Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert #2

WINDSOR

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My goodness. Listening to the call is unsettling. IMO something was a catalyst for her reaction to the situation. At times she sounded coherent and others not so much. Whatever that trigger was it likely caused her death. When looking at the map of where she was running, it is still hard to tell why and how she ended in the marsh area. It was pitch dark. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't she remove most of her clothing along the way? Something else I can't fully wrap my head around. Maybe it is just me but I am still not sure why the 911 calls needed to be held in secrecy for so long.
-We have no idea if Shannan removed her clothes herself, or somebody else did.
-The calls were held in secrecy to protect someone. If the 911 call was released promptly, there would be great public pressure to see charges laid aginst both Brewer and Pak. My belief is that those two men know a lot more than they have reveled, and in open court other co-conspirators could be named.
 

WINDSOR

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There's much discussion about the fact that Shannan was hired from out of town. She and three of the GB4 were all from out of town; and in reality, Amber was not a local either. She had only moved to NY in 2009. As Long Island has no shortage of its own sex workers, why would LISK be targeting workers who are not LI locals???
If the LISK had a relatively high profile in his local area, he would feel more comfortable recruiting an out of town girl to protect his identity.
 

Bose

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Ray is overreaching with the belt imo.....no way is Hackett LISK. Is Hackett responsible for Shannans death? Maybe, but If so, the only thing I can see is he gave her a sedative, or whatever other drug that may have given her an overdose, etc....

Is Ray saying Hackett chased her down & strangled her? I dont see it......it could also be an accident by exposure as well.

Ray has had tunnel vision theory from the beginning, & his mind wont change no matter what evidence comes out/produced in the future.

The only thing we can all do is speculate on what happened because unless the detectives have more than theyre letting on, I dont see anything changing.

I hope things do change. I do think that anyone working on the case at SCPD who had ties to Hackett should resign, at the very least. Same goes for those who may have personal friendships/ties to the old regime. Harrison is going ahead and giving us some of what he can, and I applaud him for that, and thank him. Maybe an independent investigation is warranted or needed.

I agree, I think it's a stretch to tie Hackett completely to LISK. If there is data SCPD has re: Hackett's whereabouts during the GB4 murders, solid info showing where he was, that would probably help merge or separate the cases. If he was around and it was covered up, that's heinous. Seriously. If he was not around, or there is solid proof he was elsewhere during the GB4 murders, that should be case closed on that part of the story.

I do believe CPH is culpable, in some way, for Shannan's death, and I'm leaning toward dosing her with wrong dosage or something inappropriate that would make him responsible medically for her death. However; CPH has been very careful to deflect as much as possible (and probably lie) about treating her at all (to escape culpability). IMO, I stand with my original thoughts about him: if he is even a real doctor, he is a lousy one, not responsible, and probably treats people or has treated people in the past outside of the scope of his expertise. He could be a "Dr. Feelgood" type of doctor, or used as such, by others through the years. In his mind he may be qualified to do what he wants and dispense what the wants. But, that doesn't matter; the only thing that matters is if people wind up damaged by his actions, or dead. Good Samaritan, or malicious intent, neither matter as a priority to me--that's secondary, and would come into play if he intentionally killed Shannan.

Speaking of Good Sam, the hospital, that was mentioned, maybe she would be alive if someone called and it was an "accident." The thought of that scenario gets my blood boiling. If CPH did try to "calm" her, and then realized, "Whoops, that didn't work," it goes against everything a true medical professional is supposed to stand for. He should have called emergency services and owned up, instead being afraid of getting sued, or going to jail, if that was the case.
 

jollypup

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I hope things do change. I do think that anyone working on the case at SCPD who had ties to Hackett should resign, at the very least. Same goes for those who may have personal friendships/ties to the old regime. Harrison is going ahead and giving us some of what he can, and I applaud him for that, and thank him. Maybe an independent investigation is warranted or needed.

