Prior Vaginal Trauma

[Holdontoyourhat]

OK, work with me here. If you are willing to concede that it is possible, not indisputably proven, not even probable, just possible, that JB was molested prior to the night of her death, then you also must consider that her molester might be her muderer. Prior molestation does not necessarily indicate RDI, but it ups the ante of motive for whomever the killer(s) is or are. It also opens up the possibility of staging and RDI. It is most certainly not absurd to consider the possibility of previous sexual abuse. You state as fact, "JBR was never molested by anyone previously," when that is clearly unknowable. The only person who can state unequivocably whether or not she was ever abused has lain dead for 14 years. You do a disservice to her memory to negate the possibility. Sex play, sex games with children, molestation evolve over time in many cases. There is grooming and conditioning involved, groundwork laid for ensured silence. Most molesters will not murder, and of those who do, most will not murder upon first abuse. LinusK can school you on that if you doubt my word.

Most RDIs are willing to concede that it is certainly possible that IDI, although not likely. It is the closed minds in the IDI camp who steadfastly refuse to admit the possibility of RDI.

Are we discussing the same case? You're going on and on about child sexual abuse but this isn't a child sexual abuse case. Its a child murder case and its not known if there was any sexual abuse prior to the murder. You wish to carry on implicating JBR's own beloved parents or others in child abuse or molestation of JBR clearly without enough facts, and in the same breath claim I am doing JBR a disservice. This is just getting too absurd.

You state as fact, "JBR was never molested by anyone previously," when that is clearly unknowable.

Thank you. I now understand my own feelings when others state things as fact that are clearly not known, e.g. PR wrote the note.

JBR was never molested by anyone previously. This cannot be shown to be otherwise.

Previous sexual abuse is just one idea developed using the murder as a springboard for various ideas. It sticks to the wall better only because its sensational and it makes for good copy at the supermarket checkout.

 

[Linda7NJ]

MY BOLD

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. I believe that sexual abuse is very important regardless if RDI or IDI. If IDI and JB was molested even one time prior to her murder, it bears looking into as well. She was a high profile, coddled child from a family of wealtrh and privilege, not some latch-key kid from the 'hood. Yet if she was molested, someone who had access to her breached some serious boundaries. Investigators are trained to look at who had access to the victim, which certainly would include family members by default. Perhaps this is a case of mutual exploration between siblings, perhaps something far more sinister. It doesn't have to be someone in the family at all, but if she was molested, it has to be someone who had access. How this person or persons could have too much influence in a murder investigation eludes me.

Children from wealth and privilege get molested too, it's just not "some latch key kids from the hood"

 

[akashana]

Of course they do. All too often, unfortunately. Victims of childhood sexual abuse come from all strata of society, as do pedophiles. Perhaps my meaning wasn't as clear as it should have been. What I intended to say was that JonBenet came from a wealthy family and participated in pageants where she was highly visible and well-known on the circuit. She had a stay at home mom as her primary caregiver and was not customarily babysat or in after-school daycare settings. When she was doing her pageants, Patsy was a constant presence. It is certainly possible that someone associated with the circuit could have gotten her alone to molest, and possibly on more than one occasion. It's also possible that somebody from the extended family or circle of friends could have done the deed. But the Ramsey lifestyle was such that their children were not left unsupervised to fend for themselves as some children from lower socio-economic classes are by necessity, due to their parents' need to work. Access is key to molestation; if there is no access, there can be no opportunity to molest. I maintain that the list of people with unrestricted access to JB is finite and not very long.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Of course they do. All too often, unfortunately. Victims of childhood sexual abuse come from all strata of society, as do pedophiles. Perhaps my meaning wasn't as clear as it should have been. What I intended to say was that JonBenet came from a wealthy family and participated in pageants where she was highly visible and well-known on the circuit. She had a stay at home mom as her primary caregiver and was not customarily babysat or in after-school daycare settings. When she was doing her pageants, Patsy was a constant presence. It is certainly possible that someone associated with the circuit could have gotten her alone to molest, and possibly on more than one occasion. It's also possible that somebody from the extended family or circle of friends could have done the deed. But the Ramsey lifestyle was such that their children were not left unsupervised to fend for themselves as some children from lower socio-economic classes are by necessity, due to their parents' need to work. Access is key to molestation; if there is no access, there can be no opportunity to molest. I maintain that the list of people with unrestricted access to JB is finite and not very long.

