Psychological Autopsy of Patsy Ramsey

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by rashomon, Feb 5, 2007.

  1. rashomon

    rashomon New Member

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    The key question in the JBR case for me is "Who was Patsy Ramsey"?

    One major difficulty is that, since the Ramseys have successfully evaded justice, no professional psychological evaluation has ever been done on them.
    So when trying to analyze her, we'll largely have to rely on our own psychological knowledge, our own experience.
    At an autopsy, the first step is always to view the body from the outside, and I'll try to approach the person Patsy that way too as a first step:

    Patsy "seen from the outside" seems to have been a woman upon whom the Goddess Fortuna had showered a cornucopia of precious gifts:
    Not only was Patsy beautiful, she was also intelligent and had a university degree. She did not come from a broken home, but from a close-knit middle class family.
    She struck it rich in her marriage, her doting and generous multimillionaire husband denying her nothing, enabling her to indulge in lavish decorating sprees in her splendid homes.
    She had two healthy, beautiful and intelligent children, a boy and a girl.
    What more could Patsy Ramsey wish for in her life ? She "had it all", so to speak.
    And even when a dark shadow - cancer - showed up in her paradise, Patsy again was among the fortunate ones in the end. For she could pay for the best medical treatment available, and finallly beat ovarian cancer, one of the most aggressive and rapidly fatal cances which exist. Again she was lucky.

    But what lay behind that glamorous surface? What do we really know about this woman's inner life?
    The picture which poster Cookie (who is great photographer) put in the "New Globe is out" thread on FFJ(#138 post) is very interesting:

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/sho...ge=12&pp=12

    Cookie is actually Judith Phillips, a friend of Patsy's whose comments on the family are also in Schiller's book PMPT.
    She seems to have known Patsy pretty well.
    That picture sent chills down my spine. Nedra looks like a 'battleax' type of woman and I ask myself what kind of mother she was to her daughters. Probably not the warm and giving type, more a very demanding type.
    It is also immensely interesting what Judith Phillips said about Patsy's mother Nedra: (PMPT, pb., p. 249):

    "Well, Judith, we're just getting Jon Benet into a few pageants ."
    "Why would you do something like that?"
    "You know, she's not too young to get started."
    "And what if JonBenet isn't willing" I asked. "What if she says, I'm not going to do it? How would you respond to that"
    "Oh Judith, we would never consider her saying no. We would tell JonBenet, "You must do it. You will be Miss Pageant."

    It was sort of eerie. A litte scary. The inevitability of it - from grandmother to mother and now to daughter.

    Eerie indeed. How many "choices" did a mother like Nedra leave to her daughter Patsy? What could Patsy decide for herself?
    What seems to be completely missing in Patsy's life was a 'phase of rebellion' which so many young people go through. Where they question their parents' values, where they try to find out who they are and what they really want for themselves, but in Patsy's case, nothing of the kind happened.
    Patsy seems to have wanted what Nedra wanted, and took over right where Nedra left off: Patsy was a Miss West Virginia, and JonBenet was destined to climb the next step: Miss America.
    Was Patsy Ramsey a dutiful daughter almost "too good to be true"? Was she so trained and conditioned to be constantly put on display that in the process she lost contact to her inner self?

    From one of UKGuy's posts on another thread:

    I haven't looked it up yet, but it sure sounds interesting.
     
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  3. julianne

    julianne Former Member

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    Quote:
    "And even when a dark shadow - cancer - showed up in her paradise, Patsy again was among the fortunate ones in the end. For she could pay for the best medical treatment available, and finallly beat ovarian cancer, one of the most aggressive and rapidly fatal cances which exist. Again she was lucky."
    End Quote.

    Um...I don't know if you wrote that Rashomon, or if it was copied from the link you provided, but either way it's way off base. Patsy wasn't lucky in regards to her ovarian cancer. Patsy didn't beat her ovarian cancer. It is what killed her at such a young age. I don't know how it can be said that "she was one of the fortunate ones in the end"-----NO, in the end, it killed her. What is so "lucky" about that????
     