I agree, I think it's a stretch to tie Hackett completely to LISK. If there is data SCPD has re: Hackett's whereabouts during the GB4 murders, solid info showing where he was, that would probably help merge or separate the cases. If he was around and it was covered up, that's heinous. Seriously. If he was not around, or there is solid proof he was elsewhere during the GB4 murders, that should be case closed on that part of the story.

I do believe CPH is culpable, in some way, for Shannan's death, and I'm leaning toward dosing her with wrong dosage or something inappropriate that would make him responsible medically for her death. However; CPH has been very careful to deflect as much as possible (and probably lie) about treating her at all (to escape culpability). IMO, I stand with my original thoughts about him: if he is even a real doctor, he is a lousy one, not responsible, and probably treats people or has treated people in the past outside of the scope of his expertise. He could be a "Dr. Feelgood" type of doctor, or used as such, by others through the years. In his mind he may be qualified to do what he wants and dispense what the wants. But, that doesn't matter; the only thing that matters is if people wind up damaged by his actions, or dead. Good Samaritan, or malicious intent, neither matter as a priority to me--that's secondary, and would come into play if he intentionally killed Shannan.

Speaking of Good Sam, the hospital, that was mentioned, maybe she would be alive if someone called and it was an "accident." The thought of that scenario gets my blood boiling. If CPH did try to "calm" her, and then realized, "Whoops, that didn't work," it goes against everything a true medical professional is supposed to stand for. He should have called emergency services and owned up, instead being afraid of getting sued, or going to jail, if that was the case.
Hackett is just looking for attention. Shannon's boyfriend has claimed he is responsible for him even having her mothers phone number. In addition, with the release of the 911 calls, I honestly believe Pak is innocent. He has never changed his story, and there is no record of him ever connecting with Brewer beforehand. I definitely do believe Shannon had drugs in her system. Those drugs were likely picked up when Brewer took her to a "store". I say "store" because based on Pak's timeline and the remote location of the house, there is no way they actually went to a store. Therefore they likely went to another individual's house to get drugs. Could that have been Hackett's house where he was involved? Possibly. To me Brewer is still much more likely to be involved and/or responsible. Unfortunately, how will we ever solve this case without Brewer (or for arguments sake Hackett) confessing? We will likely never know what happened to Shannon. In addition, what if LISK just claims her as one of his victims once he is caught? To me, there is no way she is involved in the GB4/LISK but we know from the past that killers will lie and claim victims that weren't actually theirs. All in all, I feel the most for the family. Shannon deserved so much more. Everything just stated came more or less from the LISK: Long Island Serial Killer podcast. To me, this is the most informative podcast that has the true details of the case. Worth a listen
 

JazzCPK

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Those drugs were likely picked up when Brewer took her to a "store". I say "store" because based on Pak's timeline and the remote location of the house, there is no way they actually went to a store. Therefore they likely went to another individual's house to get drugs.

The only reason I buy the store excuse is because we see an outgoing call to CVS from SG's cell phone at 2:55am. The call lasted 1 minute. The call was made specifically to the 24-Hour West Islip CVS - which is about a 14 minute drive from Brewer's house. At that time of night (and Pak did mention in his deposition that Brewer was going fast) he probably could have made it in half that time. In Brewer's deposition, though, he states that he did not go into the West Islip CVS with Shannan, but does make mention that he may have gone to the Shell station, instead. Unfortunately, we don't get much else from him because he them pleads the 5th for pretty much every follow-up question. The Shell station is only 9 minutes from his house (probably 5 mins each way, if speeding).

Being that this was 2010, I can imagine Shannan calling CVS to inquire if they are actually open. Since JB mentions he goes to that Shell station all the time, and it is slightly closer, perhaps plans changed and they opted to go to the Shell Station instead. SG is still on the clock, during this, after all.

In Pak's deposition, he mentions that he doesn't recall them returning, and that the next thing he remembers is Shannan calling him around 4:00am to extend another hour. We see a 1 minute call to Pak from SG at 4:09am - but they were already back in the house by then.

That leaves roughly an hour of unaccounted time when SG and JB could have quickly drove over to Shell or CVS, picked stuff up and returned well before 4:00am. Perhaps that might even leave enough time for a local drug pick-up, as well.

Do you have a link to Pak's timeline that you are referencing? I'm curious to see how the times on there match the call records and depositions.
 

DrQ

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The LISK podcast is good. So are the documentaries. IMHO SG was not a LISK victim. There were enough weird characters at Oak Beach to have been involved. I always found it odd and interesting that some of the people moved away. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the Dr and the "customer" both moved. There are so many moving parts to this case. It is either like a set of dominos falling or looking for a single thread of yarn in a yarn ball. There were unusual events happening which may or may not have connections. Even though LE ruled out a connection, it was an odd coincidence for the landscaping owner committing suicide the day SG was found. He also had been visited by LE because of burlap bags. No connection was ever made on the bags or him. That is a link for SG and another for GB4.
 

jollypup

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The only reason I buy the store excuse is because we see an outgoing call to CVS from SG's cell phone at 2:55am. The call lasted 1 minute. The call was made specifically to the 24-Hour West Islip CVS - which is about a 14 minute drive from Brewer's house. At that time of night (and Pak did mention in his deposition that Brewer was going fast) he probably could have made it in half that time. In Brewer's deposition, though, he states that he did not go into the West Islip CVS with Shannan, but does make mention that he may have gone to the Shell station, instead. Unfortunately, we don't get much else from him because he them pleads the 5th for pretty much every follow-up question. The Shell station is only 9 minutes from his house (probably 5 mins each way, if speeding).

Being that this was 2010, I can imagine Shannan calling CVS to inquire if they are actually open. Since JB mentions he goes to that Shell station all the time, and it is slightly closer, perhaps plans changed and they opted to go to the Shell Station instead. SG is still on the clock, during this, after all.

In Pak's deposition, he mentions that he doesn't recall them returning, and that the next thing he remembers is Shannan calling him around 4:00am to extend another hour. We see a 1 minute call to Pak from SG at 4:09am - but they were already back in the house by then.

That leaves roughly an hour of unaccounted time when SG and JB could have quickly drove over to Shell or CVS, picked stuff up and returned well before 4:00am. Perhaps that might even leave enough time for a local drug pick-up, as well.

Do you have a link to Pak's timeline that you are referencing? I'm curious to see how the times on there match the call records and depositions.
Incredile insight. I do not have a link, as truthfully the only time I have heard pak talk is in the LISK podcast; although they do reference specific cell phone records (has he talked elsewhere besides the deposition?) Unfortunately I think we both agree that unless someone comes forward we will never know what took place during that period of time. You would think in 2010 shell and CVS stores would have cameras that could clear all of this up.
 

jollypup

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The LISK podcast is good. So are the documentaries. IMHO SG was not a LISK victim. There were enough weird characters at Oak Beach to have been involved. I always found it odd and interesting that some of the people moved away. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the Dr and the "customer" both moved. There are so many moving parts to this case. It is either like a set of dominos falling or looking for a single thread of yarn in a yarn ball. There were unusual events happening which may or may not have connections. Even though LE ruled out a connection, it was an odd coincidence for the landscaping owner committing suicide the day SG was found. He also had been visited by LE because of burlap bags. No connection was ever made on the bags or him. That is a link for SG and another for GB4.
Which documentaries did you feel did a good job? What other evidence do you have that Bissett was connected? Follow the evidence.
 

WINDSOR

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Jollypup stated " In addition, with the release of the 911 calls, I honestly believe Pak is innocent."

Innocent of what? Interstate travel for Prostitution? Living off the proceeds of Prostitution? Abandoning Shannan at Oak Beach, to avoid contact with Law Enforcement? Not being completely open and honest about all the activities and interactions that night?
 

jollypup

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Jollypup stated " In addition, with the release of the 911 calls, I honestly believe Pak is innocent."

