Premeditated?

Anyhoo

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If JR called one or more people after the murder and before the 911 call, who would he trust enough to call? Can we speculate on this? His attorney is a given, but who else? Remember, he has to be absolutely sure that whatever he divulges will never be disclosed in such a way to ensnare him. Absolute trust is a must.
 

gramcracker

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- - > a doctor (and maybe more than one)

- - > friends in high places
 

questfortrue

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you have brought up something that has been bothering me for a long time now...I have always wondered what role MB has in all this...does he know more,did he get involved earlier than they said,did he help them with the staging (was he called that night,did he send someone over,etc)...cause JR's statements re MB's involvement(timing) are contradicting....now in TSOS he claims he was called by someone who told him the cops were after them...not what he claimed in his interviews,etc

I also wonder when exactly the DA office was involved (by the R team) and if this was the reason why the police dept treated the R's as victims and not as suspects like they should have.

Not that I know much about him, but MB was the attorney at Access Graphics, and formerly worked for the DA’s office before going into business law. He undoubtedly knew people in the DA’s office personally. MB was at the F’s residence the evening of the 27th, and according to Kolar’s book, was giving the family legal advice. What JR told LS in an interview in June ’98 was that MB just “happened” to be there delivering food on the 27th. Dr. B was also there and told LE that PR was too distraught to be interviewed. The next day (the 28th) Asst. DA notified BPD that the R’s were being represented by attorneys and LE would have to give written questions to the R’s attorneys.

However, we do know that the H law firm (the firm retained) had been hired the afternoon of the 26th (or earlier, in the morning?) though, because they were in contact with FW family on the 26th to try to secure an interview with FW. But back to MB, he gave an interview on national tv to Diane Sawyer (according to Kolar book). In that interview he inferred that attorneys were contacted on Saturday, the 28th, connecting that to the fabricated story (described by Kolar) about the police “ransoming” the body. MB stated this was morally and ethically wrong and he advised the R’s to get counsel.

So again, my hinky meter says wait a minute . . .who contacted the H law firm so early; did MB make a suggestion to JR? And when did someone make that suggestion to JR? JR did go missing in the home the morning of the 26th, and he may have been able to phone either MB or the H law from the basement. My knee-jerk suspicion falls on MB, who worked at one time for the DA and whom JR referred to as a friend. Iirc, further evidence of this association is that it was MB who arranged for investor/friends to purchase the 755 15 street home. Moo
 

Venom

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This is true. They may not have called about BR for two reasons:
1. Embarrassment.
2. He didn't do anything.

There had to have been a phone call to someone that night, otherwise why all the run around about the phone records? If there's nothing to hide.....

I agree. I think IF BDI, they wouldn't have called out of fear of losing their status and all that. But with all that is involved in this case, it's anyone's guess on if they'd have called or not.

You would think that if there was nothing to hide, and if it would help "point" the finger elsewhere (as the R's claim they were suspects from the start) then they'd have readily made those phone records available.

JMO
 

Venom

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If JR called one or more people after the murder and before the 911 call, who would he trust enough to call? Can we speculate on this? His attorney is a given, but who else? Remember, he has to be absolutely sure that whatever he divulges will never be disclosed in such a way to ensnare him. Absolute trust is a must.

Would anyone really trust another person with that kind of secret?
I think it's highly plausible that he made calls, I just can't get over trusting another person with a secret that big.
 

Venom

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Not that I know much about him, but MB was the attorney at Access Graphics, and formerly worked for the DA’s office before going into business law. He undoubtedly knew people in the DA’s office personally. MB was at the F’s residence the evening of the 27th, and according to Kolar’s book, was giving the family legal advice. What JR told LS in an interview in June ’98 was that MB just “happened” to be there delivering food on the 27th. Dr. B was also there and told LE that PR was too distraught to be interviewed. The next day (the 28th) Asst. DA notified BPD that the R’s were being represented by attorneys and LE would have to give written questions to the R’s attorneys.