BBM

Hi akashana. I'm hoping I can make my point here, sorry, it's been a very long day. Although the list of those with access to JB was finite, it was probably longer than you realize. If you just count male family members, there were at least four; her father, her full brother, her half brother, and her grandfather. Then when you consider that the Ramseys spent a great deal of time socializing with close friends, that lists gets quite a bit longer. There were way too many people with access to this little girl, from adolescents to much older men. I would start any new investigating with the first four I mentioned and then go down the list of the others, hopefully being allowed dna samples from all those in the friends group, even though I don't believe she was molested by any of them. If there was prior molestation, I believe it was from a close family member. I will NEVER forget Nedra Paugh's famous remark: "She was only a little bit molested"! Thank God that woman was not my grandmother and bless JonBenet's heart because she was hers.
ETA: I do not believe the dna found on the longjohns and panties belonged to anyone who molested JB. This is my opinion only and I am not "locked" into it. I would love to see justice for JonBenet and it matters not one whit whether I am right or wrong.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Of course they do. All too often, unfortunately. Victims of childhood sexual abuse come from all strata of society, as do pedophiles. Perhaps my meaning wasn't as clear as it should have been. What I intended to say was that JonBenet came from a wealthy family and participated in pageants where she was highly visible and well-known on the circuit. She had a stay at home mom as her primary caregiver and was not customarily babysat or in after-school daycare settings. When she was doing her pageants, Patsy was a constant presence. It is certainly possible that someone associated with the circuit could have gotten her alone to molest, and possibly on more than one occasion. It's also possible that somebody from the extended family or circle of friends could have done the deed. But the Ramsey lifestyle was such that their children were not left unsupervised to fend for themselves as some children from lower socio-economic classes are by necessity, due to their parents' need to work. Access is key to molestation; if there is no access, there can be no opportunity to molest. I maintain that the list of people with unrestricted access to JB is finite and not very long.

I disagree with darn near everything I highlighted and just about everything I didn't! lol .

The unhighlighted ....children don't just get molested by babysitters or in daycare.

Children get molested typically by those CLOSEST to the child. It's usually a family member or a close family friend.

The highlighted RED I am not going to address because I feel it's unrelated to the topic and flat out wrong.

The bolded text

It's common knowledge that JonBenet would call out for someone to come wipe her, she was neither modest or particular and neither was Patsy as to who met this need.


JonBenet was left unattended at the party the very night before. How many other parties did she attend? ANY member of the Ramsey family could have molested her. Anyone the Ramseys trusted could have molested her. But, my money is on a Ramsey.

The child's lack of modesty, soiling herself, bed wetting, frequent visits to the pediatrician for vaginal issues, erosion of her hymen all points to prior and ongoing sexual abuse IMO.

 

[MurriFlower]

Did the DNA in the panties, longjohns, and under the nails all match each other? Or was it 3 different DNA or impossible to tell?

Matching.

 

[akashana]

Are we discussing the same case? You're going on and on about child sexual abuse but this isn't a child sexual abuse case. Its a child murder case and its not known if there was any sexual abuse prior to the murder. You wish to carry on implicating JBR's own beloved parents or others in child abuse or molestation of JBR clearly without enough facts, and in the same breath claim I am doing JBR a disservice. This is just getting too absurd.



Thank you. I now understand my own feelings when others state things as fact that are clearly not known, e.g. PR wrote the note.

JBR was never molested by anyone previously. This cannot be shown to be otherwise.

