Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Bev, Sep 7, 2006.
"Your conclusions are incorrect in both cases."
From memory no. Nude doll I have never heard off.
The dolls are a subject on their own, you could devote two or three chapters of a book to them.
Short answer: the American Girl dolls were removed by Pam Paugh, and nobody has ever caught sight of the My Twinn Doll, despite folks on various forums scanning images and checking search lists.
Death of Innocence, page 3, Excerpt
The doll subject is complex, folks might confuse pictures of a semi-nude doll alleged to have been found in the wine-cellar, and married it up with the Barbie Nightgown, so its another explanation for the Barbie Nightgown.
The takeaway here should be that Patsy might have used the tape and cord from an American Girl Doll to create the wine-cellar crime-scene, add in that one was ordered to Access Graphic, allegedly by JR to confuse investigators with similar but distinct materials?
The American Girl Doll theory is good, just that some forensics do not match up, yet it played a role, to date nobody knows why?
Hint: why would Patsy order a doll to Johns Company, all answers, on a postcard, to the Ramsey Foundation, Colorado, USA.
Had to dig around for this, but she definitely had a life-sized doll. Which is strongest RDI evidence?
Also, this: Pink Barbie Nightgown
Now, I could have sworn I remember reading a detective's shock when searching the house and finding the doll unclothed; how it was jarring to discover that, given the circumstance. I'll try to dig that up, but I've been trying, to no avail yet.
I understand that the barbie nightgown was not the outfit of the doll all the same.
The Life Size Barbie Doll has never really been an issue. JR's perverted remark is obviously measured and intentional, e.g. smoke and mirrors as usual.
JonBenet had lots of dolls, took them to pageants to play with the other kids. I'll bet JR has destroyed the Life Size My Twinn Doll, how much would that be worth on ebay?
You might be right about the unclothed doll, from memory I remember something about JonBenet making clothes for her Barbie Doll, could be in an interview, thereby explaining why the doll has no clothes.
If I made a movie on this case the Life Size My Twinn Doll and the American Girl Doll would get a prominent role, some think it was JonBenet's dislike of the My Twinn Doll that caused the tiff between her and Patsy and not what she wore to the White's?
It’s in Linda Arndt’s report.
“I noticed there was a life size Barbie doll standing next to the north window. The doll was not clothed.”
The Misdirection and Deception of the DNA
nightgown approx 28 inches in length?
do you think the five stains on the front of the gown are from a bloodied hand grasping it?
Why the diagonal pattern?
Was the garment folded?
Seems as if some stains are above the waist?
Girls 4-8 Barbie Dorm Nightgown & Doll Nightgown
Size Height Weight Chest Hips
4 39-41.5" 33-36 lbs. 22" 23"
5 42-44.5" 37-42 lbs. 23" 24"
6/6x 45-46.5" 43-48 lbs. 24" 25"
JonBenet Ramsey Case Encyclopedia / The Body
autopsy: "Height/Weight. "The unembalmed, well developed nourished caucasian female body measures 47 inches in length and weighs an estimated 45 pounds."
They could be as in wiping your hand clean?
Quite likely or simply rolled or balled up?
OK for those that know the case the most obvious explanation for the bloodstains is that JonBenet's pelvic region was lying on the Barbie Nightgown? This suggests the bloodstains were the result of a sexual assault or staging?
If a person has a bloodstained hand they will know not to touch stuff at a crime-scene, particularly if it is being staged?
Also if the bloodstains were transferred via someones hand then at least one of those bloodstains will contain the owner of the hand's touch-dna.
Consider the paintbrush pieces and ligature have no bloodstains, suggesting the bleeding may precede the use of the painbrush?
Allowing the conclusion that the Barbie Nightgown was present when JonBenet was originally sexually assaulted?
An alternative explanation for the bloodstains on the Barbie Nightgown is the Nightgown was used to wipe JonBenet down, as per Coroner Meyer's remarks:
1996-12-29: Search Warrant 755 15 Street, Boulder, Colorado
Applying Occam's principal the bloodstains were probably deposited because the Barbie Nightgown was used to wipe JonBenet down?
Using forensic procedures it should be possible to decide between the various explanations as each one will offer a different chemical signtaure, e.g. touch-dna?
Thanks for the feedback, UK.
This makes a lot of sense. I wonder though, to be wiped clean, would the cloth used need to be wet?
