Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert #2

da fino

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colletti told varying and inconsistent accounts of his interaction with shannan/pak that morning. as afar as i can recall none of them included him letting her in the door.
 

Sleuth_Noob

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I agree, I do not believe Shannan was in Coletti's home.
Yes, he has offered varying accounts (at the doorway, spoke w. her w. door open etc.). But what is known is that he called 911 emergency in response to her plea for help.
 

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I have not been here in a long time. I was not paying attention when the 911 tape was released. Not gonna lie: I know it's a bit rude to comment before reading all the others.

But I am furious! How can the police characterize Shannan's behavior as anything other than coherent in that phone call? Her reaction time and coordination sounded impaired. Her decision making sounded in tact.

It seems to me that that tape answered some questions, starting with "Could Shannan have been in an irrational state?" Answer: she was not.

She was criticized for not answering the 911 dispatchers questions. This is not a poor decision. 1) The dispatchers were not about to hurt or kill her, or deliver her to someone who would. There was a lot of cross talk, and focusing on your imminent and present murderers, and prioritizing responding to them is very rational. 2) She made it clear that she did not know where she was- asking her repeatedly made responding even less if a priority.

I think Shannan gave us her evaluation of the situation in that call. Brewer and Pak were helping someone murder her or severely hurt her, but she was safer in Brewers house atm. Calling 911 reduced the odds they just jumped her and brought her to what she seemed to fear was murder but hope was just some punishment short of death. This, because she repeatedly asked why, and repeatedly asserted she hadn't done anything. That sounds like she was assuming she was being punished for something.

She thought so clearly through this. Note that her tone is begging and submissive with Brewer and Pak, and business like with 911. This again is because she was trying to convey info to 911 and beg for her life with Brewer and Pak. But- and the police take this as incoherence- she does not answer any questions such as Mike's last name- that will increase the severity of "punishment." She did not hand the phone to Mike as requested because that would be the end of her excellent decision to call 911 but not "snitch." The phone would be gone, the "men" would stop needing to act calm and non-murderous, and they could jump her.

It is also likely she mentioned that they were coming after her when the "men" could not hear her words to 911.

Finally, Shannan told Pak her set her up for this, and he basically confirmed it by denying a detail which is not in every scenario he could have used to do so: He said he had never met Brewer. Nobody asked, Dude.

I imagine my reactions are not unique. But I couldn't wait to read through this thread. Grrrrr. How did the police dare to characterize the tapes as they did?

Thanks for "listening." I will return the favor when I calm down.

MOO.

-Ruminations
 

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I have not seen much discussion regarding Shannan's 911 call and the fact that she kept asking them why they were using her real name. Although I don't know what it would be, I keep thinking this is a tell-tale sign of some sort. Maybe I am reading too much into it. That just stands out to me that she must have thought she was in trouble for her real name to be used.

Also, this is just my opinion, but I think Peter Hackett gave her a sedative or something at Joseph Brewer's request. Either she was taken to his house or he was summoned to Brewer's. I think whatever she was given is what created her panic and fear. Perhaps she reacted to it in a hyper-mania sort of way. Sometimes sedatives and medications can have a hyper effect before the sedation set in. Either he didn't realize when he contacted Mari Gilbert what had happened to Shannan or he was covering his butt. Again this is just my own speculation.
I agree that Shannan was acting like someone "in trouble." But she did not or claimed to not know why. She seemed to behave like a rational person who is about to be maimed or murdered in retribution for an action of hers, and that Pak set it up [possibly for someone else].
 

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I had thought the release of the 911 call was going to be some 'tipping point' in this case. It appears that I am wrong. The three men listed appear to have their lives complete and unhindered.
I felt like the 911 call, which I heard first today, eliminated the possibility that Shannan freaked out. Am I reading too much into it? And why did the police present it as more evidence that this was at Rajiv accident when it was the opposite? And, if it did support tragic accident, why the crazy delay in its release?
 