Previous sexual abuse is just one idea developed using the murder as a springboard for various ideas. It sticks to the wall better only because its sensational and it makes for good copy at the supermarket checkout.

MY BOLD

Then why was she sexually abused the night she was murdered? By definition, her sexual abuse/murder makes it a child sexual abuse case. Many if not most murdered children are not sexually abused. Yet this one was, in a most horrific way.

I still aver you cannot know with certainty whether or not she was previously molested. The red flags were waving. But you have to open your eyes in order to see them.

 

[akashana]

I disagree with darn near everything I highlighted and just about everything I didn't! lol .

The unhighlighted ....children don't just get molested by babysitters or in daycare.

Children get molested typically by those CLOSEST to the child. It's usually a family member or a close family friend.

The highlighted RED I am not going to address because I feel it's unrelated to the topic and flat out wrong.

The bolded text

It's common knowledge that JonBenet would call out for someone to come wipe her, she was neither modest or particular and neither was Patsy as to who met this need.


JonBenet was left unattended at the party the very night before. How many other parties did she attend? ANY member of the Ramsey family could have molested her. Anyone the Ramseys trusted could have molested her. But, my money is on a Ramsey.

The child's lack of modesty, soiling herself, bed wetting, frequent visits to the pediatrician for vaginal issues, erosion of her hymen all points to prior and ongoing sexual abuse IMO.

I concede the list is longer than I thought. joeskidbeck pointed that out to me and I stand corrected.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

MY BOLD

Then why was she sexually abused the night she was murdered? By definition, her sexual abuse/murder makes it a child sexual abuse case. Many if not most murdered children are not sexually abused. Yet this one was, in a most horrific way.

I still aver you cannot know with certainty whether or not she was previously molested. The red flags were waving. But you have to open your eyes in order to see them.

You're trying to tell me that Ozzie and Harriet molested their kids. What red flags? They're clean.

 

[akashana]

For ease of access and out of sheer laziness, I'm gonna quote Linda7NJ here:

"The child's lack of modesty, soiling herself, bed wetting, frequent visits to the pediatrician for vaginal issues, erosion of her hymen all points to prior and ongoing sexual abuse IMO."

What she said.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

For ease of access and out of sheer laziness, I'm gonna quote Linda7NJ here:

"The child's lack of modesty, soiling herself, bed wetting, frequent visits to the pediatrician for vaginal issues, erosion of her hymen all points to prior and ongoing sexual abuse IMO."

What she said.

I go by BPD and their concerted efforts to produce evidence of prior abuse of any kind. There were no results, they were clean. On a scale of criminality, JR and PR have more in common with with Ozzie and Harriet. Not to be insulting but they're just not very abusive or criminal. On their own, I mean.

I'm sorry I don't go by forum posts, tabloids, hearsay, disgruntled houseworkers, or rumor. I'm not surprised that RDI does. Its their existence.

 

[akashana]

I know, I know. You dispute medical records and coroner's remarks as well, sadly.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I know, I know. You dispute medical records and coroner's remarks as well, sadly.

Nice accusation but I don't have any medical records and I wasn't there to hear the coroner's verbal remarks and therefore I wouldn't know how to interpret them correctly. I'm pretty sure RDI simply misconstrues them or takes them out of context to suit their needs. I'd have to speak to a clinical professional to know for sure.

I suggest reading the autopsy report where the coroner describes injury to JBR that is consistent with someone who had a genuine intent to kill JBR in a violent way, as opposed to an accident. RDI forever sugar coats the autopsy report, even suggesting that the deep furrow was post-mortem.

Good luck with your RDI witch hunt. Its a dead end. Don't take my word for it, check the news.

 

[joeskidbeck]

You're trying to tell me that Ozzie and Harriet molested their kids. What red flags? They're clean.

One question, HOTYH. Do you have children? Grandchildren, nieces, nephews, or any child in your life that you love?