Innocent of what? Interstate travel for Prostitution? Living off the proceeds of Prostitution? Abandoning Shannan at Oak Beach, to avoid contact with Law Enforcement? Not being completely open and honest about all the activities and interactions that night?
murder.
 

WINDSOR

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He could easily be guilty of Felony Murder.

Felony murder is a legal rule that expands the definition of murder. It applies when someone commits a certain kind of felony and someone else dies in the course of it. It doesn't matter whether the death was intentional or accidental—the defendant is liable for it.
 

Interested person

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Around 6:19 Shannan says ‘’no stop it please‘’ and a man answers back “okay, fine fine.” Can somebody explain what could have been happening there ?
 

Interested person

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Around 6:19 Shannan says ‘’no stop it please‘’ and a man answers back “okay, fine fine.” Can somebody explain what could have been happening there ?
In my opinion there has to be something he is doing that is making her feel uncomfortable and scared. Furthermore he must be aware of his negative impact on her psyche because he replies ‘’ok, fine fine’’.
 

SecretAgentMan

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He could easily be guilty of Felony Murder.

Felony murder is a legal rule that expands the definition of murder. It applies when someone commits a certain kind of felony and someone else dies in the course of it. It doesn't matter whether the death was intentional or accidental—the defendant is liable for it.


Its gotta be proven in a court of law without reasonable doubt.....easier said than than done.
Around 6:19 Shannan says ‘’no stop it please‘’ and a man answers back “okay, fine fine.” Can somebody explain what could have been happening there ?


It could be Pak or Brewer trying to escort her out of the house......she was asked multiple times to leave the house but wouldnt.....also, she sounds intoxicated on something.

Imo, no crime is being committed on the 911 tape from what ive heard.
 

White_Rabbit

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We have a pretty good idea of what happened to Shannan that morning, and who is responsible, but as SecretAgentMan says, “Its gotta be proven in a court of law without reasonable doubt.....easier said than than done.”

Maybe Peter Hackett feels remorse, but he has too much to lose right now by admitting he had interaction with both Shannan and “innocent” Michael Pak that morning.

Prisoner’s Dilemma

What set of circumstances can cause Peter Hackett or Michael Pak to be compromised into betraying one another?
 

White_Rabbit

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If the civil suit goes to trial, which based on the preponderance of the evidence it should, perhaps John Ray could offer Peter Hackett a settlement that would make it beneficial for him to state the truth about his interactions with Michael Pak.
 

Bose

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We have a pretty good idea of what happened to Shannan that morning, and who is responsible, but as SecretAgentMan says, “Its gotta be proven in a court of law without reasonable doubt.....easier said than than done.”

Maybe Peter Hackett feels remorse, but he has too much to lose right now by admitting he had interaction with both Shannan and “innocent” Michael Pak that morning.

Prisoner’s Dilemma

What set of circumstances can cause Peter Hackett or Michael Pak to be compromised into betraying one another?

I think, if I remember correctly, burden of proof is different in criminal and civil cases (?) I don't know what would be required, or if it is possible, to reopen a criminal case with Shannan. Perhaps CPH and Pak would then be a part of that. I don't know what is necessary for that, but I am sure any attorney working on the case would want to reopen criminal, if possible.

I'll need to read up more on the link you posted, I'm not familiar with it, personally.

I don't think, gut feelings only here, that CPH or MP would betray one another in the classic sense. If they were at the same place at the same time witnessing each others's behaviors, that might work. However, if they both contributed toward her death, at different times, while not in the presence of each other, they would only be trying to save their own hide. MP = due to possible contribution to Shannan's death, and crossing state lines; CPH = negligence in the very least.

I think better chance of AD and Pak throwing each other under the bus, so to speak; and CPH and his wife being at odds, if that's what it came down to, IMO.
 
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