However, we do know that the H law firm (the firm retained) had been hired the afternoon of the 26th (or earlier, in the morning?) though, because they were in contact with FW family on the 26th to try to secure an interview with FW. But back to MB, he gave an interview on national tv to Diane Sawyer (according to Kolar book). In that interview he inferred that attorneys were contacted on Saturday, the 28th, connecting that to the fabricated story (described by Kolar) about the police “ransoming” the body. MB stated this was morally and ethically wrong and he advised the R’s to get counsel.

So again, my hinky meter says wait a minute . . .who contacted the H law firm so early; did MB make a suggestion to JR? And when did someone make that suggestion to JR? JR did go missing in the home the morning of the 26th, and he may have been able to phone either MB or the H law from the basement. My knee-jerk suspicion falls on MB, who worked at one time for the DA and whom JR referred to as a friend. Iirc, further evidence of this association is that it was MB who arranged for investor/friends to purchase the 755 15 street home. Moo

BBM

Has anyone else ever heard of giving written questions before being interviewed? And the DA's office was just like, oh ok we'll get these questions written up for you ahead of time? :facepalm:


MB would be a good candidate, imo, as he worked as a lawyer for AG and was personal friends with JR.

imo
 

pageantmom

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Maybe Burke really was asleep all night and woke up to whatever was going on.......if they found out a child under 10 can't be charged and it can't even be made public that the child committed a crime, then how convenient for them to happened to have a child under 10 in the house.
This is gross, but, you know the joke about a person passing gas and saying the dog did it, since he can't talk and won't know you blamed him.
Now Burke can talk of course, but I'm just saying it's very convenient if you committed a crime to happen to have a child under 10 in the house.

Edited to say I don't think they would ever have pinned the crime on a child if it had to be public, I don't think they'd to do that to poor burke, but, if they found out that "under 10" basically means no one can talk about it, no one can make it public, no one ever has to know....then, well, that would make the idea of using Burke very appealing.
 

gramcracker

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MB, formerly of the DA's office, was definitely the "inside man" IMO. re the PR move by the grieving parents that BPD was "ransoming the body" ...

Steve Thomas' JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation/kindle location 834
By midafternoon, after studying the autopsy results, [Cmdr] Eller still had unanswered questions about the body. What about the massive skull fracture? What and where was the murder weapon? What about the vaginal trauma? A lot of points needed to be covered.

Chief Koby pointed out to him that the body itself had become evidence, and to release it at this point could affect the investigation. Eller and the coroner agreed.

But only a few minutes passed before Deputy District Attorney Pete Hofstrom called to say that the Ramseys were asking about burial. His appearance raised an important question that was not addressed: Why were the Ramseys already communicating through the DA's people rather than directly to the investigating detectives? That indicated they were talking through a private lawyer, and with the strong links between the DA's office and the defense attorneys in Boulder, that could only mean trouble for the police.

Eller told Hofstrom that Koby, the coroner, and he had decided to hold the body for further evidentiary tests, and thought no more of it.

His attention at the moment was focused on setting up formal Q-and-A sessions with the Ramseys.

[snipped]

A short time later an agitated Pete Hofstrom came into Eller's office.

"Pete, we need to talk to the Ramseys," the commander told the prosecutor.

"You can't ransom the body for an interview," Hofstrom shot back.

"We are not 'ransoming' the body. It's just premature to release it."

"You can't ransom the body," Hofstrom repeated, as if he had not heard Eller's words.

"I'm not suggesting that," the commander said, laying out the forensic and evidentiary concerns.

"You can't ransom the body," Hofstrom insisted for a third time.

Eller grew irritable. "Pete, they are unrelated issues. Go make your deal with them, that's what you do. We need an interview."

We would later learn that Hofstrom went to see Mike Bynum, who was already representing the Ramseys behind the scenes, and announced, "We've got a problem." We was the word that shook us.
Thomas' IRMI/kindle location 4722
Fleet [White] told us that lawyer Mike Bynum had called them shortly after the body was discovered. Surely he was talking about December 27, the night John Ramsey talked with Bynum at the Fernie house. White found his notes and said, "No, it was the day before, on the afternoon of December 26." You sure of that date, I asked. White checked his notes again. Yes.

The minds of two detectives went into overdrive. The body of JonBenet was found at 1:05 PM. Now White was saying that an attorney was already in play, calling wittnesses, only a few hours later. WOW!

