Question about laws regarding minors

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by madeleine, May 8, 2013.

  1. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    okay,so a 9year old can't be charged with murder under CO law....

    can he be sent(forced) though to a mental institution?by the state I mean,not the parents

    if he commits a horrible crime for ex and it's because of serious mental issues

    cause I still wonder.....if BDI....if it was just a stupid accident...accidents happen,it's tragic,but no need to risk EVERYTHING (family,future,money,health,etc) in order to cover up for something like this....call 911,people would understand

    but if it's something worse than just a simple accident....the consequences are totally different....

    an accident wouldn't ruin the family's/son's reputation....but if he did it because he has other problems (dark sides)?

    dunno,Kolar's book made me think of a lot of scenarios....


    some parents do blame themselves if the kid is mentally disturbed,some are ashamed.....good reasons to cover-up
     
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  3. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    something just crossed my mind....Kolar talks in his book about how strange he found it when JR said in his CNN interview that he's not angry but wants to know why....this always puzzled me as well....I just realized,this is how you talk to a child when he does something bad...."look,I am not angry but I wanna know why you did it,I need to understand..."
     
  4. midwest mama

    midwest mama Active Member

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    Going further along in "The Other Side....." (ref: TOSOS, making myself because I want to learn more about how John Ramsey thought/thinks) - one of his big bugaboos with not being able to fully connect to the Lord earlier in his life is because he was always asking "why" - regarding all the major strife that he had in his life that was not as he thought it should have been in order for him to have the "good Christian life" that a "good person" like him should have.

    JR found it hard to accept that he should ever have to face any trauma in life, because he didn't feel he deserved to. I think he asked, "why" again after JB was killed, because he wanted his perfect family portrayed as above and beyond the possibility of anything heinous happening to them, and it was an indignant slam, once again, against the Lord being unfair to them. Unfair, by the way, is how JR continually describes some of the most key elements of his younge,r and prior JB's death, life experiences. He was not a happy camper about his overall situation - he thought he was doing everything "right enough" and deserved to have everything in his life happen "right enough".
     
  5. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    If BDI


    anyway,no matter how much I dislike it...but I put myself in their shoes and I am having mixed feelings about this.....would I cover up for my child if I'd be afraid that he will be sent to a mental institution?I can't say definitely NO.....hard to think about this,really....if they did cover up for him I might understand their reasoning.....dunno....I really don't....maybe I would have lied as well.....ugh...IF she was already dead and there was nothing to be done to save her.....cause if just an accident you would definitely call 911....

    but I always come back to this.....no matter who did it,it wasn't just an accident....there was more to it>>>>such a staging,so many lies and cover ups....
     
  6. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    BR would not have been able to be forced into a mental institution, by his parents or anyone else. To do that- you have to be committed, and it can be ordered by a judge, but you have to be seriously mentally ill or criminally insane. BR was neither. He may have been disturbed, may have had a mild form of autism, etc. but he was not anywhere close to being seriously ill enough to be committed to an institution.
    No way an innocent parent of a sexually assaulted, murdered child is "not amgry" They are ANGRY. What difference does it make "why"? they did it. Who cares why- she's dean. Why would you even want to know? Who strangled a child and penetrated them with a paintbrush? What could possibly explain why? Of course, WE do explain it here. The penetration covered up a previous sexual assault, the head bash came in response to a scream, and the strangulation is either part of the sexual assault or staging. But these aren't the explanations the Rs are looking for.
     
  7. questfortrue

    questfortrue Member

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    Madeleine, you’re right - the question of protecting a second child from the consequences of his actions cannot be answered in the context of the family R’s situation. That much dysfunction, that much lying and that much manipulation, the money spent for all the best lawyers and PR consultants they could afford, isn’t within most people’s means or even psychologicalf temperament. And anyway, this wasn’t just a domestic “accident.”. Even if caused by a rage, the head strike was intentional, the sexual assault was intentional, the strangulation was intentional. Not calling 911 was a decision that night.

    And PR and JR had been co-conspirators from way back when. Ever heard this story::
    From ACR: MIKE KANE: Just to follow up on
    2 what Lou was saying about Gloria Williams. You
    3 said you finally put a stop to it, or called and
    4 said -- how did you do it?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was
    6 actually Patsy indirectly or unknowingly helped
    7 that. . .
    1 She came upstairs with these two wine
    2 glasses and here is this woman standing and
    3 knocking on my door and she said well, where is
    4 he? And this Gloria JR’s ex-girlfriend) says he is in with her.
    5 Patsy said her, her who? She said Patsy. Oh,
    6 well, I was just bringing these wine glasses
    7 back.
    8 She was smooth as a cucumber, and
    9 later that evening, I came back, kind of told
    10 her what had happened, I said I had this
    11 girlfriend that was crazy and I just didn't want
    12 it to -- and so I said I was going to stay
    13 there that night and sleep on the couch, because
    14 I didn't want to be in my apartment and we were
    15 just talking and knock, knock, knock on the
    16 door, and -- actually I think I was going to
    17 leave. There was a knock on the door, and I was
    18 literally behind the door, Patsy opened the
    19 door, it's Gloria , and she said I was waiting
    20 for John, I want to come in, use your phone and
    21 Patsy said, "oh, our phone is out of order, we just
    22 moved in."
    23 And here I was standing behind the
    24 door, I was -- then she just was -- and from
    25 that moment -- first of all, from that moment
    0488
    1 on, Gloria left me alone and I also realized how
    2 much, what a significant person Patsy was.
    3 Because here she was a 23-year-old, just
    4 standing there. So that was kind of the
    5 breaking point (with Gloria).

    Note the pride in JR’s voice over PR’s capacity for manipulation and deceit.

    Pretty clever and smart those R’s. And even BR. BR was caught in some lies speaking to the psychologist and indicated he had secrets, but he wasn’t going to tell her.

    How I wish someone like Dr. Robert Hare (he wrote the book on forensic psychopathy and sociopathy) had reviewed the R family.
     
  8. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    or maybe this is a ''couples who kill '' case'.....anything is possible
    mother&son did it
    husband&wife did it
    father&son did it

    BDI would explain their behavior and actions,still,too much mess and some things don't fit BDI alone....
     
  9. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    JB's things smeared with feces....this definitely shows that there was a problem (envy,anger) between the siblings....
    anyway,IMO no shrink and no pills can ever really fix such a behavioral problem...if BDI he will show his true face one day I am sure....daddy won't live forever to protect him..and it was JR himself who had concerns re B's reaction to all of this (emotional) when he'll turn 40 or so....we'll see...
     
  10. otg

    otg Reports of my death are greatly exagerated... but

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    Hi, maddie. I'm glad to see you posting again.

    I understand the possibilities and the different things (that we know of) that tend to make each one seem less likely. To me though, the only scenario that explains everything is BDI. I believe it was his actions that caused her death, and the parents staged the elaborate cover up to hide what actually happened. What (to you) doesn't make sense about it?
     
  11. otg

    otg Reports of my death are greatly exagerated... but

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    There are different opinions of the number and order of the accepted steps of grief (stages of emotion that lead to an eventual recovery from loss), but anger is certainly one of the steps in (I think) nearly all of them. The most universally accepted model was developed by Elisabeth Kübler-Ross. Her 5-step model is referred to by its acronym DABDA (Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance).

    Of course, the R's had more than just a death in the family to deal with. They also had to deal with the fact that one of them caused it.
     
  12. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    yep,I mentioned this long ago too....they didn't go through a normal grieving process....they went straight to acceptance! (CNN few days after the BRUTAL murder of their child)...one of the biggest red flags for me...we're not angry,we want to move on...WTH?
     
  13. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    well,dunno where to start...
    one thing would be....there are a lot of red flags pointing to JR...most of the times I think he was more than just a stager...thats why I keep swinging between JR and BDI....

    another thing that you mentioned above....their behavior....if BDI alone (and I mean the killing and possible prior abuse)...okay,they covered up for him BUT you would still see PAIN and GUILT and GRIEF...i mean,if BDI,they didn't mean for ANY of this to happen,they would be DEVASTATED that she died!!!but no,she's in a better place,let's move on....this is one of the things that made me think maybe it's more than BDI alone+parents just covering up.....

    are such type of people (selfish,self-centered,spoiled,you name it) really willing to go TO JAIL only because the 9year old lost it and it's too shameful to admit they didn't raise him well?

    if BDI wasn't it a huge risk to leave him alone with FW?(before being able to coach him well)....BR being sent to the Whites is one of the things that IMO points to someone else did it scenario and he wasn't even a witness...
     
  14. midwest mama

    midwest mama Active Member

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    BBM. ITA. Very, very good points.
     
  15. otg

    otg Reports of my death are greatly exagerated... but

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    Agreed. There are red flags all over the place pointing to each of them: PR’s “chemo brain” (believe me -- it’s real and it happens), her feeling of superiority over others, her living vicariously through JB, her reported (and demonstrated) temper. JR’s pride (arguably, deserved), his questionable placement of a picture of Melinda, his (and PR’s) performance in the CNN interview just days after JB’s death as well as subsequent “interviews” on TV, the fact that in most cases of familial sexual abuse it’s the adult male who is the perpetrator. (I don’t feel I need to go into all the red flags with BR -- James Kolar has done more to shed light on that than I ever could.)


    Yes, it would be devastating for anyone to lose a child. Were that the only tragic situation they had to deal with, I imagine they would have behaved very differently. But imagine having to deal with the emotion of that, while at the same time being concerned with the possibility of losing the only other child between JR and PR remaining (and I don’t buy the idea that they knew that night that BR was just a few weeks shy of being held criminally responsible). Imagine also that neither of them would want to have to deal with it being known publicly that their ~10 y.o. son had sexually molested (actually, “assaulted” would be the more correct term) and killed his 6 y.o. sister. Oh, the shame of it in PR’s social circle. Oh, the humiliation to JR whenever he would meet a new prospective client for his budding, billion dollar company and they would say, “Ramsey... John Ramsey... Where have I heard that name? Oh, yeah, aren’t you the guy whose son...”

    People can do unbelievable things when they feel like they are doing something for someone else -- even under tremendous stress and even grief. For the sake of their only living child, could they lie to police? Could they pretend to be the victims? Could they take a chance on their being smart enough to fool the BPD by manipulating the crime scene? Would they be willing to take a chance on going to jail if the chance taken might save BR from being institutionalized? (I say yes to all, but that’s just me.)



    Okay, I hear you, and I’ve heard this before. Here’s the thing... Everything that happened during that period of time was a series of choices, regardless of who you might think is responsible.

    Maybe JR or PR heard the kids up at some point during the night (just for the sake of argument). So the choice is: Should I get up and scold them and make them go to bed, or should I get some sleep and let them play until they get tired and go to bed? After all, they can sleep on the plane tomorrow during the trip to Charlevoix.

    Maybe after being awakened in the middle of the night to find their daughter dead with blood between her legs (I apologize for the graphic description), they had the choice between calling the police immediately and reporting it, or trying to throw the blame on someone else.

    Maybe after making that decision, another choice was between taking the body out of the house and dumping it somewhere to be found later, or hiding it in some obscure location within the house until the police had taken their report and left. When it looked like the BPD would never leave, the choice was to continue twiddling their thumbs and putting on a charade, or “finding” the body and contaminate the dead body with theirs so any trace fibers would have to be discounted.

    But sending BR to the Whites’... Now there is a dilemma. What to do, what to do? It’s getting late in the morning, and the Whites knew BR was an early riser, but he’s still upstairs sleeping (supposedly) -- with all the commotion going on in the house yet. And if they wake him and bring him downstairs, he might slip and say something in front of the police that would blow the lid on everything. So the choice is to take a chance on that, or send him away from the police to a friendly location with less people and hope he remembers that you told him not to say a word to anyone about what happened. Maybe a quick word to FW reminding him that BR has no idea what happened, so please don’t say anything about it to him or question him about it -- wait until you (JR) have a chance to explain it to him.

    You see, this whole thing about sending BR off to the White house is something that makes me think even more that this is what they were thinking by sending him away. It came down to a choice between taking a chance on leaving him there, or sending him away from investigators. And then to think that he would just stroll nonchalantly through the crowd of people (including police) in his house without so much as a question (and you know that everyone there would have stopped talking and looked at him as he went through) like maybe, “What are all these people doing here?” or “What’s with the police in the kitchen?” or “Why aren’t we going to Charlevoix?” or maybe even “Where’s JonnieB?”. To me that whole thing just screams out about what actually happened.