From the autopsy: "...A minimal amount of semiliquid thin watery red fluid is present in the vaginal vault"... What is this?? Water with blood in it or something else?
Its likely water from JonBenet being cleaned, but some have speculated its from a commercial feminine cleanser, others have related this to a punishment regime.
The other interpretation is its simply internal fluid colored by the presence of the blood?
A point to consider is that if JonBenet had been wearing the Barbie Nightgown when assaulted you might expect the bloodstains to be on the inside, towards the back, lower down, and they are not!
The case looks like its JDI, or BDI to me. The Ramsey household was dysfunctional, so who knows what was going on there? LHP the housekeeper said Patsy confided to her she detested John's requests for sex, so maybe his attention turned to JonBenet? Yet with JonBenet wearing Burke's longjohns and those size-12's its difficult to see why any parent would decide to stage JonBenet in them, as the intent in the staging is deflection away from the family, e.g. ransom note, intruder.
I seem to recall that the autopsy report stated her thighs and pubic area had evidence of being wiped with a cloth, and that dark blue fibers were found there. Her pink nightgown was nylon, I believe, and would be unlikely to shed dark fibers as described. JR had a navy terrycloth robe that was found in an unlikely place (in the den-where neighbors describe seeing a light on which had not been noticed ever before that night). I have not seen where that robe was ever tested for a forensic match to the fibers found on JB. I also recall PR saying she couldn't find both parts of JB's pink pajamas (one piece can be seen on her bed in the crime photos) so she pulled on what she could find. (BR's bottoms?) The lack of blood on the long johns seem to me to indicate that they had been removed for whatever activity caused the bleeding, then replaced as part of the staging to hide the sexual abuse. I do not think they realized that an autopsy would uncover the vaginal bruises and blood on the forchette/inside the vaginal vault, as these were internal and not apparent just from looking at her. There has long been speculation as to what happened to her original Day-Of-The Week panties in her original size (6-8). We do know that PR admitted buying the larger size 12 set for JB's older cousin. She said she "did not remember" whether she bought a set for JB as well. I can't believe she'd buy a set for JB's cousin and not get one for JB as well, but as they have never been found we don't know. We do know that the pair found on JB were size 12 and said "Wednesday" on the waistband. Christmas Day that year was on a Wednesday. These panties are packed in a plastic pouch or tube, and they are packed "in order" (with the Wednesday pair being in the middle of the pack and therefore had to be deliberately removed instead of just pulling the first pair out.We also know that the Rs sent a package with the remaining 6 pairs of size 12 panties to the investigators 5 years from the murder with a note that said they found them in a packing carton and thought they might be of help. No size 6-8 Day of the Week panties were ever found. So IF JB was wearing a Wednesday pair (JB could not read yet, so if it was decided that she would wear a Wednesday pair, it had to be PR who got them- too much of a coincidence that JB herself should have pulled out that pair from the middle of the pack. PR told police that all JB's panties were in her drawer, and that she probably put the size 12 in her drawer too. Yet- obviously this was not the case as she returned the remaining size 12s still in the original plastic package. Some theorize that JB's original size panties had been bloodied and were replaced with the identical pair (but in a different size) as part of the staging so that she would be found wearing what she wore that day. Whoever dressed her in those panties would not have been aware of the small drop of JB's own blood that apparently dripped into the crotch- and there was not enough blood to seep onto the long johns. If that is what happened, the remaining size 6-8 pairs had to have been disposed of. Theories range from being put in the golf bag found just outside the wineceller (and can be seen in crime photos) where she was found to being taken out in the Rs coat pockets, which were not searched when they left. I hold with the theory that they were put in the golf bag- JB specifically asked for that golf bag to be removed from the house by PR's sister when she did her unsupervised removal of items "for the funeral". Odd he would have asked for his golf bag days after his daughter's murder -in December in Colorado. And though he was planning to leave (flee) to warmer Atlanta, still odd he would have wanted his golf bag. Why not send it with the rest of the Rs things when the movers packed them?
Atlanta 2000 Patsy Interview, Excerpt
If Patsy had purchased two packs of size-12 underwear as suggested in the above interview, but Patsy cannot recall their size, e.g. Not Exactly, then 1. Patsy would not need to give JonBenet her niece's size-12 underwear; 2. There would be another unopened pack of size-12 underwear elsewhere in the house?
