Questions you'd like answers to...

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Bev, Sep 7, 2006.

  1. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    FY1234,
    Death Of Innocence by Patsy and John Ramsey, Excerpt

    Police Files - National Enquirer, Excerpt
    JonBenet Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation by Steve Thomas
    June 1998 BPD Patsy Interview Excerpt
    They are running through the crime-scene photos with Patsy

    JonBenet Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation by Steve Thomas

    JonBenet Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation by Steve Thomas
    JonBenet Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation by Steve Thomas
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    Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
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  2. archieil

    archieil On Time Out

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    I will reverse my answer so it is more "official"

    can you give all timelines your bedwetting took place?

    how do you imagine the time of events in this situation?

    when the bedwetting happened and what happened earlier/later and why you do not believe in official results of autopsies or other known facts.
     
  3. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Userid,
    If the red turtleneck was a catalyst for JonBenet's death and Patsy redressed JonBenet in the white gap top, then why ever advance this information, she knew how important it was to hide this?

    i.e. why would Patsy just not leave JonBenet in the red turtleneck since she is going to claim she redressed JonBenet in the long underwear, so where is the percentage in confusing us all with a redundant change into the white gap top?

    IMO different people redressed JonBenet at different times then others forgot who did what, where and when?

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  4. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

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    There's this case currently in the States where a husband murdered his wife and 2 children. After the morning when he buried them, he was on TV imploring them to come home. In this interview, he admitted that he and his wife had an "emotional conversation, I'll just leave it at that" the last time he saw her. My point is, your question applies to this situation too: why would he volunteer this information? Of course, I can't say why PR would feel she needed to volunteer the fact that there was some sort of argument/confrontation (i.e. emotional conversation), but she did, just like the husband. Perhaps she thought that this information would be volunteered by BR? Or JR? So she wanted to get "ahead of it" so to speak? Your guess is as good as mine.
     
  5. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Userid,
    BBM: That's my point, so why bother compounding an unknown by redressing JonBenet in the White Gap Top?


    Patsy does not need to redress JonBenet in the White Gap Top, she can leave her wearing the Red Turleneck, since she is going to say she redressed JonBenet in the long underwear.

    i.e. Patsy is using the Tiff or argument to explain why the Red Turleneck is lying balled-up on the bathroom counter?

    Looks like Patsy is explaining away someone elses staging with her own invented causes, leaving us to infer Patsy or JonBenet placed it there?

    If the Red Turleneck is just incidental crime-scene artifact then Patsy can just ignore it, just as she ignores all JonBenet's dolls and toys lying scattered on her bedroom floor.

    In fact when Patsy allegedly removed the Red Turleneck from JonBenet she has the option of putting it back in JonBenet's Turleneck drawer in the bathroom, see LHP's remarks, thereby sidestepping any need for a Tiff?

    Occam says Patsy dressed JonBenet in the Red Turleneck then when the crime-scene was revised to that of a Kidnapping the White Gap Top was put back on to match the straight to bed version of events?

    Columbo says JonBenet was completely naked in her own bedroom and that her killer redressed her there, e.g. long underwear, size-12 underwear, Red Turleneck?

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  6. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

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    I'm not really following you in all honesty.

    If the red turtleneck was "wet," and it was removed before JBR was attacked (i.e. it was the catalyst for the attack), why would PR (or whoever) redress her in the turtleneck? She wouldn't use the garment simply because it was wet; and she would have used what JBR ended up wearing in order for her to not be naked (a motherly instinct, as was wrapping her in the blankets).
     
  7. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Userid,
    Steve Thomas never produced forensic evidence to back up the claim that the Red Turtleneck was wet, its just an assumption made by Steve Thomas in his PDI theory.

    I refer to a catalyst, since I think there might be other factors present.

    Meaning the Red Turtleneck could have been put back in its drawer in JonBenet's bathroom, then there is no need to cite a Tiff, etc.

    Patsy can leave JonBenet in the Red Turtleneck as she is going say she put the long underwear on JonBenet, but that does not happen, its the white gap top that is put on JonBenet.

    Is it not obvious that the person who assaulted JonBenet then redressed her, say in the long underwear, size-12's, and Red Turtleneck then afterwards this was revised to include the White Gap Top?

    Patsy is offering an after the fact explanation as to why the Red Turtleneck is lying on the counter in her bathroom, but this need not be a truthful account.

    If you consider the size-12 underwear, the Red Turtleneck and the Long Underwear and that JonBenet wore none of these items to the White's party, why should the addition of the White Gap Top, alone, confirm Patsy's version of events, e.g. redressing JonBenet?

    Patsy might simply be offering explanations that cover up another family members involvement.

    If the case is PDI then Patsy is in the business of crime-scene staging and she would like it to look realistic and compelling.

    A scene resembling Sleeping Beauty in the manner of a pageant would not cut it, as JonBenet has been violently assaulted, hence the need to pose JonBenet naked from the waist down as envisaged by Columbo

    In the PDI Patsy did not do this, allegedly, she redressed and normalized JonBenet, leaving her own forensic markers all over the wine-cellar crime-scene thereby invalidating her original objective, i.e to hide her involvement in her daughters death.

    All of which really means the case is not PDI.


    Although there has been a crime-scene staging, JonBenet's death is self evident, it cannot be hidden, but what was attempted to be masked was that she was sexually assaulted!

    I do not think Patsy was abusing JonBenet.

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  8. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

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    All due respect, I think you're making this way more complicated than it needs to be.

    Can you just answer the following question directly as opposed to using multiple 2 sentence paragraphs about 6 or 7 different subjects? I'm not trying to be snooty -- I really am trying to follow you, but you're a bit all over the place. Here is the question: so you're saying the JBR was "re-dressed" (after being attacked) twice that night? Once by BR (who dressed her in the red turtleneck), then once by JR (who dressed her in the white top). Is that the jist of what you're getting at?

    Forget about whether it's PDI or BDI for a second, and just focus on your argument about the red turtleneck.
     
  9. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Userid,

    Patsy's initial account to officers was that JonBenet was put to bed wearing the Red Turtleneck, later revised to the White Gap Top.

    Yes I'm speculating that the Red Turtlenck played a role, i.e. that JonBenet was redressed in it by the person who assaulted her, then someone else changed it for the White Gap Top?

    The size-12 underwear, long underwear and the White Gap Top are difficult to reconcile, whereas the size-12 underwear, long underwear and the Red Turtleneck seem of a kind.

    In any PDI Patsy has the option of leaving JonBenet wearing the Red Turtleneck or putting the Red Turtleneck back in its drawer or just tossing it in the dirty washing basket, it does not need to be left lying on the bathroom counter.

    The reason for the sentence count is to show that Patsy's account of redressing JonBenet might be false and that she is covering for another family member.
     
  10. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

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    Okay, thanks -- I think I understand now.

    I'm unsure that it's any easier to reconcile that the red turtleneck would go with the bloomies and the long underwear. That is just as odd to me -- odder even.

    Why would BR redress her at all, let alone in this specific red turtleneck (that PR was wearing)? Why would JR redress her in the white gap top? It just doesn't make much sense to me.

    PR was wearing the red turtleneck of hers; JBR's turtleneck was found on the bathroom counter (for whatever reason -- nevertheless, it was there). Was it mere coincidence that BR picked the very sweater that his mom was also wearing? Was it purposeful, and if so, why?

    Why would he use a sweater of JBR's, but use his own longjohns? He obviously knew where to find the turtleneck, so it's safe to assume he knew where he clothes were located -- so why wouldn't he just use one of her pajama pants?

    Where you and I differ is that, I don't believe that JBR was redressed twice after her attack that night. I suppose anything is possible, but there's really no evidence of that at all.

    Also consider this: even if the red turtleneck was "dry," it would still be removed all the same if she had wet the bed. I think any parent would do that, just in case it did get wet somewhere; you wouldn't just change her below the waist.

    Lastly: if she was redressed twice, and the second re-dresser changed her top from the turtleneck to the white top, why wouldn't he (JR) also change everything (i.e. her pants and underwear)? There would be zero reason to only change her top.
     
  11. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Userid,

    I agree, but we have Patsy saying Jonbenet was put to bed in the Red Turtleneck then saying they argued over it earlier, could be Patsy said to JonBenet put the Red Turleneck on for an early rising tomorrow?

    Because he is enacting a childish attempt at staging, e.g. minimizing the damage, so to speak.

    JR or PR redress JonBenet in the White Top to match their version of events?

    They should really remove the size-12's and long underwear but with the blood and urine staining likely thought where do we put them?

    This is indirect evidence for more than one redressing event as the size-6 underwear is presumably missing, replaced by the size-12's?

    Was it mere coincidence, yes it might be, so why does Patsy have to tell us all about the Tiff, silence would be sufficient.

    He might use the Red Turtleneck as it was to hand discarded earlier by JonBenet?

    He might journey down to the basement, navigating by flashlight, to fetch the Wednesday size-12's?

    He might use his Long Underwear as they are also to hand or he has selected them specifically as they hide JonBenet from the waist down?

    He might hide the remaining size-12's and the Wednesday pair of size-6 Bloomingdales somewhere in his bedroom?

    You could be right but why does Patsy say JonBenet was put to bed wearing the Red Turtleneck?

    Sure, so then it could be put back into JonBenet's Turtleneck drawer in her bathroom?

    Because her underwear are blood-stained and the long underwear urine-stained, by putting on the White Gap Top Patsy can claim the redressing sequence was reversed, e.g. Size-12's, White Gap Top with Patsy just adding the long underwear?

    The White Gap Top allows Patsy to explain away long underwear, but not as you know the size-12's, suggesting more than one person redressed JonBenet, and sychronises with the Ramsey Version of Events, i.e. straight to bed.

    The parents restaged the crime-scene to edit BR out as much as possible, therefore Patsy takes responsibility for the long underwear and the White Gap Top, and suggests by default that JonBenet dressed herself in the size-12's.


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  12. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

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    If BR used the red turtleneck, PR would have never brought it up at all.

    I respect your thoughts but I disagree with your reasoning as to why BR would use the red turtleneck and why the parents would change it but not her bottom attire. I just think you give way too much credit for a nine year old boy to even realize what "staging" is. Also, you're omitting the fact that she was clearly "wiped down," which most likely occurred by the second re-dresser in your scenario -- and that towel was never found all the same -- so no, if the towel wasn't a concern, the bottoms and/or particularly the underwear wouldn't be either (as far as disposal). It just doesn't add up for me.
     
  13. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Userid,
    We call it staging, to BR he is just trying hide whatever took place.

    Nope, I've already cited that, suggesting it was JR, e.g. see Coroner Meyers remarks and BPD's claim regarding Israeli fibers found on JonBenet's pubic area.

    JonBenet might have been wiped down using toilet-roll, which was flushed, the old size-6 underwear, or anything easily washable in the sink?

    That's fine but it does not invalidate a BDI, since you can still have one redressing from the waist down leaving JonBenet in her White Gap Top?

    Your critique regarding the bottom attire is precisely why I cannot see either JR or PR deciding to stage a crime-scene then dressing JonBenet in the size-12's and Burke's long johns, that does not add up.

    Since we were not there, obviously we are missing some crucial details, yet it looks like both parents staged the wine-cellar crime-scene, the GJ levelled charges of assisting an offender at both parents, with the sexual assault, its either JR or BR?

    IMO the staging is too amateurish for it to be soley that of a parent, unless you wish to say Patsy is staging BR into the death of JonBenet via the use of his longjohns?

    1. Patsy says she supplied the size-12's to JonBenet.

    2. Patsy says she redressed JonBenet in Burke's longjohns.

    3. Patsy says she left JonBenet wearing the White Gap Top.

    The Pink Barbie Nightgown is bloodstained as is JonBenet's size-12 underwear, how come the forensic transfer?


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  14. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

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    There's no way a toilet roll could have been used -- that's trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Flimsy tiny toilet-paper remnants would have been left behind. You couldn't flush an entire toilet paper roll down the toilet without it clogging (even if you did it in stages), etc.

    If JR was the one who wiped her down (I can agree with this one point), again, there would have been absolutely no reason why he wouldn't have changed the underwear and long-johns in order to better stage a more cohesive story. The more plausible scenario would have been to simply keep everything (including the red turtleneck, as in your scenario) on her. The red turtleneck would have been the last item of clothing he would have worried about (in relation to the oversized underwear and the boys' long johns), if his concern was changing the clothing -- yet in your scenario, this is the only thing he changes? That doesn't make much sense.
     