    Throughout our lives, we are faced with choices. We each make the choice that we feel is best at the time. Sometimes we have to weigh the odds of likely vs. unlikely against good outcome vs. bad outcome. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. But we each make choices and have to learn to live with the consequences of our decisions. Not many people would have made the decisions JR and PR made that night. But once they chose to alter the evidence of what happened that night, they were forever committed to the lie and had to live with the consequences, and they will both carry it to their graves. (Of course, one already has.) Unfortunately perhaps, BR will have to live with their choices for the rest of his life too, and I do have sympathy for him. I don’t think he’s a monster.
     
  16. Darlene733510

    Darlene733510 Active Member

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    I think that when they sent BR to Fleet's house the R's just thought about getting him out of the way, before the body was brought from the basement.
    What I wonder, is what might BF have told the Whites, or their children? Maybe that is why FW was so mad. Maybe that is why the R's turned against the Whites, even to the point of suggesting that they could be suspects. Maybe that is why the Whites have kept quiet all these years - because of BR's age they felt nothing could be done, even if the R's did the staging to protect their Son.
     
  17. questfortrue

    questfortrue Member

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    OTG,
    I mean this with the utmost respect for your views: Your post is very compassionate, and it’s not as though you are excusing anyone.

    If BDI (and I like others have bounced between the 3 of them as perpetrators), I wish I could be as compassionate in regards to PR and JR choices for their son.

    But observing this from an outside window, I see them leading the authorities on a $2,000,000+ chase in order to protect a family member who had, and who knows, may yet have, some kind of “anti-social personality disorder,” moo

    It also is repugnant that they sued Globe Magazine and settled out of court over Globe’s accusation of BR. But that’s me. It is still a dead little girl and they are making money suing over something that the Globe may have had right. If BDI, and the truth ever had come out, then a further consequence might have been to be sued by some of the people/entities they threw under the bus. That would not have set too well with JR’s money management.

    My personal reactions to the R’s decisions aside, you’ve summarized and described so well how far their choices took them. All this JMHO.
     
  18. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    so Kolar wanted to present his case back in 2006 to Kane and was thinking of a new grand jury....is this still possible?
    cause if Beckner slammed the door in his face back then I don't imagine he is doing much right now re this case,he's not the type who's willing to open this kind of can of worms...
     
  19. eileenhawkeye

    eileenhawkeye Active Member

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    When in 2006 was that? Before or after JMK?
     
  20. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    after.......october 2006

    letter to Lacy
     
  21. midwest mama

    midwest mama Active Member

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    Beckner's history:

    Mark Beckner has been the City of Boulder's Chief of Police since 1998. Beckner joined the Boulder Police Department in June 1978. His career with the Boulder Police Department is highlighted below:

    (1978 -1981) Officer in department

    (1981 -1983) Detective Division - handled property crimes

    (1983) Promoted to Sergeant

    (1983 -1991) Patrol Division - involved in tactical field training; served as supervisor of the Crime Scene Investigator program

    (1985-86) in charge of the tactical patrol team, handling undercover investigations, bank robberies, criminal trespass cases, drug crimes, and burglaries
    (1987-89) supervisor of the Liquor Code Enforcement Team
    (1989-91) traffic supervisor (January 1991-October 1991)
    (1991 -1994) Internal Affairs Investigator

    (1991 -1994) Professional Standards Unit Supervisor in charge of all internal affairs investigations

    (1994 - 1997) Promoted to Commander and assigned to Patrol as Commander of Watch II. Also assigned as Commander of the SWAT Team.

    (1997) Assigned to take over Command of the JonBenet Ramsey investigation.

    (1998) Assigned to Commander of the entire Detective Division

    (June 1998) Promoted to Chief of Police

    Beckner has a master's degree in Criminal Justice Administration from the University of Colorado in Denver.

    In addition to his long career with the city, Beckner has experience in hostage negotiation, training on a variety of police topics and is a published author on police topics.

    And also, Ferris State University - Location: Big Rapids, MICHIGAN
    Bachelor's, Criminal Justice
    1976 – 1978
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Who would be the person 'assigning' Beckner his positions?
    It is uncanny that he was a student in Michigan, of all states.

    It seems Chief Beckner certainly knew his way in (Internal Affairs) and around the Department prior to being assigned to take over the JBR case. Why would JB's case be such a can of worms............???
     

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