Ramesy's Damed if they do, Damed if they don't, or is there more than meets the eye?

[Details]

vengance against the killer isn't the first thing you think of, it's not your top priority as it is when trying to catch the kidnapper to find your child still alive - grief is the first priority, and your remaining family.


Ned: Hmmmm... how about a sense of helping other children who may be at risk by the hands of this murderer? Don't the Ramsey's have a duty to cooperate with police fully to help protect other innocent children?

Now John is threatening to leave the country?

When do the Ramsey's stop caring about themselves and start caring about their child and other children?

There's nothing they can do that would change that. Talking to police that only want to convict them will do nothing. They don't know who the killer is, so there's nothing they can do to help. The police were obviously not going to look at anyone else, and were pretty dirty in their tactics - they did all they could with the media to try to get priorities focused where they should be, looking at other suspects. As far as duty - I wouldn't ever dare say that to someone whose child has just been murdered, to suggest that their duty is to put their grieving on hold, set yourself up to go to jail for no reason, as your duty. And with police looking at the wrong suspect, your duty to other innocent children is not to cooperate with police, it's to fight to refocus them on the real perpetrator, not to indulge their fantasy that you did it, and talk to them until they can find something to twist to use against you, to waste even more resources that should be going to finding the real killer.

Wow - Ramsey seems very powerful - you think even now he can find the killer, he has more things to say that will find this intruder, and save other innocent children? It makes no sense. IMHO, you don't want him to leave because you believe he did it or one of the other Ramsey's did - that's the only way he could be of more use in the investigation, if he's hiding something. If he's told the truth all along, then his usefulness is done, and has been for a long time.

 

[wenchie]

When you compare the Klaus and the Walsh case to the Ramsey's and say well, these people put their child first and did a polygraph, interview, etc. and the Ramsey's didn't..... I see a big difference:
This is a business man who is used to having other people handle things for him....like lawyers and PR firms. The case got so huge so fast it was too much for any family to handle.....media calling all day in, day out. They NEEDED a PR firm. This is what wealthy business men and women do when publicity gets out of control. They didn't care about their name, they needed someone who could handle the media in a professional manner.
The Klaus family and the Walsh family (at the time) were not exceedingly wealthy as the Ramsey's were.
John Walsh had a good job in the hotel industry but he wasn't a millionaire. It's a little different for that reason. Millionaires handle these matters differently. They are advised by lawyers daily and they TAKE THEIR ADVICE! The first thing a lawyer will tell you is that a polygraph is not admissable in court and it could be used against you to have LE looking solely at you as the perpetrator. If I were in their shoes and suspected that LE might try to pin the crime on me as a parent I would heed their advice too. Have you seen the David Duvovny (sp?) story? He was a step-parent who did jail time for killing his step daughter. His wife stood behind him and he was eventually vindicated and released. He cooperated FULLY with police....they pressured him so much that they almost had him believing that he did it. This is the way the law enforcement works. I wouldn't trust them after seeing the way they work people over during questioning and are able to have innocent people confess to crimes they didn't do. I do not blame the Ramseys in the least for changing their mind about working with the Boulder PD after they threatened to hold their dead childs body as a bargaining tool to get them to talk to them. They had already told the same story to them OVER AND OVER! It's not like they NEVER talked to them...they just refused to go back after the Boulder PD started playing their tricks and it was obvious to them that they were going to try to pin this crime on them.

Why in the world would the Ramseys be thinking that LE might try to "pin something on them"?

No one was accusing or abusing them - they just wanted to ask them some questions - which was a completely normal thing to do.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

The light switch was a little ways in the room. John said he seen her from the doorway.

Ned: Well Fleet was right there with him and claimed he didn't see anything.

I wonder what ole Fleet thinks about John Mark Karr.

ACtually I would like to dig up all the original players in this case and get their opinion.

Steve Thomas, Linda Ardnt, Fleet and Pricilla White.

Sounds like a clue game huh?

Its pretty sad when a case gets this bizarre it becomes laughable. A 6 year old beauty queen. I mean really who could make this stuff up?

 

[Details]

Their cooperation did nothing - absolutely nothing to either bring their daughter back, nor to help catch the killer - it probably delayed the killer's capture for many years - gave him his freedom.


