Discussion in 'Lisa Irwin' started by Tristan, Oct 18, 2011.
Could it be possible that the mom put Lisa in the tub for a bath, filled it up, kept drinking, and forgot/blacked out, didn't check on her... and the baby drowned??.....
I believe it is possible that a 11 month baby, is learning to walk, and could have stood up in the tub, fallen, and drowned,...if...no one was watching her...
Sounds like the kids were watching movies and perhaps not aware..she was in the tub...
...Or...mom gave her some type of cold medicine (too much)...then put her in the tub...and she died there...or....put her to bed...after giving her the cold medicine...and she died there..
I lean towards the baby died in the house...not outside...not believing the kidnapper story...not sure yet if the dad is involved..but he looks downward a lot..and fairly quiet for a father whose daughter was "snatched"...All in my own opinion..
Yes, this is my feeling too - accidental drowning caused by drunken neglect. Alternately it could have been any sort of 'drunken' issue - a fit of violence, accident, medication ..... anything that would render DB culpable and possibly cause her grief. I think DB then put Lisa on the floor of her bedroom while 'dealing with things' (leading to the cadaver odor) and then had a male member of the family (other than JI) come and help her. I think the male (let's say DB's brother) then took Lisa to dispose of the body which resulted in the sightings of the 'man with the baby in a diaper'. I think DB then took one of her boys to bed, partly for comfort and partly as a sort of 'cover' for her.
JI is possibly in the dark or maybe he's livid but helping to cover as he can't see any benefit in having the mother of his remaining children incarcerated...
Deborah and Jeremy's only child together is Lisa. One boy is Jeremy's and the other is Lisa's.
Yes sorry, I didn't mean to imply she was the biological mother of both the boys but more that she is the current acting mother in the current family unit. JI still might bawk at splitting that unit up further if he believes it was an accident.....or if he's unsure what to believe - he might still be trying to figure it all out for himself?
I am a little behind posting this week. So I apologize if this has been posted. I will catch up soon. I promise.
OK..Here is my take on Baby Lisa...Mommy got drunk...baby cried and would not stop. She shook her to death. Brother (from the grocery store) carries dead baby down the street to dispose of body. Clothes put in dumpster and set on fire. Daddy may have been one to set fire. He cant look in the camera so he knows what happened. Soon as they find the body...case closed. Why does it take these idiots so long to figure this out?
My thoughts, some one local, the family knows. And I hate to say this because its a horrific crime, but perps do molest babies. We see it in the news everyday. Some drunk/drugged up person came into the house, new the mom had been drinking. And took Lisa.
Or Someone took Lisa to keep/sell, which to be honest, I never see this theory come true.
Or the baby was involved in an accident, which I think that mom and dad if he was there, would of called for help, or place baby back in crib till morning, and ring for help. What kind of accident could occur where neither parents called 911. I can think of only 2, shaking/ abuse of anything physical. Even a drug overdose, if they were guilty could wait till the awoken the next morning. Because if daddy and mommy peeked into the room, unless they are nothing like me, and not check for breathing, which my kids are 6 and 4, and I still check. So if anything but those 2 things occurred, I think Lisa would stay in her crib and would of been found deceased in morning. Only reason a parent would hide a deceased child is if there were marks.
Those are my three theories.
And I am on the fence. Like everyone else, would love for Lisa to be found. Such a sweet little face!
Carlos, I am new and still trying to navigate my way to reply properly.
That said, YOU nailed it for me. There is something very odd about the look on the Father's face. Not just that, but when Mommy breaks down on camera, he doesn't hold and comfort her at the appropriate times. He's very cold. I suspect he holds her responsible for "something". And yes, the Brother could have been the one who disposed of the child's body.
My theory keeps changing. One thing that I do believe is that DB is an alcoholic and that she is at the stage where she is still denying that fact. She is generally "highly functioning", but drinks several times a week, most likely every day.
I know that some alcoholics get a sudden burst of energy while drinking and some try to make up for their drinking by making sure the regular routine activities are completed. However, they are so drunk that they don't realize that they don't have the coordination to do such a task. The well respected neighbor that falls off the roof while trying to fix a loose tile and the tox screening shows he was drunk. The woman who is found dead from a fall in the bathroom while she was trying to clean the shower stall.
