Premeditated?

DeeDee249

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I definitely do not think the murder was premeditated. But I think the molestation was ongoing. I believe the note was written AFTER, as a way to explain why she was dead (because they called police and others).And I think they called all their friends to the house, in a very public display of flouting the "orders" in the RN, so that there would be no doubt that the "kidnappers" killed her because they spoke to people.
In a "real" kidnapping, I can see parents still calling police regardless of whether they were instructed not to. I'd do the same. BUT no way parents would ever call all their friends, clergy, etc- OTHER people to come to the house. Bad enough to call them, but to have them all driving up to the house, parking their cars, etc. indicates clearly that these parents had NOTHING to fear from that note. (because they wrote it and because the victim was already dead).
 

DeDee

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http://www.acandyrose.com/05312000larrykinglive.htm

P. RAMSEY: You must have conjured something in your head for you to come out and call me a murderer of my child. I want to hear one through 10. When did I write this ransom note? Before or after I killed JonBenet?

THOMAS: You tell me: You wrote the ransom note.

P. RAMSEY: No, you're the one theorizing here, you tell me.

--------------

if this was planned (possible,since we're dealing with a dysfunctional family) I still tend to believe the note was written after the killing as staging

The hostile exchange is prime Patsy, with her holier than thou attitude, as if she has a closer link than any of the rest of us. Yes, Patsy was a sly one. She knew ST did not care all of that much for her. She knew he felt she did killed her daughter and hoped to cover it. And, imho, she did it. All of it.
 

DeDee

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If the murder was premeditated, wouldn't it have been planned out better? The murder coverup and staging were a shambles.

What if it was planned out very well right down to the pineapple before dying? The murder was highly successful with hardly any blood. LE was unable to prove who did what.

Christmas Day guaranteed a light shift at the police dept. The staging perplexed LE whose investigation was a shambles.



I can imagine it being written before.I do think a premeditated murder of JonBenet is plausible.I'm going with the theory that Patsy "sacrificed" JonBenet (turning her into an angel so she would not have to suffer and soon be reunited with Patsy)and made sure her death would be unforgettable to the entire nation.

Patsy "sacrificed" JonBenet (turning her into an angel

Patsy killed her daughter for several reasons. All are selfish reasons, of course, but, know one thing. JBR was not going to grow up without her mother. JBR would never grow to become Miss America. However, Patsy

made sure her death would be unforgettable to the entire nation

Yes, Patsy made certain "JonBenet" became a household name. Patsy wanted her daughter to be and referred to her as America's Princess.
 

Anti-K

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Denial is a powerful thing. Adrenalin, running high, and the need to protect yourself and your family is a powerful stuff too.

Adrenalin might help you do a lot of things, but it isn’t going to help anyone write anything! It isn’t going to assist the creative, imaginative or critical thinking process at all.

I’m uncertain as to what you meant by “Denial is a powerful thing.”
...

AK
 

madeleine

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realizing that JB was unresponsive and there was no good explanation for how she came to be that way?

yep or one of the following:

-the killer decides to shut her up (JB fought back when abused)
-decides to put her out of her misery (mercy killing)

all the above=premeditation for me
it wasn't planned weeks/days ago ,maybe it was a decision made out of panic ,still the one who did it KNEW what he was doing
 

KarenUK

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http://www.acandyrose.com/05312000larrykinglive.htm

P. RAMSEY: You must have conjured something in your head for you to come out and call me a murderer of my child. I want to hear one through 10. When did I write this ransom note? Before or after I killed JonBenet?

THOMAS: You tell me: You wrote the ransom note.

P. RAMSEY: No, you're the one theorizing here, you tell me.

--------------

if this was planned (possible,since we're dealing with a dysfunctional family) I still tend to believe the note was written after the killing as staging

The hostile exchange is prime Patsy, with her holier than thou attitude, as if she has a closer link than any of the rest of us. Yes, Patsy was a sly one. She knew ST did not care all of that much for her. She knew he felt she did killed her daughter and hoped to cover it. And, imho, she did it. All of it.