Ned: EXACTLY. It gave the killer his freedom, weather you think the killer is an intruder or one of the Ramsey's. Nicely summed up Details. Thanks

In this case - the case I was addressing with this quote, which is not the Ramsey case - we know who the killer was. And the family cooperated fully. And their cooperation resulted in many years of freedom for the real killer (an intruder), and many years of court cases and the police wasting many, many thousands of hours trying to convict the wrong person (the brother of the victim and one of his friends).

 

[Details]

Why in the world would the Ramseys be thinking that LE might try to "pin something on them"?

No one was accusing or abusing them - they just wanted to ask them some questions - which was a completely normal thing to do.

According to what I've heard, the police were very focused that way from early on. Don't we even have some of them quoted as saying that - that they were positive it was the Ramseys who did it just from the look in their eyes, their actions, somewhat or other? When LE is sure, they'll sure try to pin something on you.

As to abuse - when the police are saying they'll hold your dead daughter's body hostage to have you come in and talk to them - I thnik that's some abuse.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

There's nothing they can do that would change that. Talking to police that only want to convict them will do nothing. They don't know who the killer is, so there's nothing they can do to help.

Ned: Details have you lost your mind? They were the ONLY ones that could help. They were the only ones in the home at the time of the crime.

The police were obviously not going to look at anyone else, and were pretty dirty in their tactics - they did all they could with the media to try to get priorities focused where they should be, looking at other suspects. As far as duty - I wouldn't ever dare say that to someone whose child has just been murdered, to suggest that their duty is to put their grieving on hold, set yourself up to go to jail for no reason, as your duty.

Ned: It EVERYONE'S duty to help report and keep pedophiles off the streets and away from our kids. IN one interview a drugged up Patsy is warning mothers to "keep your babies close, there is a monster out there" yet she DOESN'T COOPERATE WITH POLICE. Hello?!


And with police looking at the wrong suspect, your duty to other innocent children is not to cooperate with police, it's to fight to refocus them on the real perpetrator, not to indulge their fantasy that you did it, and talk to them until they can find something to twist to use against you, to waste even more resources that should be going to finding the real killer.

Ned: To catch the "real killer" one must cooperate and do whatever they need to do to answer ALL investigators question so they can EXCLUDE them as a suspect. They didn't do this

 

[Details]

No - cooperation to make yourself a better suspect when you didn't do it is pointless. Cooperation - as I've said numerous times - resulted in the SD girl's killer going free for a long time. Cooperate in giving all info - and they did. Cooperate and tell them everything - and they did. Cooperate to help them to convict you when they have very obviously and publicly decided you are it - that doesn't help anyone... except the real killer.

 

[Details]

Assuming the Ramsey's are innocent - just for a few minutes - what more could they have said that would help find the killer faster? Remember - it's a random intruder, the Ramsey's have already given all info they know about their timeline, etc., and the only questions the police are willing to ask or consider involve "Did you do it? When did you do it? How did you do it? Are you sure you didn't do it in your sleep? In a moment of rage? It's OK, you can tell us you did it - we have proof you did it, just admit it." The Ramsey's have absolutely no special information the police need to find the real killer - they've told what they know.


There's nothing you can do in that situation other than what they did - they went to the media, and tried to get the investigation focused on other possibilities. They were completely responsible, did their best in a really horrible situation.

As in the SD case (and you should look at that - I believe the killer's name is Tuite) - when the police decide they know what happened, it's not some easy thing to change their mind, and full cooperation won't do it.

 

[tumble]

Assuming the Ramsey's are innocent - just for a few minutes - what more could they have said that would help find the killer faster? Remember - it's a random intruder, the Ramsey's have already given all info they know about their timeline, etc., and the only questions the police are willing to ask or consider involve "Did you do it? When did you do it? How did you do it? Are you sure you didn't do it in your sleep? In a moment of rage? It's OK, you can tell us you did it - we have proof you did it, just admit it." The Ramsey's have absolutely no special information the police need to find the real killer - they've told what they know.


There's nothing you can do in that situation other than what they did - they went to the media, and tried to get the investigation focused on other possibilities. They were completely responsible, did their best in a really horrible situation.

