are given a fair shake at the appellate level, BUT you have to follow the law since it is the law the judges will rule on, they don't retry the case. Also, in trial the accused has the benefit of presumption of innocence and the prosecution has to prove the case. When you get to the appellate division there is a presumption of guilt and the appellants have to prove the conviction was in error. So it is the reverse of the trial and the onus is on the convicted person to prove that evidence in trial was faulty or present new evidence that proves innocence.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page



  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice