Premeditated Murder #972

Discussion in 'Caylee Anthony 2 years old' started by JBean, Oct 13, 2009.

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  1. JBean

    JBean Retired WS Administrator

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    Is there enough for a jury to convict on premeditated murder? Many feel the tape is the smoking gun that "proves " premeditation.

    Of course we have not seen the defense's case so we cannot deliberate like a jury would and opinions may change.

    But based on what we have seen to date, what do you think about premeditated murder and a conviction of same?

    ETA: please please stay on topic as best we can.
     
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  3. marspiter

    marspiter Blah Blah Blah

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    Morning JBean. If you want to delete my doctor question post I think I found a better thread for it. Never mind you created a new thread while I was typing.

    Now back to our regularly scheduled broadcast:

    Yes I feel that the murder was premeditated and that the duct tape is going to be major evidence proving as such. Now I am not stating that the evidence "we" have right now would be sufficient in a court of law as of yet. However the overwhelming amount of circumstantial evidence in this case has convinced me of Casey's guilt and to what extent that guilt is. With out trying to seem conceded I feel that a number of potential jurors would draw the same conclusions from the same evidence. Also given that a juror is allowed to use their own reasoning skills to determine a verdict. I see a jury using that to conclude Casey is guilty of murder one based on the total impact of the evidence.

    I also feel that we the public are still missing a good portion of evidence. Keeping in mind the state brought these charges before the body was actually found leads me to believe that the state must have more compelling evidence then what we have seen thus far. This evidence in my opinion would cover all the key elements of the murder charge as I don't see the SA going to trial in a high profile case with out it. Can I prove this....no you can't prove a negative.

    I also feel that Dr. G's testimony is going to be crucial in this case and personally feel she will say much the same thing as the ME in the Huck case. There is the non formal letter she wrote about the autopsy that has yet to be released as well. Also if Dr. G gives testimony to the fact that in her expert opinion the tape was the COD. Then that would constitute premed. The time it took to place the tape on the child is more then sufficient for premed according to Florida.

    Also we have yet to see the entomology reports ( I don't think that was released to the public yet?) and there is still some evidence out there still that is yet to be released. Further I would also argue that in terms of premeditation that Casey's actions can also be draw into question much the same as the People v. Scott case (my pet case).
     
  4. countzero

    countzero self timeout

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    Well dang if I didn't compose a reply to the other thread only to find it closed and this one opened and it was lost in cyberspace. :crazy:

    Anyhow, I know it's bad form to quote myself. However, since leakage was discussed I am curious to know if the above could have been part of the SAs decision to go forward again with the DP. I still have not been able to find the FBI results for these three items.

    My thinking is IF decomp was found in/on the gas cans which were in the truck as well as in the oil pan part of the car then it would be premeditation along with the tape found attached to Caylee.

    JBean, if this does not belong here in this thread, please zap it away. Thanks.
     
  5. marspiter

    marspiter Blah Blah Blah

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    The entomology reports could also be very crucial in determining premed as well. Based on the entomology reports they could in fact prove that Caylee died in the trunk of the car. Based on there being coffin flies and no presence of blow flies. That coupled with the duct tape in my opinion also points to a premeditated act. In the hot Florida sun leaving your child in the trunk would only yield one conclusion.

    The time it took and the act of placing a live child in the trunk knowing full well what would happen is more then enough time for premed. Then you have the time after the child was placed in the trunk to the time the child actually passed away.

    Given how horrific a death like that would be I could certainly see a jury opting for the DP. Just imagine in your mind. Poor Caylee who trusted her mother now sitting in the trunk of a car in the hot Florida sun her face covered with duct tape. The agony and terror of the situation. That I think would sway even the most stone hearted juror.

    The Greeks as an example used the Brazen Bull as a means of execution. It was a horrific way to die and the the screams of the victim could be heard with in the bull. The trunk of the car would have the same effect...only slower.
     
  6. Cara's Mom

    Cara's Mom New Member

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    I know this is O/T, sorry, but just reading these descriptions of the possible COD of Caylee has me wanting to run to my daughter's pre-school, scoop her up in my arms, and never let her go. I think a jury will be smart enough to put all the pieces together to see this was a premeditated act. That monster will get hers.
     
  7. tweety933

    tweety933 New Member

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    Suppose for one moment that Caylee was still alive when Cindy called 911.

    By lying to the police about facts concerning finding Caylee, this could be considered premeditation, since Caylee in fact was later found dead on Suburban St.. Casey's aggravating negligence could be seen as premeditation, just as well as the fact that she didn't report her daughter missing for 31 days. Even "if" someone else murdered Caylee, by Casey's gross negligence her daughter DIED, and her lying about the facts surrounding her daughter being missing and in danger, proves that she wanted her to die. (Something like, oh well, someone took Caylee, but I'm not going to do anything to find her because I have La Bella Vida, if she dies, she dies, not my problem!)

    Isn't it true that if someone dies during the commission of a felony, any accomplice to the felony also gets charged with the murder? If Caseys' gross negligence of her child is a felony, and her daughter died as a result, wouldn't she be guilty of murder. Wouldn't accomplices to the gross negligence (anyone who helped lie to the authorities concerning facts or circumstances surrounding Caylee's disappearance) also be charged with murder? The medical examiner determined that homicide was the cause of death.
     
  8. BondJamesBond

    BondJamesBond Blunt Instrument

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    AFAIK, the legal definition of "premeditation" varies by state.

    Would much appreciate anyone able to post it as defined in the State of Florida. TIA!
     
  9. Brini

    Brini Future Irene Adler

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    Well, a guy in Florida who just recently beat his g.f.'s toddler to death-- on impulse. in a rage. Got charged w/ Murder I.

    Age of the victim is also an aggravating circumstance.

    IIRC in Florida, the death of a child by abuse constitutes pre-med, whether it existed or not.
     
  10. cecybeans

    cecybeans New Member

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  11. lin

    lin New Member

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    "“Killing with premeditation” is killing after consciously deciding to do so. The decision must be present in the mind at the time of the killing. The law does not fix the exact period of time that must pass between the formation of the premeditated intent to kill and the killing. The period of time must be long enough to allow reflection by the defendant. The premeditated intent to kill must be formed before the killing.

    The question of premeditation is a question of fact to be determined by you from the evidence. It will be sufficient proof of premeditation if the circumstances of the killing and the conduct of the accused convince you beyond a reasonable doubt of the existence of premeditation at the time of the killing."

    BBM

    From Florida Standard Jury Instructions, page 115

    If this is insufficient, I can look up some cases that may provide more detail but it appears to me that the definition is deliberately ambiguous, leaving the jurors to determine.
     
  12. Brini

    Brini Future Irene Adler

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  13. BondJamesBond

    BondJamesBond Blunt Instrument

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    FWIW...found this on the "Procedures..." thread.

     
  14. lin

    lin New Member

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    Lynch v. State, Nos. SC06-2233 & SC07-1246 (Fla. 2008):

    "...Johnson v. State, 969 So. 2d 938, 951 (Fla. 2007) ("Premeditation can be inferred from circumstantial evidence such as 'the nature of the weapon used, the presence or absence of adequate provocation, previous difficulties between the parties, the manner in which the homicide was committed, and the nature and manner of the wounds inflicted.' " (quoting Sochor v. State, 619 So. 2d 285, 288 (Fla. 1993))), cert. denied, 128 S.Ct. 2056 (2008)..." (emphasis added)

    Green v. State, 715 So. 2d 940, 943-44 (Fla. 1998) (quoting Coolen v. State, 696 So. 2d 738, 741 (1997):

    "...Premeditation is the essential element that distinguishes first-degree murder from second-degree murder. Coolen v. State, 696 So. 2d 738, 741 (Fla. 1997). Premeditation is defined as more than a mere intent to kill; it is a fully formed conscious purpose to kill. This purpose to kill may be formed a moment before the act but must also exist for a sufficient length of time to permit reflection as to the nature of the act to be committed and the probable result of that act..."

    Kilgore v. State, 688 So. 2d 895 (Fla. 1996), (holding standard jury instructions are sufficient to explain premeditation); Spencer v. State, 645 So. 2d 377, 382 (Fla. 1994)

    ETA: When no specific appellate court is listed, such as 5th DCA or 2nd DCA in a citation but instead it simply reads "(Fla. XXXX)" where XXXX = year, then it's a Florida Supreme Court case, such as most, if not all of the cases listed above.
     
  15. lin

    lin New Member

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    Quoted from Williams v. State, No. SC04-857 (Fla. 2007) :

    "...

    As with the felony murder charge, if "a rational trier of fact could find the existence of the elements of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt, sufficient evidence exists to sustain a conviction." Pagan, 830 So. 2d at 803. With regard to the element of premeditation, this Court has stated:

    "Premeditation is defined as more than a mere intent to kill; it is a fully formed conscious purpose to kill." This purpose to kill must exist for such a time before the homicide "to permit reflection as to the nature of the act to be committed and the probable result of that act." Premeditation can be shown by circumstantial evidence. Whether the State's evidence fails to exclude all reasonable hypotheses of innocence is a question of fact for the jury. As this Court has stated:

    Evidence from which premeditation may be inferred includes such matters as the nature of the weapon used, the presence or absence of adequate provocation, previous difficulties between the parties, the manner in which the homicide was committed, and the nature and manner of the wounds inflicted.