As in the SD case (and you should look at that - I believe the killer's name is Tuite) - when the police decide they know what happened, it's not some easy thing to change their mind, and full cooperation won't do it.

I think just the fact of complying with LE and letting them ask the nasty questions so LE can rule them out and then LE can start the real investigation.

 

[Details]

I think just the fact of complying with LE and letting them ask the nasty questions so LE can rule them out and then LE can start the real investigation.

LE has no interest in ruling them out. So far as they are concerned, they did it, and that's all there is to it. Any info that goes against that is a lie, any info that could be pressed into any scenario where they did it is gospel.

 

[Details]

Here - take a look at this case: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/reports/crowe/

Look at the timeline below - the multiple stories. The prosecutor thinks she is getting good evidence to prove that it was the 3 boys, and to prove that no way could only one person have committed this murder. No amount of cooperation, answering the hard questions, changes this! If the police hadn't been so determined to prove Richard Tuite innocent, and held his sweatshirt to prove it, those 3 boys would still be on trial. Even though their confessions were wrong on all kinds of details about the crime, even though they immediately denied them, even though only one confessed, one basically said, "If you say you have proof, it must be true", and one held up.

All that happened is that the police got an idea, were positive it was true, and went after that, to the exclusion of all else. And full cooperation, answering the hard questions over and over and over again didn't do it - the police kept it up until they were able to break them.

 

[shellbee]

It's also very suspicious that when Det. Arndt ok'd them to search the house JR headed immediately for the basement.

Why is this suspicious? The most effective way to conduct the search would be in an organized systamatic manner; room by room working from the top floor to the bottom or from the bottom to the top.

 

[kcksum]

Why in the world would the Ramseys be thinking that LE might try to "pin something on them"?

No one was accusing or abusing them - they just wanted to ask them some questions - which was a completely normal thing to do.

you've got to be kidding me right? JBR wasn't even cold before they were sure the parents had done it. Steve Thomas in so much as said so. They thought these people were guilty, even though their stupid key stone cops did nothing to secure the house and sent a terrified father to search the house . They knew there cops had made major mistakes and they were still focusing on the parents.
I wouldn't have stepped one foot in their offices without a lawyer.

 

[wenchie]

Why is this suspicious? The most effective way to conduct the search would be in an organized systamatic manner; room by room working from the top floor to the bottom or from the bottom to the top.

Except that this was the 2nd or 3rd time John has searched the house.

Personally, if it were me, I would have searched every square inch of that house by then.

I lost a kid once for 15 minutes, and I kept checking impossible places - like a bed that was only a few inches off the floor, the same closets over & over again, etc.

 

[wenchie]

you've got to be kidding me right? JBR wasn't even cold before they were sure the parents had done it. Steve Thomas in so much as said so. They thought these people were guilty, even though their stupid key stone cops did nothing to secure the house and sent a terrified father to search the house . They knew there cops had made major mistakes and they were still focusing on the parents.
I wouldn't have stepped one foot in their offices without a lawyer.

You're wrong. Whatever LE might have "thought" or suspected, they did NOT confront the Ramseys in any way about it. The Ramseys wouldn't know WHAT the police were thinking, because they left the house and refused to talk to them at all after that.

Linda Arndt didn't "think" that John had killed Jonbenet til she saw him after he'd found her - but even THEN, she didn't say anything about her thoughts, or even hint at them.

The Ramseys had NO reason (outside of their guilty consciences) to think that LE was focusing on them.

P.S. Jonbenet was already "cold" when she was found.

 

[Class-z]

I'll agree Klass isn't an expert but he suffered his child being brutally murdered and had to deal with cops and media - that entitles him to a point of view in my book.

I have to agree with the above statement: I think first hand experience, gives you more right book learned at times. Mark Klass is a little rough around the edges sometimes, I think and his anger still shows through and he's really upset over this Karr guy injecting his daughter's circumstances into his game, so I'd lighten up on the guy.

John Walsh has been there and we all give him the thumbs up for having the experience in the field. Is this because he has his own TV show and catches criminals? He basically came fromt he same start and murder child and his opinion of the Ramsey's is about the same as the rest of us. Lawyering up and not cooperating with LE doesn't say a whole lot about innocents. We saw the same thing in the Pukerson case.