Atlanta 2000 Patsy Interview, Excerpt
So no size-12 underwear in JonBenet's underwear drawer, also a further search of the house turned up no size-12 underwear, suggesting Patsy only purchased one set of size-12 Bloomingdales underwear, and that the size she purchased for JonBenet must be size-6 Bloomindales underwear? To date BPD have never released the brand or Day Of The Week of the underwear taken from JonBenet's underwear drawer.
There are bloodstains on the Barbie Gown and on the size-12's, but none on the longjohns or White Gap Top, how come?
Suggesting the bloodstained items were at the same location or/and were in contact with each other or a common source, e.g. someone's hand?
Awesome insights, Dee and UKGuy!! (As always)!
That leads to what?
One obscure fact is that serological testing on John Ramsey’s BathRobe(43BAB)-revealed it had semen(seminal fluid)on it.
According to Schiller the bathrobe had been ruled out-
“Earlier in the case, the police had thought the fibers from the body came from John Ramsey’s bathrobe or Patsy’s black pants or from the blanket found near JonBenét or from the blanket that had been found inside the suitcase under the broken basement window. The fibers might also have come from JonBenét’s own clothes or from one of her stuffed animals. By now, however, all of those possibilities had been excluded, and the only logical explanation was that the fibers came from whatever had been used to wipe JonBenét or possibly from someone who might have rubbed up against her when she was unclothed, which allowed the fibers to find their way along her skin and eventually into the folds of her labia. In any event, the clothes worn by Patsy and John on Christmas would have to be compared with the fibers.”
There were a lot of these mysterious ‘dark fibers’ on JonBenét’s GAP shirt and elsewhere on her body.
SO here once again Patsy claims to have only been aware that JB's panties were too large for her and were size 12-14 by stating "she must have read it somewhere". Then goes on to say that all JB's panties (including the size 12 Bloomies, which she said JB must have seen had been purchased for her cousin and wanted for herself) had been placed in JB's panty drawer so she could "help herself to whatever was in there". Yet- 5 years later the Rs returned the remaining size 12s STILL IN THE PACKAGE to LE. AND no size 12 panties were ever found anywhere else in the house- panty drawer or elsewhere except the pair on JB when she was found. I don't recall whether the panties on JB were ever tested for detergent residue, indicating that they had been laundered previous to wearing. If they did not contain such residue, then they were taken new from that pack age that day. I cannot speak to Patsy's routine for her children's clothes, but as a mother (and most mothers I know) would certainly never put (especially underwear) on my child without laundering them first. The blood on the nightie is problematic for several reasons. We just can't say for sure she was wearing it when she was molested or killed- though blood getting on it in another way is unlikely. It has to be considered that she may have been wearing it- and then redressed in the white shirt and longjohns But we just don't know. Remember- dead bodies do not bruise or bleed- though blood can ooze for a short time if the wound is deep or large. Neither was the case here. Her head wound was a closed-scalp wound. Blood found only under the skin and only after autopsy. Bruising is the body's response to repairing an injury and is different from the livor mortis (which can look like bruising) that occurs after death.
Atlanta 2000 Patsy Interview, Excerpt
Patsy cannot remember and has no specific recollection of seeing JonBenet in the size-12's, i.e. ramnesia!
Yet BPD asked Patsy Do you have any recollection of ever washing any of the Bloomi panties?, get that plural, is that small talk, i.e. referring to the other underwear in her underwear drawer, or specifically Bloomingdales? Suggesting there were size-6 Bloomingdales in JonBenet's underwear drawer, it's quite likely that the size-12's were subjected to standard forensic analysis, so any detergent residue will have shown up up in the results. My money is them being clean on JonBenet, e.g. postmortem.
Well we know the source for the bloodstains, so either the blood was deposited during the initial assault or later as JonBenet was being cleaned up, e.g. Coroner Meyer's remarks about JonBenet being wiped down?
From Coroner Meyer's verbatim remarks the size-12's preceded Burke's longjohns, due to the absence of the bloodstains.
1996-12-29: Search Warrant 755 15 Street, Boulder, Colorado
The thing to note is that the staging mandates that JonBenet is put to bed wearing the White Gap Top, so a bloodstained Barbie Nightgown, need not be being removed due it being bloodstained. Once removed someone might have thought it will do for wiping JonBenet down?
I have never seen the "obscure fact" about John's bathrobe that you posted. Funny that piece of evidence was never discussed with John by LE, etc. Certainly fuels my JDI theory. Ick, just ick.