Today my theory is that there was some kind of accident, related to DB's lack of judgement because she was drunk. That could be she forgot that she was in the process of giving her baby a bath, fell while carrying her, was too rough while trying to change her or even simply dropped her. This probably happened at around 10:30 pm, which is the time that DB first said she last saw her.
DB panicked and called somebody to help once she sobered up a bit and realized what she had done. I have a feeling that this happened between midnight and 2:30 am. I don't necessarily think it was JI, but somebody else in the family or a friend/neighbor.
The other person came and took the lifeless body somewhere to dispose of it. DB orchestrated the removal of the "body", which was mainly done to hide the fact that she was drinking. The sad truth is, that to a hard-core alcoholic, a drink or hiding the fact that you are drinking can be more important than your children. I don't think DB thought about how she would explain the fact that her daughter was missing the next day, but probably just drank the rest of the wine and passed out to escape the reality.
JI came home from work and found DB passed out. He noticed the lights on, the doors unlocked, the baby missing. Since he is co-dependent and also in denial, he just assumed it was a kidnapping and called the police. He didn't realize the can of worms he was opening by making that phone call. By the time DB sobered-up, it was too late to just admit what had happened, since JI had already called the police.
Jeremy comes home from work and finds that Deb has rolled over on and suffocated Lisa while passed out. He tries to wake Deb, but can't get her to respond.
He panics and he's scared. He loves Deb. His life has been so much better with her in it. She takes care of him, the boys, the house... He doesn't want her to have to face the consequences of her awful mistake; not from the law, nor from her own guilty conscience.
He decides to stage the kidnapping, and gets rid of Lisa's body in the nearby river, or buries her in the back yard.
The strange behavior we're seeing is his guilt - he knows it's tearing her up, but believes the truth would hurt her more. He's so far into the lie now, he doesn't know how to get out.
DB drank with the neighbor until 10:00 or 10:30, went inside and checked on baby Lisa (like she originally claimed) and went to bed. Lisa started crying later on during the night and DB got up to tend to her, but she was still drunk and agitated because JI had said he would be home by 10:00 and he still wasn't home. She took her anger out on Lisa or harmed her to punish JI. JI came home well before 3:00 to find DB hysterical, saying it was an accident, etc., and convinced JI to help her figure out what to do by telling him that they can't afford an attorney, they don't want to lose custody of the other kids, etc., and against his better judgment, JI disposed of the body and returned home for the second time at 3:45, they finish staging the house and call 911. That's why JI looks so confused, because he now realizes he is in big trouble and doesn't have a way out.
Okay ...why take cell phones if they DB and Hubby know they do not work? Do they really look that smart? Stranger(doubt it) or freaked out brother took them.
DB, if she rolled over and suffocated the baby seems far off, because women do that when a child is newborn (which is rare) and Lisa was ten months! if it was an accident no one would have been arrested, maybe questions, but in Kansas even if you drink your not going to be locked up. Accident happen.
That woman DB threw her baby off the bed, and poor little Lisa laid at the bottom of the bed dying while that drunk woman slept it off. Hubby maybe came home and saw the damage done and God forgive them both cause they covered up this lazy woman's evil deeds! Or the brother was involved with the cover up.
Hope the cops pull it together and figure out that the baby has to be close to home...maybe Casey Anthony can help them out on that one. I really think these woman tell their brothers everything and in most of these past cases the brothers all seem to be a part of what their sisters are doing...covering up for them. And most the guys like the father's and grandfathers always look clueless when being ask questions. JMO
However, if I am wrong, which I hope I am, I pray little Lisa is alive. Poor baby its a shame, Just awful.
1) Debbie drank a wine/vodka cocktail, over 5 glasses worth.
2) Debbie went inside at 10:30 p.m. and Monica left.
3) Debbie killed Lisa at 10:30 p.m. or shortly thereafter, possibly by taping her mouth and nose.
4) Debbie planned to do this well ahead of time. The alcohol lowered her inhibitions so that she would actually DO it.