Predators may very well look and act like Ozzie and Harriet. Please learn this lesson now if there is a child in your life. Forget about JonBenet. She's gone and none of us can help her now, but there are children out there who are being victimized by people/persons that you would never believe would be doing it. This is a fact. You seem like such an intelligent person, yet you refuse to believe that any of the Ramseys could have done any of these things. Are you related to them or good friends with them? Even being IDI doesn't explain why you are so defensive of them. I'm sorry, it's really none of my business. You are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe for any reason you choose to do so, I only asked out of concern.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Once again, HOTYH, please accept my apologies. I guess it's easy to see that this subject is very close to my heart. I never meant to say anything to hurt you.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

You seem like such an intelligent person, yet you refuse to believe that any of the Ramseys could have done any of these things.

Maybe you answered your own question with that one? Thanks.

Are you related to them or good friends with them? Even being IDI doesn't explain why you are so defensive of them.

I want to provide IDI equal time vs. RDI (which has gotten a lot easier since the DNA!),

I'm sorry, it's really none of my business.

Probably not.

You are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe for any reason you choose to do so, I only asked out of concern.

Thank you for your permission.

 

[txsvicki]

Of course they do. All too often, unfortunately. Victims of childhood sexual abuse come from all strata of society, as do pedophiles. Perhaps my meaning wasn't as clear as it should have been. What I intended to say was that JonBenet came from a wealthy family and participated in pageants where she was highly visible and well-known on the circuit. She had a stay at home mom as her primary caregiver and was not customarily babysat or in after-school daycare settings. When she was doing her pageants, Patsy was a constant presence. It is certainly possible that someone associated with the circuit could have gotten her alone to molest, and possibly on more than one occasion. It's also possible that somebody from the extended family or circle of friends could have done the deed. But the Ramsey lifestyle was such that their children were not left unsupervised to fend for themselves as some children from lower socio-economic classes are by necessity, due to their parents' need to work. Access is key to molestation; if there is no access, there can be no opportunity to molest. I maintain that the list of people with unrestricted access to JB is finite and not very long.

But, the family constantly socialized, even on Christmas Day. Surely the kids weren't supervised at all times when they had and attended all those parties and events.

 

[akashana]

I notice that the level of snark in the JBR forum is diproportionately higher than in any other I have ever posted on in WS, and it is disheartening to say the least. I'm not sure why it is necessary to bash other posters and their opinions to further an agenda or to attempt to prove a point. Intelligent and articulate people should be able to civilly engage in discourse and debate on a subject without degenerating into snark and snide remarks. It's demeaning to the posters and makes the whole forum unpleasant. I think we can agree to disagree on pivotal issues without sinking to that level, and I for one am going to make a concerted effort to do so even if that means I have to ignore comments and posts from certain members. I challenge everyone to also rise above that level and bring civility back onto these threads.

 

[DeeDee249]

I just went and read the autopsy report and some comments about that. It was thought that she was dying or died right before that sexual assault because there were no white blood cells at the injury site. White blood cells from the body beginning to try and heal.

I don't believe she was dead during that sexual assault because as I said, dead people don't bruise or bleed. Mayer stated in the autopsy that there was "no evidence of organization" at the site of the head injury (i.e. no white blood cells to the "rescue".

 

[DeeDee249]

So you admit there was no 'hymenal erosion' written in the autopsy!!

An abrasion and an erosion are not the same thing, the two words are not interchangeable in an autopsy situation. Hymen would have sustained an abrasion by the insertion of something (finger etc?) that rubbed.


It does NOT imply this happened at any time prior to the assault immediately preceding her murder. You have just interpreted what you read to fit with your RDI theory.

I admit nothing if the kind. Abrasion and erosion have the same meaning here. Both imply a rubbing away of the tissue, as opposed to tearing or cutting.
And for the purposes of language used in the report (and this has been said before, and not only by me) CHRONIC means "happened at least once before). ACUTE means just happened.