Fleet added that he was also interviewed by three people associated with Team Ramsey the following day, December 27, when he didn't know any better than to speak with them. The private investigators weren't out canvassing the neighborhood for an intruder but were pinpointing the Ramseys' best friends while the police were being stalled.

in Schiller's Perfect Murder Perfect Town, the scenario is that Bynum was retained about 7:30 PM on the 27th after JR went for a walk outside with John Fernie and Dr B. then JR went back outside for another walk, alone. (to make phone calls in private?)

James Kolar's Foreign Faction/kindle location 5671
It is important to understand, however, that in our system of justice, the innocent frequently take advantage of legal counsel, and this is especially the case when they can afford to do so. But John Ramsey's explanation of the timing of attorney involvement didn't correspond to the facts when the details of witness statements came to light. Mike Bynum's attempt to explain the timing and the reasons behind attorney involvement betrayed his clients' ulterior motives in my view.

It appeared to me that the Ramseys were fortifying the ramparts within hours of the discovery of JonBenet's body, so that they could tactically manage not only the police inquiry, but the heat the media was soon bringing to bear on the investigation.

I watched with some degree of amusement, and anger, as the parents of 6-year-old Aronne Thompson took the same tack in Aurora, Colorado several years ago. Her parents reported that she had gone missing one day after a family argument in November 2005 and called police to seek their assistance in finding her.

The events described by the parents didn't quite ring true to investigators, however, and the parents soon were considered to be persons of interest in the investigation, something that I would describe as being similar to falling under the umbrella of suspicion. Lawyers coming to the defense appeared to be taking the same approach as Team Ramsey, and had at one point sought a court order to obtain copies of police notes and reports while the case was still under active investigation. Prosecutors in this instance didn't cave to the defense bar, and successfully fought the motion to produce the records.

The disappearance of Aronne was a case that was eventually proven to involve real parental abuse. Interviews with the remaining siblings revealed that Aronne had mysteriously disappeared from the home well over a year previous, not on the afternoon that the parents called police to report the family tiff.

The body of Aronne was never found, but the parents were subsequently indicted by a grand jury on numerous counts of criminal conduct. The mother passed away just before the indictments were released, and Aronne's father was eventually sent to prison for her murder.

I considered this a prime example of where a police department and the prosecutor's office worked in partnership with one another to solve the disapearance and suspected murder of a small child. Unfortunately, this collaborative effort was virtually non-existent in the case involving JonBenet Ramsey, and it is my hope and desire that there is a lesson to be learned in all of this.
 

borndem

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I'd like to see the transcript/interview if you find it.

I think it's another of her "tells". People who are trying to hide a massive lie often tell on themselves in obscure ways. I don't know that she killed JB, but I believe she wrote the note.

bbm

My thought exactly, Tawny. Freudian slip?

I still think that BR hitting JB on the head & the rents doing the rest is the most logical series of events, but if PR did it, I think it was an accident in JB's bathroom where PR & JB were arguing, PR hit her or hit at her & JB hit her head on the tub or the wall and her skull was bashed. But then someone "finished" the act with strangulation.
icon8.gif


It had to be on PR's mind at all times...
 

borndem

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:seeya: Newbie here, so I hope it's OK to start on my favorite forum.

I think the note was written afterwards to cover up the accidental killing of JonBenet. I tend to fall more within the RDI camp, but I'm open to any information available. I also think it's possible that it's one of Patsy's "tells." I can't think of any at the moment, but it seems that she's inadvertently said other things that are indicative that she's involved in the murder &/or coverup of JonBenet's death.

Good post, Newbie! And one more thang:

Welcome,

:cheer:

:drumroll:dazeerae!!:drumroll:

We're happy you're here on

:websleuther:Websleuths!!:websleuther:
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borndem

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If the murder was premeditated, wouldn't it have been planned out better? The murder coverup and staging were a shambles.

bbm

I totally agree, Chelly; the murder coverup, etc., were a bit messy and not well-planned, but it's worked so far. :banghead:

As has been said many times in these threads, anyone posting on the JBR threads, more than just likely, would have been in the :jail: within 24 hours of JB's death... JMO
:twocents:
 

eileenhawkeye

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I think there was some premeditation. After the head trauma, I think someone made the decision to strangle JonBenet to finish her off, and to go along with the staging. It might not be planned out weeks in advance, but that does show some premeditation. I think it's possible the Ramseys decided to write a ransom note, in order to complement themselves. The ransom note basically says that JonBenet was abducted because of how successful and wealthy her father is. The whole staging seems to be that we are not an ordinary family, we were targeted because of how perfect we were. Maybe the reason why they didn't dump the body outside, report JBR missing, and let police think it was some lowlife random predator who took her, because that is something that could happen to any child.