5) Things like the kitten, the other cell phone, the cell phones missing, JI being on a late shift, all were to set this up IMO.
6) Debbie had an accomplice to take the baby away at around midnight.
7) JI did not know about what happened at the time of the 911 call, but various facts that revealed themselves later forced Debbie to give Jeremy the news that Lisa had died "accidentally" and she was covering it up to save custody of the boys, was freaked out, etc. (sob sob)
8) Debbie has since love bombed Jeremy and done everything possible (wink wink) to keep him loyal to her.
9) Debbie has caved in over what she did, but isn't about to cough up the truth.
10) Motive was a mix of financial incentives and for the attention. Real love is impossible for a sociopath.
Best strategy is to arrest Debbie and separate these two. Then get Jeremy disentangled from Debbie's spell. He will talk. He'll be pissed off eventually and will spill the beans. He is numb right now.
Wow, interesting twist....hadn't considered this....hmmm
I don't want to derail the thread but I'm wondering if anyone has a theory where DB and JI are innocent and Lisa was actually abducted. Can that possibility work in ANY way with the recent info regarding the dog hit etc?
I don't know what to think of JI. I agree, he holds mom responsible, and he seems in shock. It's not strange to me that he's acting robotic. But I did not like how he agreed with DB when she told Judge Pirro that the intruder probably did not come through the window, then agreed with DB AGAIN, when she told Megyn Kelly that the intruder "absolutely" came through the window.
There were reports on the Nancy Grace show that cadaver dogs had picked up the scent of human decomp near the parents bed.
Maybe Lisa was on the bed and DB rolled over onto her when she was drunk. Lisa was smothered and died. Later, the baby falls of the bed onto the floor where the cadaver dogs later hit on the smell.
Maybe a neighbor did see a man carrying a baby with only a diaper on. Maybe because the baby was already dead and he was just carrying her so it wouldn't matter if baby had no clothes on. A 10 month old is not that big. If baby was being "cradled" in a mans arms, how would any witness be able to say whether the baby was dead or alive while being carried across town?
Maybe the man carrying the baby was DB's brother? Called by DB to help her out?
And last point: Does anyone notice that in the grocery store video, while in the boxed wine aisle, at one poing DB turns around, steps a couple steps over and appears to be looking over and up. Maybe checking to see if security cameras were in place?
Was DB on government assistance? This would explain why the baby food purchases were on a seperate reciept from the boxed wine.
But then wouldn't the dog have hit on the bed as well?
The grocery video - JMHO that DB was looking in the coolers to see if any of the boxed wines were in there - so she could buy one that's already chilled.
I don't have a solid theory but things don't add up, like the cell phones, the way JI looks down or looks at DB when she is crying, and DB offering up that she was drunk and changing up the timeline. None of it looks good on their part. DB didn't have to say she was drunk, unless the person that was over drinking with her would let it out, so then maybe it was damage control on DB's part, IDK. JI looks like a man holding in a secret, not guilt on his part, but maybe guilt that he knows the truth.
I think that baby Lisa died, probably an accident and DB was scared she would be accused of some wrong doing or neglect because she was sleeping or drunk and LE would arrest her or take the kids out of the home. JI may have helped cover up what happened to save her and the kids. I don't know if the sightings had anything to do with the case, but maybe someone took the baby somewhere to be buried for them. That is the best I can come up with at this point in time. I hope I am wrong and the baby comes home safe, she is the sweetist little baby girl.
So many good common sense theories here:seeya: It wasnt until I heard about the dogs hitting on decomp odour that it sort of became somewhat clearer..I tend to think that baby Lisa was in that bed with mother..who had passed out from her drinking..Lisa fell off bed and died from the fall and Mom never heard it or sensed it.. Dad comes home and finds Baby Lisa..and coverup began..They removed her and hate to think just what they did then :blushing::furious:..then the rest unfolded per report of "Kidnapping"..
I tend to think it will all come out eventually..and unfortuantely ALL this is due to coverups..What a shame..:maddening::maddening:
BTW Joe Tacopina is not helping IMO:maddening: