Question about SARS

Discussion in 'Kyron Horman' started by cluciano63, Nov 10, 2010.

  1. cluciano63

    cluciano63 Well-Known Member

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    Question for professional searchers, if anyone sees this.

    After watching 48 Hours on Amber's case last week, I noted that Amber's mom hired her own search team of dogs, and that the dogs picked up Amber's scent after 6 months, and led the handlers all the way to the Indian land, within a half mile of where she was found 6 months later. (this was several miles from where she was taken, 15 miles I think they said.)

    I always thought that Kyron could not be traced at all because he was taken into a car right in the Skyline lot, yet these dogs led the way onto a freeway, off an exit and more.

    Have you heard of this before and wonder why they don't try it with Kyron?
     
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  3. Tink56

    Tink56 Member

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    I'm not a SARS expert, but I did exchange PM's with Sarx at the time the dogs were being discussed on the forum. He seemed to feel that locating a scent after six months was HIGHLY unlikely.

    Actually this was a coincidence of sorts IMO. I live in the area and the "wonder dogs" did not even take the same route as JG. The dogs indicated that Amber was at the library in Pala (reservation). The handlers even insisted that the member of the tribe "knew" something, but seemed unwilling to share IIRC.

    The grandmother hired the dogs, against the wishes of Mo and Kerry, IIRC, also. I'll try to add a link or two. There was also a long discussion about the dogs on the Chelsea and Amber threads.

    BBM

    I tried to do a search for "Sarx" and Amber Dubois, but wasn't able to come up with anything right away...
     
  4. JBean

    JBean Retired WS Administrator

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  5. GrainneDhu

    GrainneDhu Verified Expert

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    I am not an expert but I spotted a few inconsistencies just based on the show.

    For one thing, towards the end of the show, when Amber's mother had a chance to question John Gardner, she found out that Gardner abducted Amber from a side street, one that Amber did not normally use in going to school. That's how Gardner was able to abduct her without witnesses; the eyewitness reports placing Amber near the school driveway were mistaken.

    The dogs appeared to follow Amber's usual route to school. Ooops! That says to me that the dogs were following cues from the handlers rather than following scent.

    Both various LE agencies and the military have done a lot of testing to see if dogs can follow humans in cars. The results I am familiar with go back to the 90s, so I'm not exactly up to date. At that time, though, the verdict was mixed. Dogs can sometimes follow scent from a human in a car but it is heavily dependent on variables. Older cars are more likely to be followed, probably because they are not as airtight as newer models (more dents and bangs, door gaskets worn out or torn, etc).

    The vehicle they showed, implying it was either Gardner's or one similar, was quite new and looked to be in very good condition. I wouldn't expect it to leak a lot of air. Gardner's testimony was that he rolled the window down initially, which suggests electric windows. Considering the risk of the victim screaming, I doubt he left the windows down while transporting her.

    It was fairly clear that Amber was not located near her home because that entire area was searched thoroughly. The logical places would be outside that initial radius and the reservation, with its abundance of land, small roads and pull offs, would be a good guess.

    Dogs are really, really good at reading their handler's body language and going what the handler wants, rather than where the evidence (scent) leads them.

    There is an awful lot of handler error that goes on with handlers of scent dogs.

    That particular case makes me think that it was similar to cases "solved" by psychics; they got a few results that were kinda close to what really happened, so the handlers decided they were accurate.
     
  6. mmmagique

    mmmagique Deliver us from evil

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    I really wish something would bring Kyron home.
    Search dogs.
    Psychics.
    Guilty conscience.
    God.
    Luck.
    Good Sleuthing.
    An angel.
    Anything. Just...anything.
     
  7. JBean

    JBean Retired WS Administrator

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    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97380"]Dogs - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
     
  8. grandmaj

    grandmaj Former Member

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    We need to stay on topic here and how this relates to Kyron please.
     
  9. txsvicki

    txsvicki Active Member

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    Kyron may have left the school in a vehicle, but what if he was taken back to the home or near the home. I think the ravines all around the home and surrounding properties should be thoroughly searched with people, dogs, whatever it takes to search every bit.
     
  10. cluciano63

    cluciano63 Well-Known Member

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    If this thread was not appropriate, I apologize and please delete it.
     
  11. mmmagique

    mmmagique Deliver us from evil

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    I didn't find it inappropriate.
    Perhaps my answer was, Idk.
    I really wish they would have search dogs search VERY close to the school, and VERY close to the house.
    I don't know if it's too late now, but he really needs to be found.
     
  12. GrainneDhu

    GrainneDhu Verified Expert

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    As I recall from the early media coverage (first two weeks), they did have search dogs covering the area around the school very intensively.

    Other media reports have referred to multiple searches, with dogs, around the Sheltered Nook home.

    My guess is that Kyron is probably not within one mile of either the school or his home but probably not more than ten miles from either. This is strictly a guess, though.

    As I recall, someone mentioned a large park or wilderness area about five miles away. That's one place I'd be really curious about.
     
  13. sarx

    sarx Verified Expert/Professional in SAR and K9SAR

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    Just found this and thought I might be able to "help". Well, maybe not help but I can answer the question at hand.
    There is nobody I know that would put their name on a 6 month old trail. I would not trust anyone if they said they would. True, dogs were brought in by the Grandmother in Amber's case, they were dogs for hire as nobody else would have done it. I am sure that there are handlers out there that could be paid to do a search for Kyron (trailing), but in my professional opinion this is bordering on criminal. At the bare minimum it is seriously taking advantage of people and their money.
    Yes, dogs can be affected by their handlers, they can be pulled on and off of a trail either by accident or on purpose.
    Dogs, just like everything else have their limits and a six month old trail is way past their limit! Hope that helps.
     
  14. loves2bmom

    loves2bmom New Member

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    Thanks for answering SARX. I can't remember what your area of expertise is but do you know if divers can search all year round in cold (but not frozen) water? Is there a limit to how low the temps can go?
     
  15. sarx

    sarx Verified Expert/Professional in SAR and K9SAR

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    I am not a SAR diver, but do have a close friend who is and have worked with them several times. They are really only limited by the gear they have. Searches take place in frozen waters where they have to break through the ice to get in regularly. So, yes, they can work in cold waters, how long they stay down will be affected though.
     
  16. Oriah

    Oriah Verified Expert

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    Want to stay on topic (Kyron) but also want to answer this question re: SAR dogs from a professional standpoint. I am on the other side of the country, but I too do not know any professional dog handler that would put their name on a 6 month trail.

    It doesn't hold in court, even if the MP is found, because defense attorneys rip the stats on these trails to shreds. So it ends up being a worthless claim (whether true or not) to the justice system.
    (I am verified SAR, fwiw.)

    HTH.
     
  17. Oriah

    Oriah Verified Expert

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    I am not a SAR diver either, but we have worked with Navy and Special Forces divers on certain cases. IMO, there are divers available for virtually all sorts of water-based conditions. Ice, freezing temps, murk- you name it- usually not a problem with the right equipment and the right divers. If divers need to make a judgement call based on safety of the divers (such as dangerous obstructions underwater, etc.) they will break, and re-evaluate the situation.

    HTH.
     
  18. sarx

    sarx Verified Expert/Professional in SAR and K9SAR

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    A big part of the problem with "working" a six month old trail, like Kyron's is that you have a ton of information going in and with experience you can look at all of the information and quite possibly get a really good feel for where the MP is or may be. True, sometimes you do end up taking your dogs to that place, it really is not is a find by the dogs, but by you. They didn't work the scent trail, you worked the paper trail. And while yes, the MP is found, calling this a "successful find" by the dogs is false. To top it off, as Oriah said, it will not hold in court, which is also of great importance. While we as SAR always want to find the MP, preserving, protecting and adding to the prosecution's case is also very important as the person who did the crime needs to be accountable for it.
     
  19. cluciano63

    cluciano63 Well-Known Member

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    So do you think it was just a coincidence that the dogs hired by Amber's mom came so close to where Amber was later found? I can't see how the handlers would have any reason to lead the dogs to that spot?
     
  20. sarx

    sarx Verified Expert/Professional in SAR and K9SAR

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    Editing, this is Kyron's thread, sorry!
     
  21. GrainneDhu

    GrainneDhu Verified Expert

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    Look at their methodology.

    They "followed" Amber's trail to the high school (even though we now know that she did not follow that route and did not make it to the school that day).

    Then they followed the dogs to the nearby interstate. Well, it was pretty clear that Amber was not located in the rather suburban setting immediately around the school, so where would she likely have gone from there? I'd vote the interstate.

    They drove up the interstate and stopped at each exit to let the dogs "investigate." At an exit about 15 miles up the road, they said the dogs reacted. It's known that most abductors stick pretty close to familiar ground, so as they got further and further up the interstate, the handlers would be expecting a hit. The further they went, the more the handlers would be expecting a hit.

    From there, they followed the road. Again, that's what I'd expect. I wouldn't expect an adbductor to suddenly get out of their car along a road during the daytime and start walking their victim off into the desert or wherever. I'd be looking for a place where seeing a car parked would look natural and expected.

    For instance, at a pull-off by a bluff where people might stop to look at the scenery, etc (which is what Gardner actually did).

    Or in a parking lot at a library (which is where the dogs supposedly hit).

    Yeah, I believe it was just a coincidence, probably based on generalisations about perpetrator behaviour.

    All this is why I would not want Kyron's family to waste their time and financial resources on any dog handler who claimed their dog could trail Kyron from 4 June.
     

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