Patsy's true nature showing through - and I might be reading too much into her response but she doesn't say "No, I didn't write it" rather than "No, you're the one theorizing..."
I might be reading too much into it but so many of her answers (rather than the scripted interviews she gave at other times) to be very telling.

I don't think the murder was premeditated though, the staging is so bad (although successful) I just think it had to have been done in a hurry overnight
 

KarenUK

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I think this is possible...would explain the lack of REGRETS and guilt.(if an accident or if BDI you would still see some guilt or regret,no?didn't happen with these two...).But IMO JR was more messed up in his head from all this religious stuff than PR and it happened after Beth died. :twocents:

it also explains their relief...she's in a better place,she's safe now with Beth,she won't have to suffer,etc,etc
it could also explain why it happened when it happened (Christmas day)

If BDI, do you think the lack of regret could have been out of consideration (for want of a better word) for him and maybe trying to give themselves a bit of comfort for what happened?
 

Anyhoo

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There was an interview where Patsy said something like do you think I wrote this note before or after I killed jonbenet? (She was speaking sarcastically).

I am going to find that part of the interview and post it here.

I am wondering if there is anyone here who thinks the note may have actually been written before JB was killed.

Also if there is anyone here who believes the murder was a planned thing (I'm not sure WHY it would have been a planned killing, but I'm just wondering if there's anyone who thinks that).


Moo: PR wrote the note after her daughter was dead. The murder was unintentional, likely done in a fit of rage. The murder was not planned. PR loved her daughter but PR was emotionally unstable and lost control and killed her daughter. Then JR helped her cover it up. It's taken me a very long time to reach this conclusion but I think I have it now.
 

madeleine

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If BDI, do you think the lack of regret could have been out of consideration (for want of a better word) for him and maybe trying to give themselves a bit of comfort for what happened?

If all the weird attitude was meant to make BR feel better or help him forget,move on,etc...why all the TV appearances?they just stirred the pot.if they covered for BR the best thing to do would have been to let the dogs sleep,be quiet and stay away from the media.:twocents:
all the circus didn't help BR at all (guilty or innocent)..THEY kept it in the spotlight allowing people to theorize whether he did it or not
 

questfortrue

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If all the weird attitude was meant to make BR feel better or help him forget,move on,etc...why all the TV appearances?they just stirred the pot.if they covered for BR the best thing to do would have been to let the dogs sleep,be quiet and stay away from the media.:twocents:
all the circus didn't help BR at all (guilty or innocent)..THEY kept it in the spotlight allowing people to theorize whether he did it or not

It''s been puzzling to me as well.

The adult R’s sure seemed to put BR under the umbrella with them, even though publicly suing and PR announcing that BR had been cleared.

First you have the strange, imo, comments:
From JR: The perp didn’t mean to kill her. She was wrapped in a blanket. (Well, that ligature sure does look intentional to me. I see a disconnect between that statement and the announcement that early afternoon that it was an inside job by someone who knew them.)
JR on CNN interview: We’re not angry. We just want to know why this happened.
From JAR: The perp needs to be forgiven.
From PR: How could someone do this to another child.

Just some additional hinky thoughts regarding the R’s in relation to BR’s role. One of the questions I’ve had is whether the cell phone records from December, might have revealed a call placed by JR to someone like MB. What if JR called someone and said that BR had accidently caused a serious injury to JB while they were playing around; lawyer/friend MB may have said that BR couldn’t be charged anyway. I’ve wondered for some time exactly when did JR and PR learn that BR could not be charged, or mentioned, no matter what he had done. moo
 

madeleine

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It''s been puzzling to me as well.

The adult R’s sure seemed to put BR under the umbrella with them, even though publicly suing and PR announcing that BR had been cleared.

First you have the strange, imo, comments:
From JR: The perp didn’t mean to kill her. She was wrapped in a blanket. (Well, that ligature sure does look intentional to me. I see a disconnect between that statement and the announcement that early afternoon that it was an inside job by someone who knew them.)
JR on CNN interview: We’re not angry. We just want to know why this happened.
From JAR: The perp needs to be forgiven.
From PR: How could someone do this to another child.

Just some additional hinky thoughts regarding the R’s in relation to BR’s role. One of the questions I’ve had is whether the cell phone records from December, might have revealed a call placed by JR to someone like MB. What if JR called someone and said that BR had accidently caused a serious injury to JB while they were playing around; lawyer/friend MB may have said that BR couldn’t be charged anyway. I’ve wondered for some time exactly when did JR and PR learn that BR could not be charged, or mentioned, no matter what he had done. moo

you have brought up something that has been bothering me for a long time now...I have always wondered what role MB has in all this...does he know more,did he get involved earlier than they said,did he help them with the staging (was he called that night,did he send someone over,etc)...cause JR's statements re MB's involvement(timing) are contradicting....now in TSOS he claims he was called by someone who told him the cops were after them...not what he claimed in his interviews,etc

I also wonder when exactly the DA office was involved (by the R team) and if this was the reason why the police dept treated the R's as victims and not as suspects like they should have.
 

Anyhoo

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It just seems that writing a note like this would be relatively easy if it was done before the murder. How does one recover sufficiently enough to come up with and create such a thing after sexually assaulting and asphyxiating a child to death?
...

AK

If it had been PR alone crafting the RN, then I would agree with you that PR alone would have been too emotionally traumatized by what had happened to think clearly enough to have crafted the RN. That is why I say the RN was not her idea at all, but JR's. JR was the cool-headed, intelligent thinking person who came up with the idea for the RN and also assisted in its creation by giving PR ideas as she wrote it. If you just consider PR, then premeditation looks logical. But when you add JR to the equation, no premeditation is necessary.
 

Nom de plume

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It''s been puzzling to me as well.

The adult R’s sure seemed to put BR under the umbrella with them, even though publicly suing and PR announcing that BR had been cleared.

First you have the strange, imo, comments:
From JR: The perp didn’t mean to kill her. She was wrapped in a blanket. (Well, that ligature sure does look intentional to me. I see a disconnect between that statement and the announcement that early afternoon that it was an inside job by someone who knew them.)
JR on CNN interview: We’re not angry. We just want to know why this happened.
From JAR: The perp needs to be forgiven.
From PR: How could someone do this to another child.

Just some additional hinky thoughts regarding the R’s in relation to BR’s role. One of the questions I’ve had is whether the cell phone records from December, might have revealed a call placed by JR to someone like MB. What if JR called someone and said that BR had accidently caused a serious injury to JB while they were playing around; lawyer/friend MB may have said that BR couldn’t be charged anyway. I’ve wondered for some time exactly when did JR and PR learn that BR could not be charged, or mentioned, no matter what he had done. moo

JR's statements, and PR's too, are beyond belief. There are so many more than this too. I've never seen anyone progress through the grief process as fast as these two. They breezed through denial, anger, bargaining (regret), and depression and moved right on to acceptance and forgiveness in under a week. (CNN interview) Amazing.

While I'm not BDI, I've often wondered when they found out he couldn't be charged. If they made that call in the middle of the night, wouldn't MB, or who ever, have said, "Hey no worries. Just call 911, he can't be charged with anything anyway."? They why all the staging? Why the RN? Obviously, at some point they were told that info, but it may have been a case of "We can always throw BR under the bus because he can't be charged" coming from the RST.

I do believe calls were made that night, but I doubt BR was the subject discussed. I think JR called MB (or some other atty), told him to get ahold of someone in the BPD & DA's office and make this thing go away. "Call in favors, do whatever you have to do, call the governor if you have to, but keep ME out of jail!" Not "us", but "ME!!" because IMO, down deep JR doesn't really care about anyone but himself. JMO If it had come down to it, JR would have thrown PR and/or BR under the bus to save his own backside. He did it to everyone else in town, why not them too? Again, JMO.
 

Anyhoo

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Do we know for a fact that those phone records were never looked at? Is it true that BPD tried to get those records and was blocked by AH? Is it possible JR received outside advise about what and how to stage over the telephone that night? Would JR, faced with such an unexpected horrific situation as this, have dealt with on his own or would he have called people he knew he could trust to ask for advise?
 

Venom

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JR's statements, and PR's too, are beyond belief. There are so many more than this too. I've never seen anyone progress through the grief process as fast as these two. They breezed through denial, anger, bargaining (regret), and depression and moved right on to acceptance and forgiveness in under a week. (CNN interview) Amazing.

While I'm not BDI, I've often wondered when they found out he couldn't be charged. If they made that call in the middle of the night, wouldn't MB, or who ever, have said, "Hey no worries. Just call 911, he can't be charged with anything anyway."? They why all the staging? Why the RN? Obviously, at some point they were told that info, but it may have been a case of "We can always throw BR under the bus because he can't be charged" coming from the RST.

I do believe calls were made that night, but I doubt BR was the subject discussed. I think JR called MB (or some other atty), told him to get ahold of someone in the BPD & DA's office and make this thing go away. "Call in favors, do whatever you have to do, call the governor if you have to, but keep ME out of jail!" Not "us", but "ME!!" because IMO, down deep JR doesn't really care about anyone but himself. JMO If it had come down to it, JR would have thrown PR and/or BR under the bus to save his own backside. He did it to everyone else in town, why not them too? Again, JMO.

BBM, the embarrassment of it all might have given them the reason not to.
 

gramcracker

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Do we know for a fact that those phone records were never looked at? Is it true that BPD tried to get those records and was blocked by AH? Is it possible JR received outside advise about what and how to stage over the telephone that night? Would JR, faced with such an unexpected horrific situation as this, have dealt with on his own or would he have called people he knew he could trust to ask for advise?
Steve Thomas' Jonbenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation/kindle location 3855
The DA's office seethed about our collaborating with the Dream Team, which the media viewed as a direct slam against the way Alex Hunter ran his office. The DA himself admitted, "There is no question that outside lawyers providing assistance to a police department is unusual in a criminal investigation." Hunter's people struck back immediately.

Our new attorneys told us to draw up warrants to get the Ramseys' phone records and cellular phone logs and Patsy's boots to match against the puzzling beaver hair found on the duct tape. They couldn't believe similar requests had been denied for months.

Sergeant Tom Wickman and I took my affadavit for the Ramsey records from US West and AirTouch over to Deputy DA Trip DeMuth for review. He was arrogant and aloof, read the two-page warrant, then abruptly said he had to "run it by" someone else in the office. He was back in a few minutes and proclaimed that the warrant lacked probable cause. Bob Keatley, our in-house lawyer, tried in vain to explain that it contained more than enough sufficient facts and information.

DeMuth then left to confer with his immediate superior, Deputy DA Pete Hofstrum, and returned with a litany of other problems, alleging vague sources and material omissions.

Wickman was dumbfounded, and I almost lost my temper. "For Christ's sake. This is a simple affadavit for telephone records. Do you want the pineapple, the duct tape, and the kitchen sink in there too?" I thought I was being rhetorical.

"Yes," he said. "You need all of that. This is a death penalty case, and we have to be careful."

I said that an eighty-page affadavit was not needed for telephone records and cited other cases, but DeMuth dug in his heels and asked, "What are you hoping to find?"

"Who knows? Did a kidnapper call? Did the Ramseys call anyone before they called 911? If I knew what I would find, I wouldn't be getting a friggin' search warrant!"

DeMuth specifically noted an item that he said "inferred" the Ramseys were not cooperating. "Maybe we should just ask them - "

"No *advertiser censored**ing way!" Sergeant Wickman broke in.

What began as a request for a simple warrant I felt became payback for bringing the Dream Team aboard.

As we walked out, DeMuth said that although we had the legal right to take the warrant directly to a judge, "Make sure you tell him it does not have the support of the district attorney's office." It was a cold threat.
Thomas' IRMI/kindle location 3982
[FBI] CASKU [profilers] observed that they had never seen anything like the Ramsey ransom note.

[snipped]

The crime was an incredibly risky one for an outsider to undertake, the profilers said, and was committed by someone who had a high degree of comfort inside the home. The note was created to misdirect law enforcement and focus attention elsewhere and was a cathartic act that allowed the offender to "undo" the murder in one's own mind.