I also wonder if they thought people would buy that a foreign faction wrote the ransom note....or if their story from 12/26 was that someone pretending to be a a foreign faction wrote the note?
 

icedtea4me

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I would think that a foreign faction would be more interested in going after a first-born son (John Andrew) as opposed to a third-born daughter (JonBenet).
 

KoldKase

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I agree, it makes less sense for it to be written first, but, I just wondered if anyone thinks that, Patsy's comment just kind of startled me and made me wonder, I am still searching for her comment lol ..there's a LOT of interview but I will paste as soon as I locate it

Yeah, the Ramseys made some startling comments, particularly after Hunter gave them their get-out-of-jail-free card when he buried the Grand Jury indictments.

My favorite was when JR asked the pastor interviewing them on the Christian Broadcast Network, "What if we did kill her?"

That was a jaw-dropper.

The Ramseys got cocky after they knew for sure they got away with it. Their lack of understanding what actually innocent parents of child victims truly feel told on them. Often.
 

txsvicki

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I have a little trouble with any of it being accidental. What are the odds that a child would be sexually assaulted (or physically abused), accidentally hit in the head, and then strangled all within a ten day or so period of time.
 

Venom

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I have a little trouble with any of it being accidental. What are the odds that a child would be sexually assaulted (or physically abused), accidentally hit in the head, and then strangled all within a ten day or so period of time.

Does anyone know:
when JB's trips on Monday mornings to the school nurse started?
when she started to become very clingy to PR?
 

eileenhawkeye

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Yeah, the Ramseys made some startling comments, particularly after Hunter gave them their get-out-of-jail-free card when he buried the Grand Jury indictments.

My favorite was when JR asked the pastor interviewing them on the Christian Broadcast Network, "What if we did kill her?"

That was a jaw-dropper.

The Ramseys got cocky after they knew for sure they got away with it. Their lack of understanding what actually innocent parents of child victims truly feel told on them. Often.

There's an article that has a list of all guests on talk shows next week. For Katie Couric's show, it says that John Ramsey is supposedly a guest, along with other parents of murdered children. However, when you go on her website, there's no mention of him being a guest, nor is he shown in the preview video, so I don't think it's true. Anyway, the parents who are going to be on the episode (Tuesday) are the parents of Megan Kanka, Natalee Holloway, Samantha Runnion, Chandra Levy, and Laci Peterson. Can you imagine JR being on a show with those parents? All those parents have started foundations in their child's name, while JonBenet's family doesn't even have a website for her. It would annoy me if they had John on the show, acted like he's had the same plight and struggles as all those other parents.
 

questfortrue

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Does anyone know:
when JB's trips on Monday mornings to the school nurse started?
when she started to become very clingy to PR?

ST reports in his book that there were 2 Monday visits to the nurse in Dec '96. The Bonita papers also list that JB (according to teacher) was extra clingy to PR in Dec. '96.
 

borndem

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Copied from post by questfortrue (bbm):


From PR: How could someone do this to another child.
"Another child" -- ?? Hmmm, those two words just jarred me -- and maybe I'm just reaching (surely, Shirley, I've never done that before :rolleyes: ), but WTH did she mean by "another child"? Perhaps meaning something like, from one child to another?? As in BR to JB? <smh> That's the way I read it, anyway. Bothersome. Was it another slip or tell? Was it on purpose -- to throw a dash of blame or doubt wrt BR?

Did those two words bother anyone else? Or should I get down from the ceiling?

--------------------------------------------------------------
ETA: And thanks to qft for the good & thoughtful post!
--------------------------------------------------------------
 

Tawny

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No, those words are highly suspicious and lead me to think her brain was thinking "how could a child do this to another child".
 
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