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I saw a few more references to Brewer and his possible involvement in a conspiracy to hurt Shanann. That's the one guy in this scenario who I don't really have any suspicion cast on for several reasons:
  1. There is no credible evidence to suggest that he and Pak or he and Shanann knew each other in any capacity before this event. So to get there, you have to believe that Brewer and Pak concocted a plan to hurt or kill Shanann in the short time she was at Brewer's residence - much of which was spent with Shanann entertaining Brewer and guests.
  2. Brewer is heard multiple times on the call telling Pak to get Shanann to leave and he was "going upstairs" which I presume to mean to bed. Brewer even tries to coerce Shannan out of his home and to step outside which again I believe so he can shut and lock the door and get rid of her.
  3. No sightings of Brewer at any point past when Shanann ran from his home during the 911 call. There are multiple sightings of Pak's SUV casing the neighborhood for her. This tells me he stayed in his home.
  4. Gus Colletti specifically stated that Pak was alone in his SUV when they encountered each other as Pak drove by.
  5. Shanann was refusing to leave Brewer's home with Pak. On the 911 call, she repeatedly refuses to go with Pak and would rather stay inside Brewer's home. It's clear that it's Pak she fears, not Brewer.
There are other minor reasons but those are the big ones. #1 alone to me is enough to pretty much clear him. If Pak & Brewer didn't know each other, you have to believe that Pak brought Shanann to Brewer's home, then clued him in on 'hey I'm going to hurt this girl, need your help bro' and Brewer just went along with it. Just makes no sense.

In the end, I think Brewer himself was just a lonely middle-aged guy who had some money and paid for sex/sexual entertainment from younger women. Without knowing who else was at the party with Brewer/Pak/Shanann, it's impossible to determine if another male was there and said or did something to Shanann that gave her this fear.

But around the time Shanann called 911, I think Brewer had gotten to the point where the party was over, it was almost 5AM and he wanted to go to bed. She wouldn't leave or go outside so he called Pak and basically told him hey you brought her here, you get her to leave. She wouldn't and was acting very strange so Brewer finally decided screw it, I'm going to bed, this guy (Pak) needs to take care of it.
I think that Pak's denial of meeting Brewer ahead of Shannan's 911 call is evidence that he did "meet" him, although possible by phone and possibly only hours before Shannan's death. Shannan didn't accuse Oak of previously knowing Brewer but Pak volunteered a denial. Very Sus.
 

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I don’t believe that a civil case can move forward if it is part of an active investigation. I don’t believe that SCPD ever went on record declaring that Shannan Gilbert death investigation was NOT part of the larger LISK investigation (the active case).
Come on. They can't have it both ways. It's a murder investigation or it isn't.
 

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It’s definitely possible that she saw or heard something that spooked her…anything is possible, really. The 911 recordings clearly illustrate that her mental state was not entirely sound. At times she sounds anxious and scared, other times incoherent. She repeats certain phrases over and over, but they are vague and ambiguous. She is also at times completely unresponsive to 911 operators very basic questions…
But that being said, it is the search for SG that ultimately leads to the discovery of all of the victims’ bodies. That’s no coincidence IMO. SG’s case is related to the others in that regard.
I don't agree. She is coherent enough to "code switch" when talking to 911 operators with professionalism or imminent murderers with submission. She slurs a bit- but she seems to make sound decisions. Including calling 911 but not "snitching."
 

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I think that Pak's denial of meeting Brewer ahead of Shannan's 911 call is evidence that he did "meet" him, although possible by phone and possibly only hours before Shannan's death. Shannan didn't accuse Oak of previously knowing Brewer but Pak volunteered a denial. Very Sus.
Pak never denied meeting Brewer. His story, and Brewer’s story about what happened that night, have been consistent. I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about.
 

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I don't agree. She is coherent enough to "code switch" when talking to 911 operators with professionalism or imminent murderers with submission. She slurs a bit- but she seems to make sound decisions. Including calling 911 but not "snitching."
If your theory is correct, why didn’t she answer just blurt out the whole scenario to the dispatcher (who she was still on phone w.) once she was free of the house? Sorry, your theory makes no sense. Go back and listen to the 911 call.
 

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Pak never denied meeting Brewer. His story, and Brewer’s story about what happened that night, have been consistent. I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about.

He denied it to Shannan on the 911 call- without being asked about it.

First Shannan accused him of setting her up, and he laughed it off without answering. Note: She did not accuse him of knowing Brewer- just setting her up for something terrible- probably murder.

Then Shannan repeated the accusation again with no specifics for how he did it. Then Pak said he just met him [Brewer] now.

How would Pak know what Shannan meant by setting her up? At the beginning of the 911 call, Shannan obviously felt safer inside Brewers home. Why would Pak's mind jump to assuming the set up was a collaboration with Brewer? He wouldn't. He confessed to her.

Listen to the call, or read a transcript.
 

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If your theory is correct, why didn’t she answer just blurt out the whole scenario to the dispatcher (who she was still on phone w.) once she was free of the house? Sorry, your theory makes no sense. Go back and listen to the 911 call.

Free of the house? There is no evidence she ever fully escaped. And she assumed (and again Pak implicitly confirmed) that she had done something to deserve a punishment- possibly murder. She really did the smartest thing a person could do in the situation- set it up so that the murderers could narc themselves out, but did not do so herself.