  15. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Userid,

    Lets assume we can agree upon:

    1. Patsy says she supplied the size-12's to JonBenet.

    2. Patsy says she redressed JonBenet in Burke's longjohns.

    3. Patsy says she left JonBenet wearing the White Gap Top.

    4. The Pink Barbie Nightgown is bloodstained as is JonBenet's size-12 underwear.

    5. John wiped JonBenet down, as per Coroner Meyer's verbatim remarks.


    I never said John was concerned with the clothing, only that I think he wiped JonBenet down, if this is correct then knowing John never opted to redress JonBenet, e.g. just pulled the size-12's down, then someone else possibly dressed JonBenet in the size-12's and longjohns.

    The reason for putting the White Gap Top back on JonBenet is so that Patsy can then claim to have redressed JonBenet in Burke's longjohns, but not the size-12's !

    Otherwise the Red Turtleneck is evidence that JonBenet was not put straight to bed.

    Bottom line is we know someone redressed JonBenet but was it Patsy as she claims, if so, then who dressed JonBenet in the size-12's?

    Suggesting there were two redressing events one with the size-12's and one with the longjohns?


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  16. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

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    Now I'm just more confused about your theory. You're saying JR wasn't concerned about the clothes, but that he re-dressed her out of the red turtleneck, in order for them to say PR put her to bed wearing the white top. That's contradictory. If he wasn't concerned, he wouldn't have bothered changing the red turtleneck; if he was concerned, he wouldn't have only changed the red turtleneck.

    I guess my overall point is: your theory falls apart based on the notion that JR would want to "correct" BR's re-dressing of JBR, but he (JR) only ends up changing the one item that BR actually got "right" so to speak (i.e. the red turtleneck). It's the one item that fits and belongs to her -- so why that would be JR's one and only "change" in the second re-dressing, before the other items, doesn't jive.

    JBR was not wearing the red turtleneck to the Whites, so no, it wouldn't have indicated that she was up all night had she been found wearing it; and would have easily been explained away that PR dressed her in the next day's clothes before bed to save time.
     
  17. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Userid,
    You are reading too much into it. All I'm saying is that the parents tweaked the crime-scene evidence hoping to minimize Burke's role.

    To this end JR wiped JonBenet down, Patsy put the White Gap Top on JonBenet and claimed to have redressed JonBenet in Burke's longjohns.

    As above the Red Turtleneck might be incidental, amd played no role?

    Also Patsy is claiming to have redressed JonBenet but not her size-12's, where she ignores the Pink Pajama Top in favor of the White Gap Top, yet goes for Burke's longjohns, and as we know the Pink Pajama bottoms are still missing along with the size-6 Bloomingdales.

    Are you buying Patsy's version of events?

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  18. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

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    The red turtleneck might be incidental. Then again, you can say that about anything.

    I don't buy the grand majority of PR's version of events, but do admit that, she may have been truthful about things that she felt would either be revealed by someone else or things that she deemed irrelevant.
     
  19. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Userid,
    I also assume Patsy will have been truthful about some stuff, she tells us what she does not know about, e.g. size-12's, the pineapple snack, also as an aside JonBenet's dressed ponytails.

    So if Patsy is staging herself out of killing JonBenet, she needs to account for the size-12's and pineapple snack, or just redress JonBenet with pajamas from her bathroom drawer, then machine wash the size-12's and Burke's longjohns then run them through the Tumble Drier, Job Done!

    She does not do any of the above and injects herself into the wine-cellar staging, whereas her fibers found in JonBenet's bedroom would be unremarkable.

    So the only reason I can think for Patsy claiming to redress JonBenet is to cover for another family member, e.g. JR or BR?

    The Grand Jury Counts corroborate that the parents are involved in the staging, and with JonBenet being sexually assaulted the case is either JDI or BDI?

    There is no smoking gun but it does point towards BDI with the parents covering for him?

    .
     
  20. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

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    No, I don't think it points to BDI. I was hoping for this to not devolve into BDI vs. PDI -- because we've been down this road a million times now -- but so be it. Just going to leave it at that, respectfully.
     
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