  4. coloradokares

    coloradokares New Member

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    Julianne at the time of JonBenet's death Patsy was considered to be cancer free. It claimed her life in a return battle 9 years 6 months after JonBenets death. Please understand that is incredible longevity for stage 4 ovarian cancer. Not that death is easily ever acceptable due to cancer. However prognosis on Ovarian cancer discovered at that level is far far less. Usually months. Maybe a few years if all stops are pulled out. So this is to many families who have lost loved ones due to this cancer would seem incredible. I think that is what was being said was Patsy was indeed fortunateto have incredible resources to help enable her to fight this at her disposal Not all cancer patients receive that level of care. Uninsured and underinsured patients do not receive cutting edge treatment. Many choose hospice knowing the extreme financial hardship that would be placed on them at this already difficult time. I had a friend who thought she'd really been blessed to have the additional 19 months she lived with the same diagnosis. Another lived not quite 6 months. One day lets hope there is a measure of equality for all. Every life is equally valuable. CK
     
  5. BlueCrab

    BlueCrab New Member

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    rashomon,

    The above sentence could be misinterpreted. Actually, when John and Patsy married, John was not rich. John and Patsy started the business together in their garage, and they made it a success together.

    BlueCrab
     
  6. coloradokares

    coloradokares New Member

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    While that is true, it was not years and years in coming. John was always the force of the business and I don't think Patsy had any problem at all acknowledging that. The garage didn't last long at all.
     
  7. capps

    capps New Member

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    I agree with Julianne that having cancer that ends up taking your life is not fortunate or lucky,whatever the means you have to battle it,cancer is cancer ... it's not lucky.It's not fortunate.

    I agree with BlueCrab,that Patsy was not forunate or lucky to marry into money,they were struggling from the beginning,and they both worked at it to bring the business to where it was successful.

    As far as Nedra ... I don't know how one picture can give you chills,and bring you to the conclusion she was a battleaxe,when she was told to pose straight and serious like a soldier. As far as the quote you took from Judith Philllips,Judith also says,that Nedra was kind to her,and she didn't see her as the tyrant type.She also was amazed at the dedication Nedra gave to Patsy at her time of need,when she was recovering from cancer.

    Rashomon,it seems your psychological autopsy of Patsy Ramsey has many flaws.
     
  8. rashomon

    rashomon New Member

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    I know about this, BlueCrab. I meant by 'struck it rich' the later financial status of the marriage, when John became rich.
    I meant it in the sense of 'again Patsy was lucky': the man she married was such a successful businessman later that he became a multimillionaire.
    And Patsy's ambition and drive certainly had been of help to John here.

    But you are right, "she struck it rich" could be misinterpreted of her marrying someone who was already rich (and maybe marrying him because he was rich). But this was not the case here.
     
  9. rashomon

    rashomon New Member

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    Photograpy is my hobby, and I'm often surprised at how much people's personality will still shine through even if they are told to pose as someone else, or like someone else.
    Judith Philips said that Nedra was kind to her, but also that it was clear that Nedra was the head of the family.
    'Commanding officer' Nedra. That's what I see in his picture.
    And that to Nedra it was completely out of the question for JB to say "no" to the pageants is also very telling imo.
    If she was that pushy with her granddaughter, how pushy had she been with her own daughter Patsy?
    Nedra obviously was a very strong presence also in Patsy's adult life.
    "As long as John Ramsey brings in the money, we're going to spend it", quite a selfish comment by Nedra. It's the "we" (Patsy and Nedra? Or the whole Paugh clan?) which stands out here. Nedra obviously felt it she too had the right to spend John's money, although it wasn't her money.
    S. Thomas visited Nedra at her home and was struck how totally obsessed she was with pageants. And at JB's funeral ceremony, she proudly showed visitors the embalmed child in her pageant outfit and tiara. (ST, p. 62). Chilling.
    It is not 'my' psychological autopsy of Patsy Ramsey; I have started a thread because it interests me very much how we all see her.
     
  10. julianne

    julianne Former Member

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    It's simply a matter of opinion---Photography has also been my hobby for a great many years, and if you are involved in photography yourself, surely you must know that a photograph can depict a completely different story than the one "real life" is portraying. I have taken hundreds of photographs that attest to the fact that you can capture subjects on film who, by simple elements such as posing & lighting, can "appear" completely opposite than they are in real life. So, while it can be said that oftentimes peoples personalities show through on film, there is another side of the coin that figures just as prominently that film can hide and even "change" someones real life perceptions. The very first thing you learn about photography is that although a photo can tell many stories, it's just as easy for the photo to depict and portray certain nuances of someone that is opposite from who they really are, by simple lighting and posing elements.
     
  11. coloradokares

    coloradokares New Member

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    John was never so poor he didn't have two nickles to rub together in the pockets. Upper Middle Class ......He at least had the money and wherewithall to get the business going with a small loan from his father in law Don Paugh. So lets not put them on the downtrodden list. He'd just been through a divorce with kids.....
     