Are there any posters here that have knowledge of the sex work world? What happens to a call girl if she IDs a pimp or a John? If she had survived the night but got some others busted, how many more nights would she survive?

MOO- Ruminations

With a clear-minded theory. Indeed, as clear minded as Shannan.
 

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Well, I do this for a living and I am around 85-95% positive she wasn't manic or psychotic just based on the 911 tape. This does not sound like a young woman in a mental health crisis. This sounds like a young woman who is frightened and possibly drugged.

Do we know if she was drugged? It's clear she felt her life was in danger. A decent man would leave a woman alone, as she requested, when he realizes he's scaring her. She asks them to stop multiple times and her pleas fall on deaf ears and he escalates the situation, further agitating her.

I struggle to find even one confirmable example of irrational behavior.
 

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Well, I do this for a living and I am around 85-95% positive she wasn't manic or psychotic just based on the 911 tape. This does not sound like a young woman in a mental health crisis. This sounds like a young woman who is frightened and possibly drugged.

Do we know if she was drugged? It's clear she felt her life was in danger. A decent man would leave a woman alone, as she requested, when he realizes he's scaring her. She asks them to stop multiple times and her pleas fall on deaf ears and he escalates the situation, further agitating her.

I struggle to find even one confirmable example of irrational behavior.
Shannan had stopped taking her medication because it made her feel "shakey". She was clearly not in the right frame of mind. One minute, she believes that Brewer is out to get her, the next minute she is refusing to leave his house. Anyone who listens to that 911 tape and thinks that she was thinking clearly should just hand their websleuth badge in.

I think she was afraid of what Brewer would do or help do outside. She felt she was safest in the house and with 911 on the line so they can't force her out without arousing suspicion.
 

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Pak is lying about calling Shannon after he spoke to Gus ...I posted Shannon's phone records on page 82 of the previous Shannon Gilbert thread... There is no record of an incoming call from Pak after Shannon called 911...Also when Gus was interviewed he states that he had called 911 before he left his house to confront Pak out on the road.......I believe Pak would not have stuck around at all after he realized Gus had called the cops because unlike Shannon Gus knew exactly where he was,he wasn't a sex worker and Pak knew the cops would be on the way....Id love to see Paks phone records for that night to see if he called Brewer to let him know he had lost Shannon.. Also why wouldn't Pak call Diaz right away to let him know he had lost track of Shannon that night?

QUOTE=fred&edna;13135804]It was good to see this video again. I'd forgotten that Pak stated he thought SG was "setting him up". (What would she have to gain by setting him up???)

Also, here's a partial transcript (my effort... feel free to correct any mistakes!)

Narrator: At 2 am on May 1, 2010 Shannan and Pak were on Long Island in the gated community of Oak Beach.

Shannan had been with the client, Joseph Brewer, for about 3 hours when he called Pak into the house.

Pak: She freaked out and said you guy are trying to kill me. She went behind the couch, crouched down. And so I went there and I looked at her and I said you know Shannan what are you doing? And, you know, I was trying to think is she really messed up on drugs? So I tried to test her by asking her have you seen the movie Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas? And she said yes. So, I thought oh ok, so she is coherent then. Shes just acting. And then you know I heard like a 911 operator, a lady on her phone, and thats when I realize oh shes on the phone with 911. So I thought, oh shes trying to set me up. Shes saying, you know, you guys are trying to kill me. She wants me to leave. So I left.

Narrator: The driver was back in his car when he says he saw Shannan running from the house, and started to follow her.

Pak: I turned on the lights and everything. I drove slowly. And I said Shannan where are you, Shannan. Cause there were like high bushes.

GC: You could see a car coming and it was stopping and going, stopping and going. I ran down off the deck and I met him over there and I stopped his car.

Pak: He said he was going to call the cops and I said you dont have to do that.

GC: At that point she bolted out and ran down that road that way

GC: He took off after her and thats the last I saw of her.

Pak: I couldnt find her. I called her name. And, then I called her on her phone and I say Shannan where are you. I couldnt find her and thats it.

Narrator: Thats the last time Shannan was seen alive. Police questioned the client, Joseph Brewer, and Michael Pak. Neither was named as a suspect in her disappearance.

Video of Dormer making announcement to press saying the homicide task force decided to come back to search for Shannan Gilbert.

Narrator: 19 months after Shannan disappeared the police surprised everyone by returning to OB to search it again. They found her bag, her jeans and her shoes in two days. The day after that they found her phone. Eight days later, a quarter of a mile away, they made another discovery...

* Video of Dormer making announcement to press about having found skeletal remains believed to be Shannan Gilbert.
[/QUOTE]


I had forgotten that Pak claimed he thought that Shannan was trying to set him up when he realized she called 911. Interesting that he did not testify that she said the same about him, twice.

If he really thought that, wouldn't his behavior be less of a condescending gaslighting of, come on, let's go outside together- while calling her crazy and hungover with a snicker?

If he thought that, why wouldn't he say so out loud for 911 to hear? He could continue the same tone, but say something like, "okay. You're on the phone with the police, and NOW you think someone is after you? - ha ha ha." Or, "Ha ha, you always think someone is after you when you're hungover."

Pak did not make statements like a man who thought he was being set up. He made statements like a man who wanted to discredit Shannan's credibility about his being part of her being in danger.

It is also interesting that in his testimony, Pak claimed to check her for coherence, and she passed per his testimony. Yet his actual comments in the background of the 911 call seem to be attempts to discredit her coherence, while she was actually responding rationally to danger.

-MOO Ruminations
 
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WINDSOR

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Ruminations,
Lots of good stuff.
Seems to me at least, you are coming to the similar conclusions many of us also have. Shannan was a targeted victim and Pak and Brewer were colluding together in some way.

After all these years, the total disregard by the SCPD towards both Brewer and Pak as suspects is shocking. Early on the SCPD interviewed Pak and Brewer and 'cleared' them. In my opinion the only way these two men were cleared was to protect persons or persons the SCPD wanted to protect.
 

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Ruminations,
Lots of good stuff.
Seems to me at least, you are coming to the similar conclusions many of us also have. Shannan was a targeted victim and Pak and Brewer were colluding together in some way.

After all these years, the total disregard by the SCPD towards both Brewer and Pak as suspects is shocking. Early on the SCPD interviewed Pak and Brewer and 'cleared' them. In my opinion the only way these two men were cleared was to protect persons or persons the SCPD wanted to protect.


Yes- my emotions upon hearing the 911 call were primarily about the awful treatment to Shannan (apart from murder) in suggesting that she was behaving irrationally that evening. Her actions and statements show clear reasoning; I can't think of an action that does not have an easy explanation.

When others in this thread have suggested actions or words did not make sense, they made sense to me.

I think the police letter to the editor- the one by a writer claiming to have heard the 911 call- may have had a twisted "technically true" lie: Shannan did not seem to think she would be murdered or hurt in the house. She seemed to think she would be hurt when she left the house.

To me, the 911 call makes it very clear that something more nefarious than sex trafficking occurred that night, and that is why the delay in its release and the spin that Shannan was causing some "misadventure" or the victim of some "tragic accident" caused by no one in particular.

Even if her death were an accident, and I doubt that highly, it was an accident caused by others proven to break the law (trafficking by Pak, paying for sex by Brewer) and suspected of breaking substance distribution and consumption laws (the same "men" and several others). If it was an accident, I believe it was caused because people were trying to murder her and she died some way other than by the plan. In any case, any of those accident scenarios is also a kind of homicide. Very different from a passive-voiced tragedy.

I agree she seemed to be the targeted victim of murder, and I've believed that for years. I have believed for years that there is a cover up- of which I believe Hawkshaw understands far more deeply than I. Now that I've heard the 911 call, I am more certain than ever.

MOO

Ruminations

Added thought: I do not believe she ran into the marsh alone and died of hypothermia, either. If she ran that way, someone was right behind her.
 
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Sleuth_Noob

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I’m still very confused on what your theory here is. I really am just trying to understand your basic theory based on the 911 call…

So your theory is that Pak and Brewer conspired together—before Shannan ever even knew that she would be going on a ‘date’ to long island—to get her to go to Brewer’s so that Brewer and Pak would be able to…what??
 

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I’m still very confused on what your theory here is. I really am just trying to understand your basic theory based on the 911 call…

So your theory is that Pak and Brewer conspired together—before Shannan ever even knew that she would be going on a ‘date’ to long island—to get her to go to Brewer’s so that Brewer and Pak would be able to…what??
We do not know what Brewer's and Pak's intentions were. I believe it was not something positive.
The only people 100% sure of what their intentions were, are not talking.

What we do know for sure
1) Pak arranged the date directly with Brewer. (not the usual behavior for Pak & Shannan)
2) Oak Beach was hours away from Shannan and Pak's usual area of work. (not the usual behavior for Pak & Shannan)
3) Shannan called 911. (not the usual behavior for Shannan)
4) Shannan was very afraid of Pak and ran away from him. (not the usual behavior for Shannan)
5) Shannan ended up dead. (not the usual behavior for Shannan)
6) Pak left Oak beach prior to LE arriving. (Pak stated he had been searching for Shannan.)
 
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