 

[tumble]

LE has no interest in ruling them out. So far as they are concerned, they did it, and that's all there is to it. Any info that goes against that is a lie, any info that could be pressed into any scenario where they did it is gospel.

I agree, loosing a child this way and then be the prime suspect sucks bigtime but thats a hailstorm that has to be endured.

LE knows that the perp most likely knows the victim and the persons at the scene must be treated as suspects.

LE must move past that stage, and by cooperating it's done faster.

 

[BirdieBoo]

Fmr Det Arndt said (this is from memory so may not be exact) it was around 10 am.



The Ramsey's had no control over the BPD accessing their phone records. That was the DA who didn't seem to interested in obtaining them. I think it's the DA has to get a judge to sign a warrant.
Then when the BPD finally got the cell phone records they were blank as if no calls had ever been made! The BPD knew the records had to have been purged because they used the Ramsey's cell phones themselves!

OH and just for further info on this thread here is a list of all of the parents who fully and completely cooperated with their local PD when their child was found missing.

Marc Klass
John & Reve Walsh
Damon & Brenda vanDam
Mark Lundsford and his parents
just to name a few. The challenge at this point is to provide the names of parents who dodged PD inquires, refused to meet seperately and set their own conditions on how, who and where they would cooperate with.

Oh and for guppy, the only differences in this case from the Klass case are that Polly was taken from the home IN FRONT OF WITNESSES then murdered later and JonBenet was found murdered IN HER HOME with a bogus ransom note and no "known" witnesses.
Funny how having those witnesses didn't immediately exonorate Polly's father who wasn't even there isn't it? Still he fully cooperated.

IMO any parent who's child has been brutally murdered is entitled to weigh in with an opinion of the way the Ramsey's acted vs the way they did.

Actually the vanDams did leave some details out initially (about the marijuana and the somebody being involved with someone else sexually)...and they hired a PR person, which led to them being vilified on some forums.

The other case some of the posters are referring to is the Stephanie Crowe case, her brother was accused, the mentally ill killer Richard Tuite was thought not to have been capable of being stealthy enough to come in and kill her without leaving a trace of himself, evidence was ignored, etc....The "non-stealthy" killer did somehow manage to boldly escape from a crowded courthouse full of police officers in broad daylight however and apparently ride a city bus around town and go to a bowling alley before he was apprehended...

 

[Class-z]

BTW, just my humble opinion, but I see more that points to the Ramsey's guilt than I see pointing to their inocence, other than "innocent until proven guilty, in a court of law", however, this isn't a court of law and it's public opinion....

They did it to themselves and have no one else to blame.

 

[Seeker]

you've got to be kidding me right? JBR wasn't even cold before they were sure the parents had done it. Steve Thomas in so much as said so. They thought these people were guilty, even though their stupid key stone cops did nothing to secure the house and sent a terrified father to search the house . They knew there cops had made major mistakes and they were still focusing on the parents.
I wouldn't have stepped one foot in their offices without a lawyer.

Now I think you're the one who's kidding.

Steve Thomas? Steve Thomas wasn't even there that day!

Funny, the Ramsey's said they had already run all over the house searching for her, but they didn't bother to wake Burke up to ask him if he knew where she was or had heard anything.

Funny too how John Ramsey disappeared for 45 minutes hours before Fmr Det Arndt asked him, FW & JF to check for anything out of place. I'm sooo sure JR was "terrified" when he went off on his own to search the basement, shut the broken window and latch it (like that would do any good), went outside (and lied and said he hadn't) and just sat there calmly and cooly looking through the mail. Yeah, right, terrified is the word I would have used to describe Mr Cordial too.

They never did set foot inside the BPD, lawyer or not now did they.


I'm still waiting for Details to find me even 1 case where truely innocent parents did the same stuff the Ramsey's did...stall for 4 months, then set conditions on who they'd talk to and where and what questions they would answer...

Instead she sites one case where the brother was falsley accused to prove some elusive point about how the Ramsey's lawyering up so quickly was a good idea.