Possibly related cases (GB4, Manorville, Bittrolff victims, & others)

Discussion in 'Long Island Serial Killer' started by Theforeigner, Jan 13, 2012.

  1. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    The reason is simple. Because we looked at the wrong grid all the time. Only when I said that last year and tried to point some attention to NYC, it was hard because everybody was so sure, it had to be an Oak Beach resident (a claim for which we have not one bit of evidence still)
    As already Thomas Harris pointed out: Coveting starts with seeing. So find the area where he saw them. Craigslist was nothing but a method to look up, to find out more. This guy is a stalker type personality. He isn't one of the johns on the victims cell phone or in the email inboxes. LE found some of those johns, especially last johns. Remember this cop? What was he? NYPD? NY State? Doesn't matter. Since LE was able to connect to different last johns for different girls, the whole homicidal john on craigslist is off the table. So we KNOW, we have to look for someone, who snatched those women AFTER they finished with their last john. And that is a total another grid.

    Peter
     


  2. Theforeigner

    Theforeigner Well-Known Member

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    I belive the GB4 SK is a cyber stalker.
    And I belive that when he is on his cyber hunt/stalking he use:
    a proxy server
    a “throw-away” phone
    etc...
     
  3. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    Oh for sure, he also uses cyberstalking, but in the end at least, he has to go physical. He has to be physically there when they leave the john to fetch them afterwards.

    Peter
     
  4. Theforeigner

    Theforeigner Well-Known Member

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    Read up the last hours of Amber Castello, and Megan Waterman, then you will know if the GB4 was a "John" or not.

    I´m NOT saying that he was necessarily a TRUE "John" when he finaly contacted the 4GB victims, BUT I have NO doubt, whatsoever, that he posed as a "John" in his final contact with the 4GB victims.
     
  5. Theforeigner

    Theforeigner Well-Known Member

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    And IMHO, when the GB4 SK, is not cyber hunting/stalking and killing etc, he is, in plain sight, participating online on several different websites, "researching" and posting about the GB4 case, as well as the AC4 case.
     
  6. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    I read them up a thousand times. And what is the result? That you have two cases in which the last john wasn't identified and two in which he was (one caused a little bit of uproar since it was a cop). The john-theory goes to pieces the moment, you can't connect the last busines of those ladies anymore to ONE person. Which is pretty hard if it is already connected in two of the cases to DIFFERENT persons.

    Peter
     
  7. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    Oh, he would surely care for his own murders. He would do anything to make it look like the killer is a john living at Oak Beach. But then, so would Manorville too. However, how you construct an interest of the killer in the AC murders remains to me a little foggy right now.

    Peter
     
  8. Sillybilly

    Sillybilly Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    <rsbm>

    What you say makes absolute sense to me Peter. However, when we look at the fact that they "disappeared AFTER the last John", I guess we can say that would be after their last KNOWN John. Somehow these girls all hooked up with the same killer after their last known scheduled encounters with different johns.

    Could the girls have made arrangements somehow, other than through Craigslist, to hook up with their next client? Maureen having been robbed always sticks in my mind ... Could she have decided to just turn a street trick to get some quick cash? Can we find any reasons that the other girls may have decided to do the same thing. Do we know that none of these girls ever met with a john that they did NOT meet through Craigslist?
     
  9. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    Well, you could always construct a hypothetical john after the last one and after that one is dismissed another one. But for each, you would have to ask the following questions:

    - how did he find them?
    - how did he make them take on another client after the last one scheduled?
    - where did he bring them?
    - and how?

    See, our problem is not to construct a homicidal male popping out of the nothing, our problem is to figure out, how he knew where they were and be prepared to strike. If you look at Maureen Brainard-Barnes, she told friends on the phone all she wanted, was going home. Bit since she robbed, you can argue, she has pulled another trick. The problem is, she could have done so only in the red light areas of Manhattan. That means a random John. Normally, she worked strict hotel incall, but maybe, because she was robbed, this night, things were different. And maybe that brought her in the wrong location at the wrong time.
    But the story goes on. Melissa Barthelmy leaves for a short term scheduled client. Given the time, she left, it was late when she was finished with him. And she just finished with a client who paid far more than usual (allegedly $1500). Plus, didn't she deposit another $900 earlier that day. So she had no pressure to go to any street corner to quickly pick up one more.
    And the story goes on. Megan Waterman leaves the motel in Hauppauge in the middle of the night. So, no chance, she would come back at a time, she could have any hopes to pick up another non-scheduled client. In fact, she couldn't, she left her cell behind. So how would this client have contacted her? By telepathy? Not likely!
    And then there is the last one, Amber Costello. Again, she went out to a client who offered more than usual money. Also Costello did normally only incalls, so this indicates, she new this john, which means, he has been in her phone records a number of times before. And this was late night action, so she finished there late. She had a lot of money on her. Why should she go for a non-scheduled john on the street corner now? And again the same question: How did he contact her if she hadn't a cell phone?
    What those women met, after they left from her last clients, that wasn't someone posing as john. That was a hunter, a stalker, a blitz-attacker. For a very simple reason. Since at least three of them weren't in a position to need or even want a $50 quicky, chances were, he couldn't get them in a car with that trick. He had to know that. So he had to park his car somewhere near, blitz-attack them with the element of surprise on his side, pack them in his vehicle and off he went.