  12. coloradokares

    coloradokares New Member

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    I am not a photographer. As mentioned above it was the set of the jawline and the set of the eyes. It was like a facade. Like she needed to look a certain way....it said I am wealthy and privileged. Also ice princess. One of the most wonderful photos I saw of Patsy though was with JonBenet and they looked so much alike and Patsy nor JonBenet had a ton of makeup on. I wish we'd of seen more photos like that.
     
  13. Ames

    Ames New Member

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    That picture made absolutely NO sense to me. What was the theme supposed to be, anyway? They all look mean, and stiff.... and then JB is saluting....what is with THAT? They should have been dressed up in military garb...and had a nazi symbol behind them, and a picture of Hitler....I don't mean to offend...but, thats what came to my mind when I saw it.
     
  14. Solace

    Solace New Member

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    Me too. It was bizarre in its way.
     
  15. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    It looks like one of those pics you take at the fair or a carnival..where the subjects dress up in old-fashioned clothes. (no offense meant to Judith,I'm sure she's a good photographer).
     
  16. coloradokares

    coloradokares New Member

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    Did someone post an actual picure or link to one specific photo. I must have missed it Ames if you could re post the link or tell me where to go see the one your speaking of I'd appreciated it totally. Thanks
     
  17. coloradokares

    coloradokares New Member

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    Oh my heavens I found the link above I'd missed..... it is GHASTLY......
     
  18. Ames

    Ames New Member

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    CK, I just now got back online and saw your post about me posting the link to the picture. I am glad that you found it on your own...I was just about to pm you with the link. Yes, that picture is extremely strange...no offense to Judith...but I wonder who came up with the theme for the picture? They all look like they smell DOO DOO or something else bad. No smiles...or anything. Just a military stance...and a salute from JB. :confused:
     
  19. wenchie

    wenchie Former Member

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    That's a fantastic photo. Notice how, while they're all looking straight at us, they're also all looking down?

    I don't agree with the bio in the OP. Patsy was attractive (not beautiful) and in spite of her degree, the intelligence shown in the ransom note she wrote is nil.

    Like most sociopaths, she expects to be able to tell fantastic lies and stories, and to have them accepted. How could she have thought that anyone would accept that wild ransom note as legitimate?

    Patsy's husband appears to be a cold, authoritarian, workaholic cheater, and her mother is just downright weird!

    I think that she lived with so many layers upon layers of denial that she had no clue what reality really is or was.
     
  20. rashomon

    rashomon New Member

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    The caption above the picture was actually "Salute to American Justice". Quite ironic, isn't it, with Patsy in the picture who successfuly escaped justice. But I don't know more about the context in which the picture was taken.
    See #7 post on this FFJ thread:

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6429&page=1
     
  21. Dru

    Dru New Member

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    Rashomon, I think your question, "Who was Patsy Ramsey?" is an interesting one that deserves to be considered.

    I know my own opinion is probably colored by my belief that JR is the one responsible for JBR's death and that PR ended up helping with the coverup, but here goes.

    I think PR was someone who was a definite Histrionic Personality, and may even have suffered somewhat from Histrionic Personality Disorder.

    The symptoms are as follows:
    "A pervasive pattern of excessive emotionality and attention seeking, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

    1. is uncomfortable in situations in which he or she is not the center of attention
    2. interaction with others is often characterized by inappropriate sexually seductive or provocative behavior
    3. displays rapidly shifting and shallow expression of emotions
    4. consistently uses physical appearance to draw attention to self
    5. has a style of speech that is excessively impressionistic and lacking in detail
    6. shows self-dramatization, theatricality, and exaggerated expression of emotion
    7. is suggestible, i.e., easily influenced by others or circumstances
    8. considers relationships to be more intimate than they actually are"
    I think that PR fits this description, and what's important to me particularly are #s 1, 6, and 7.

    Pretend for a second that JR did do it and PR was manipulated into helping with the coverup in the way I described on another post (i.e., that JR 'staged' the crime scene first to make it look like BR did it, counting on PR's cooperation in 'protecting' their son). How would someone with Histrionic Personality Disorder react?

    Well, by #7 we might find that PR would be suggestible, would believe the staged scene and whatever JR chose to tell her about it. #6 would then account for all the over-the-top self dramatizing that took place, including the RN and PR's attempt to throw suspicion on the housekeeper, when it is clear that JR intended the first 'suspect' in this crime to be his disgruntled ex-employee!

    And then #1, "Is uncomfortable in situations in which he or she is not the center of attention," accounts for much of the rest. In my opinion, PR became her own worst enemy. By constantly thrusting herself into the limelight she made sure that everyone involved in this case would inevitably conclude that she herself was the killer!
     

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