[snipped]

The following day the profilers had some pointed questions for the DA's staff.

Why hadn't phone records been gathered? Damn good question, I thought. Why did everyone but the DA's office understand the importance of those documents? Only fifteen days before, Deputy DA Trip DeMuth had rejected our affadavit to do just that, and now he said the police warrant "was s**t."

Hofstrom chimed in, "Let's just ask the Ramseys" for permission, a response that left the FBI agents incredulous. Many months would pass before we discovered that the DA's office had not overridden the Ramsey attorneys' request to maintain an "island of privacy." Our prosecutors should have handed them a grand jury subpoena on the spot, demanding the records, and they never explained to us why they would not do so.
Thomas' IRMI/kindle location 4224
We achieved a Pyrrhic victory on November 5 when Beckner burst into the SitRoom and proudly handed me a "Consent to Release of Telephone Records" signed by both John Ramsey and Pete Hofstrom. It allowed us to obtain the Ramseys' cellular and home telephone records between December 1 and 27, 1996. We had had to wait almost a year to see them, which had given the Ramsey lawyers months to work through the limited documents. The woefully incomplete permission slip did not give up Ramsey's company phones, calls made with a telephone card, or records about calls before or after December.

I sent a fax to AirTouch in Washington state and personally served the paper on US West in downtown Denver.

"I've been waiting for a phone call from you guys since last December," a telephone company security official said as he handed me the packet. "Usually cops come and get these things right away."

I winced, so tired of being embarassed by this case.

[snipped]

The AirTouch cell phone records were useless. Ramsey started the service in January 1994. AirTouch said that 91 minutes of use were logged during the August-September billing period of 1996, and 108 minutes were used in September-October. October-November was just as busy.

December, however, the only period we were allowed to see, was empty. No calls at all. I asked if someone could have removed billing records from the computer? "No way," the AirTouch source told me.

"All these months preceding December are busy, and not one call was logged for that entire month?"

The representative was firm: "There ain't no way anybody altered these records." It wasn't logical. A search warrant might have answered the question eleven months ago, but we had only this thin new "consent."

Checking the records, I found a repeat caller to John Ramsey's private office line. Three calls the day after the murder and two more a few days later came from the home phone of the lieutenant governor of the State of Colorado, Gail Schoettler.

Treating her like any other witness simply didn't work. The lieutenant governor strutted her political stuff and stonewalled me until she was damned good and ready to answer questions. Her husband, Don Stevens, a friend of John Ramsey for thirty-five years, had made the calls merely to convey sympathy, Schoettler told me. The experience demonstrated how deeply John Ramsey was now plugged into the Democratic Party power structure. Colorado Governor Roy Romer was chairman of the Democratic National Committee and advised by the politically astute Hal Haddon, one of John Ramsey's attorneys. Haddon's firm prepared President Clinton taxes. When Schoettler left office, she was appointed head of the US delegation to an international commission by President Clinton.
 

Anyhoo

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Steve Thomas' Jonbenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation/kindle location 3855

Thomas' IRMI/kindle location 3982

Thomas' IRMI/kindle location 4224

Just reading that almost 20 years after these events happened frustrated and pissed me off. I can only imagine how detectives working on the case at the time must have felt. My resignation would have been the result. There is no way I would work on a case under those conditions. The DA's office was totally compromised. As for the phone records, who knows what information was deleted? God, how could this happen in the 20th century? It screams coverup. My opinion: the DA's office allowed a Ramsey to get away with murder.
 

Anyhoo

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Do I even need to say that the only reason there would be a problem with getting the phone records is if there was something there to incriminate the Ramsey's? If the phone records showed nothing, why deny the request so long? I cannot understand this. I think there was information there that incriminated JR and the delay gave them time to sanitize it, so what the BPD saw was useless.
 

Nom de plume

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BBM, the embarrassment of it all might have given them the reason not to.

This is true. They may not have called about BR for two reasons:
1. Embarrassment.
2. He didn't do anything.

There had to have been a phone call to someone that night, otherwise why all the run around about the phone records? If there's nothing to hide.....
 
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