    They probably met a lot of johns via other means than Craigslist. Or at least one of them did: Megan Waterman. She offered a service quite different than the other three. Female domination. Means, her usual clients liked to be dominated by her. Which in itself is an entirely different clientele than the other three had. However, due to the specific nature of this clientele, things in the BDSM world are a little more hush, a little more word of mouth advertisement is needed. So chances are, she had also contact to the private club scene in Manhattan. But that is exactly the problem. The killer chose her. So what is he? A Masochist? Obviously not. So why and how would he go in and out in the SM scene and the special niche of female domination? Not at all! So, the sex-cultural environment is different, but the physical environment is the same. The clubs are mostly Hell's kitchen and up to Times Square and it's side streets. So is 46th Street, where Maureen Brainard-Barnes rented a hotel room. And the bus terminal is not far away either. That leaves us with Amber Lynn Costello and Melissa Barthelmy. Now, Barthelmy lived usually in her boyfriend's apartment in the Bronx. But did she call in the johns to that place? Always? Because if not, the place to rent a hotel room for some hours would have been once more around 45th and 46th Street in Manhattan.
    And Amber Lynn Costello? She lived in Long Island, but make an experiment: Enter her Babylon place and then get directions in Google first to Manhattan, then to Oak Beach. Manhattan is the shorter travel time. So part of her business was certainly in NYC and the hotspot there is again Manhattan between Hell's Kitchen and the Port Authority. So chances are, that area is LISKs primary hunting ground. There it is where he sees them first, chooses them, and starts to stalk. We know, he feels pretty comfortable around there. At least two of the phone calls to Melissa's sister came out of exactly that area. Times Square and Madison Square Garden, if I remember right. Which is btw another reason, I don't buy the "drunk white dude" show. A man with a cell phone on his ear is in those places so common, there is no chance to pick him out of the crowd. A drunk guy stumbling around there, that'S another problem. Because he would drag attention. Times Square and Madison Square Garden are both places with relative high police presence at all times. You may remember the thing with that SUV and the propane bottles, that should explain it.
    And once more, keep in mind, that Amber Costello and Megan Waterman had no way to make out with another client anyway - they both had left their phones behind. Nobody could call them, they could nobody call. So, making out? No way!

    Peter
     
  10. Samantha Spade

    Samantha Spade New Member

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    Peter Brendt posted, "The more if the person also plays drunk.
    So, there is only one reason to play "white and drunk" on the phone. And that is, if the caller is in fact black and sober."


    Mr. Brendt, That made me think of something that I did many years ago. I'll tell you a little story. Of course my stories aren't anywhere as near as interesting as yours and Hawk's are, but I think this one definitely applies to your - Black guy pretending he was a white, drunk guy theory.

    Years back, a friend of a friend asked me to help her find out if her husband was cheating on her. They lived in North Carolina and I in New Jersey. I didn't want to schlep all the way down there. She couldn't afford to pay for my expenses, and I was certainly in no position to do it for free. But I had an idea. At the time I even thought to myself how absurd this idea was, but I could tell that she was in such emotional pain from this guy playing head games with her. The typical BS: "you're crazy, you need help, you're paranoid", "What? You don't trust me?" Totally playing with her head where she actually thought she was going insane.

    Anyway, I told her to call me when he was at work, then we would make a 3 way call to him. I asked her if she had any idea who the woman was she thought he was cheating on her with. She said, "Sue-Ann." Note: not the real name.

    Now as I am about to speak to this man I'm thinking, there is NO WAY this is going to work, but I had to do something.

    He answers the phone. I then started with my southern drawl, but because I knew he would be able to tell it wasn't Sue-Ann's voice, I pretended to cry hysterically, and belted out between fake sobs:

    "Why did you tell yuuur wiiiife?"

    I couldn't believe what I was hearing. He then said, (unknowingly with his wife on the other line hearing every word.)

    "I didn't tell her Sue-Ann! I swear I didn't tell her! She must have seen us or someone else told her!"