    Green, 715 So. 2d at 944. Moreover, whether premeditation exists is a question of fact for the jury, but the jury is not required "to believe the defendant's version of the facts when the State has produced conflicting evidence."

    Perry v. State, 801 So. 2d 78, 84 (Fla. 2001) (citations omitted) (quoting Green v. State, 715 So. 2d 940, 943 (Fla. 1998), and Spencer v. State, 645 So. 2d 377, 381 (Fla. 1994)). This Court has also held that "[p]remeditation may be formed in a moment and need only exist for such time as will allow the accused to be conscious of the nature of the act he is about to commit and the probable result of that act." Boyd v. State, 910 So. 2d 167, 181 (Fla. 2005) (internal quotation marks omitted). Further, we have held that "the deliberate use of a knife to stab a victim multiple times in vital organs is evidence that can support a finding of premeditation." Perry, 801 So. 2d at 85-86.

    ..."

    (emphasis and font color change added)
     
  16. lin

    lin New Member

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    If the cases posted don't sufficiently explain, just let me know and I'll try to pull some others but expect it's just going to repeat what has already been posted. This appears to be very well settled Florida law.
     
  17. BondJamesBond

    BondJamesBond Blunt Instrument

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    Barring any new evidence...it will be the tale of the tape.

    Dunno procedurally how the defense would move from SODDI to arguing this as accidental/negligent act (sentencing maybe?), but, would expect the defense to say it was Casey's intent to effectively incapacitate Caylee, not, to effect her death.

    IOW...being stoopid & narcissistic will be Casey's defense vs. being a "spiteful biotch". Perhaps her utterance to Lee will come back to haunt her, eh?
     
  18. Brini

    Brini Future Irene Adler

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    Doesn't matter, honey. Looks like death of a child 2nd to aggravated child abuse is capital murder, under FL law. Taping up the baby's face would sure as heck fall under that heading, if done while she was still alive. So would shutting her in the trunk, if that is what happened.
     
  19. Harmony 2

    Harmony 2 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    (bolded by Harmony and added red to text to reply... especially in reference to this quote from the red bolded "permit reflection as to the nature of the act to be committed and the probable result of that act")

    I have a question considering the following scenario since placement of duct tape to prevent leakage of pool water was mentioned in the other thread.

    Casey is busy texting, on the phone or computer and Caylee ventures outside to the pool and drowns. Casey finds her and pulls her out of the pool. She makes the decision not to render aid (call 911) for her daughter and covers her mouth and nose to stop leakage of pool water. Since Casey is not a trained medical person (to recognize a faint heart beat or shallow breathing, etc.) and since aid may have revived her daughter, wouldn't the decision to not call 911 (sufficient length of time to permit reflection as to the nature of the act to be committed) and allow Caylee to die (probable result of that act) be considered premeditation?



    (note: I do not believe this is what happened, just postulating this scenario...)

    Thanks in advance for any replies!!
     
  20. marspiter

    marspiter Blah Blah Blah

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    The state of Florida has good Samaritan laws. However Casey would not fall under those laws because of her special relationship with Caylee. Being her mother under the law Casey would have to render aid or get help regardless of the good Samaritan laws in place.

    So yes Casey would be obligated to help under the law do to her relationship to Caylee.

    I however don't know the laws in Florida and couldn't tell you what the punishment is for not rendering aid to your own child. I know most good Samaritan laws usually are used to protect people giving aid from civil liability and to my knowledge don't stipulate if one is required to give aid...unless they are medically trained.

    There is also the rescue doctrine found in tort law one example I found was Wagner v. International Railway[1], 232 N.Y. 176

    I suppose the act of not rendering aid would constitute premeditation and Casey having a specialized relationship to Caylee.....just not versed enough in the law to really answer your question sadly.
     
  21. tweety933

    tweety933 New Member

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    782.04 (1)a1 is what Casey has been charged with, which uses the word premeditated design, but from what I'm understanding reading 782.04 (1)b.....it states that any of the above capital offenses can be sentenced to "DEATH". 782.04 (1) a2 (particularly h.), doesn't use the word premeditated, although it, in and of itself could also bring about a "DEATH SENTENCE".

    I had previously been under the impression that only the 782.04 1a1 was the only charge that would bring about a death sentence, as that is what Casey is charged with, but the aggravated child abuse offense resulting in death can also bring about the death penalty. Is this particular offense which she hasn't been particularly charged with also included in the charge, or is it not?

    In other words, premeditation is not an essential element to be sentenced to death, is it? Aggravated Child Abuse resulting in death of the victim is also a death penalty offense.
     
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