    I almost dropped the phone. It worked.
    Any doubt he may have had by the New Jersey girl pretending to be a southerner accent was dismissed in his mind by my hysterical crying act.

    Okay, that's it for my stories.
     
  11. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    Nicely played! And it proves, people often see and hear only, what they expect to see and hear. Which is probably the reason there are still people thinking, LISK lives in Oak Beach ... because they expect it.

    Peter
     
  12. alaskanblue

    alaskanblue Member

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    Wow...I'd forgotten about that comment! (read the book about 20 years ago) How odd and eerie that Danny Rolling would choose that very town later on.

    PS--interesting that your trick worked on your friend's husband! The hysterical crying masked any difference your accent may have had with "Sue-Ann's".
     
  13. alaskanblue

    alaskanblue Member

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    "And then, somewhere between midnight and 3 am, depending how many he has already stashed away there he wants to revisit, he will add her to his trophy collection. He will feels the wind from the sea, he will hear the surf, like a little voice from the universe itself. He will smell the familiar smells from his youth, but with the difference, back then ha was a little black boy, now he is, in his mind, the invincible master, who teaches the lessons. Which is the reason, he probably started his new trophy yards so near to the sites, the GB4 were found ... he knows, LE considers that area as searched, that they won't return to take them again from him.

    So well, that is my opinion, what is about to happen."

    -Peter Brendt

    I think you're really onto something here Peter with the LISK started to re-do his trophy cluster so close to the original Gilgo site, it'd be the ultimate slap in the face for the Suffolk PD. Except they'll probably never discover it, even if somebody mentions it to them in a tip. I also think your idea of him feeling the wind from the sea, smelling the salt air and hearing the surf is very compelling to him. He's strongly drawn to it much like you mentioned in another post about the wind through the trees for Bundy.
     
  14. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    Danny Rolling was mainly a home invader. Different kind of animal than regular dumper. Not all, only some of them feel better with water. The trick is to recognize the regular customers.

    Peter
     
  15. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    Ypou know, what my mistake in all of this was? I should have started with profiling Dormer and Spota. I mean, they are LISK's most valuable assets, so it would be maybe good to know how they tick.
    But then, what makes me think, they tick in ANY way ...

    Peter
     
  16. ScorpiosDaughter

    ScorpiosDaughter New Member

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    In regards to the victims leaving their cell phones at home and agreeing to meet their date without that cell phone protection - is it a possibility that the killer gave these victims their own personal cell phone to communicate - or maybe that was the ploy used, to get them to leave home w/out their phones - that the suspect would give the girls their own cell phone he provided - I wonder if that's a possibility - he could have provided them, or promised to provide them with their own "special cell phone" to be used to communicate exclusively with him?

    Just a thought...
     
  17. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    First, they wouldn't have gone to him without cell phone if they didn't know him. Whereas "him" probably refers to different persons anyway.
    Second, since the last johns were different persons, this wouldn't work. Because you would suddenly look for several johns supplying cells.

    Peter
     
  18. ScorpiosDaughter

    ScorpiosDaughter New Member

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    I think it's pretty much agreed that these victims had prior contact with the suspect, otherwise they would have NOT gone to meet someone without a cell phone for protection. I think the possibility that he procured a rapport with these women before the attacks is strong - so given that scenario, I think it's plausible that he overcame their fear of meeting without their phone protection - that he supplied, or promised to supply a "special phone" just for use with his calls. The suspect is obviously somewhat technology savvy - how better to hide your mode of communication than to "gift" the victims with their own phone - covers multiple bases - how he communicated with them without a trace of phone logs, and how the boyfriends/pimps haven't been able to really help the investigation...this phone possibility would also play in well with the large amounts of money this suspect was offering the victims - how better than cut out the middle man - I think it's a possibility.
     
  19. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    Nope, it isn't agreed that the johns were suspects at all after it became clear there were different ones. Or at least, I don't agree to that for reasons of the absolute impossibility.

    Since at least two different johns were found as alst johns in two out of four cases, the whole idea of a homicidal john is impossible to hold. Therefore, there is also no single john/SK giving out cell phones. Aside of the fact, that this would indicate, he never actually gave out cell phones but killed them instead of that occasion because we know for example from Amber Costello's roommate, that the john called her on her cell phone, not on any new obscure cell phone out of the blue.

    Victim A - John A
    Victim B - John B
    Victim C - John ???
    Victim D - John ???

    Since A != B and none of the unknown johns can be A and B at the same time, it is mathematically impossible to have one john spreading cell phones, none of the boyfriends/pimps ever saw before. Sorry, simply absolute impossible.

    Peter
     
  20. truthspider

    truthspider New Member

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    There is no known data that indicates the perp had prior contact with his victims.
     

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