RDI Attack of the Clones

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by voynich, May 30, 2009.

  1. voynich

    voynich Former Member

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    Use that good southern common sense of yours.( I know you think this is an inside joke but only the R's would know this and did the R's acknowledge this, and give an account?Is it possible that the local newspapers may have misidentified JR as such, or the Rs as such, or those who were remotely familiar with the family might have misunderstood? Is it possible the intruder might have known PR and JB, detected a southern accent in PR, and decided to write this? (with Patsy's handwriting to boot). There are credible handwriting experts and linguistic experts who disagree -- the handwriting and linguistic evidence does not fit. There are substantial linguistic differences between the RN and PR's exemplars (see Forensic linguistics: advances in forensic stylistics - by Gerald R. McMenamin, Dongdoo Choi - 2002 -- what is available online he clearly shows his results using statistics and quantifiable variables)


    and advising someone to be rested, and including such minor details as brown bags,attache cases and proper burials is extremely feminine. other RN' notes have similar language but were written by men. Some other words like monitor, deviation, execution, scanned,aw enforcement countermeasures and tactics electronic devices countermeasures, killing, beheaded, foreign faction sound extremely masculine.attache could be commonly used by men. brown bag could be used by men esp in the context of money or alcohol. Have you ever bought a bottle of vodka in an alcohol shop? They usually ask you, or you request "Would you like that in a brown bag"

    In the first season of Donald Trump's apprentice, the all-men's team called themselves Protege, and the eventual winner Bill Rancic referred to his "attache" -- purse would be an entirely different story altogether.

    and advising someone to be rested,

    “DIRTY HARRY” –

    Story Lines
    Specified denomination of bills and type of container for delivery of the ransom
    The delivery of the ransom requires extreme physical exertion
    The kidnapper employs counter-surveillance

    Phrases
    "If I even think you're being followed, the girl dies."
    "If you talk to anyone, I don't care if it's a Pekinese p i s s ing against a lamppost, the girl dies."
    "... that's the end of the game. The girl dies."
    "Now listen to me carefully."
    "Now listen. Listen very carefully."
    "It sounds like you had a good rest. You'll need it."

    “RANSOM” –

    Story Lines
    Specified denomination of bills and type of container for delivery of the ransom
    The delivery of the ransom requires extreme physical exertion
    The child is bound with his hands placed above his head
    Duct tape is used on the child
    The child's parent is a wealthy businessman
    The kidnapper employs counter-surveillance

    the primary audience of speed, dirty harry, ransom is adolescent males. the use of such quotes sound masculine, not feminine. if it quoted titanic, days of our lives, sex in the city, 16 candles that would be feminine.

    who else besides the parents would be worried about a proper burial?same one who wrapped JB up in the blanket,in such a parental way.intruders don't care.

    Another RN stated that failure to comply with instructions will result in not seeing your daughter again -- it's thinking along the lines of not having a proper burial. And as the kidnappers were caught, it definitely was a concern the parents had.

    "we will kill your daughter and you will never see her again"


    same one who wrapped JB up in the blanket,in such a parental way.intruders don't care

    yeah I wonder about that. carefully wrapped or simply just covered? I am well aware that psychological profilers evaluate such evidence to determine with the killer had proprietary interest in the victim. There's a show on CourtTV the case files of Daryl HInman, and while this case was not discussed others were. We would have to distinguish between carefully wrapped which would be very strong evidence RDI, or simply covered for the sake of hiding the crime.
     
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  3. Holdontoyourhat

    Holdontoyourhat Former Member

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    JBR was wrapped up in a kidnapping way, not a parental way. It was less than 20 degrees F there that night, right?

    Carefully wrapped up, mouth duct taped, and wrists bound by ligature is all very standard kidnapping stuff. Parents lovingly wrapping up their headbashed, viciously strangled child while leaving ligature attached is a RDI hallucination. It never happened.



    Common sense tells you this :crazy:
     
  4. SuperDave

    SuperDave New Member

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    The title disappoints me, voynich. I didn't think you'd do smoething like that.

    I believe Nedra gave an account to that effect. I'll double-check.

    All of that's possible, but when you look at the big picture, it's not very likely.

    There are more credible experts who DO agree. Don't forget. Moreover, the ones who don't agree were either not part of the investigation (McMenamin) or made preliminary evaluations before they had the full range of PR's writing to work with.

    But he wasn't part of the investigation. Thus, he didn't have full access. There was ONE official linguistic analysis, and PR was named unequivocally.

    Problem is, the profilers agree with JMO. What about that? Roger DePue even used the words "motherly quality."

    I don't think you understand what JMO and I mean. The example you give merely deals with getting back the body to know she's dead. Think about what "proper burial" means: funeral rituals. Think about the elaborate funeral JB had. How the Rs, especially PR, got all tricked out for the public. Remember what I said about JB being spectacular? It's not that big a leap.

    Carefully wrapped, voynich. In a very parental way, thank you very much. JR himself said she was tucked in in a way that a parent would recognize. That's fairly close to his exact words (which I'll track down). LATER, he changed his story to say the blanket was only thrown over her. (Lawyer's advice? Who knows?)

    Which they did!

    Well?
     
  5. SuperDave

    SuperDave New Member

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    Yeah, HOTYH, I've been subjected to this "hallucination-rationalization-storytelling" stuff for a while now, so you tell me: if it's such a ridiculous idea (and I want voynich to read this, too, because I know he's interested in this issue), then why did Jeffrey MacDonald lovingly prepare a bottle for his baby daughter and give it to her AFTER he sliced her to ribbons?
     
  6. Holdontoyourhat

    Holdontoyourhat Former Member

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    I think you're sidestepping the issues here. The tape over JBR's mouth, the 2nd ligature around her wrist, and the blanket wrap are making complete, perfect sense in a kidnap JBR alive scenario.

    With JBR dead, the 2nd ligature, tape, and blanket become a moot point. RDI can't adequately explain the presence or function of the tape or ligature. "The ligature was too loose to do anything, the tape fell off her mouth" seems to be excuses for the existence of these obvious kidnapper trappings.

    Somebody meant for JBR to go out the door that night, which is very obvious from the mere presence of the blanket, cord, and tape. These items were on JBR when she was found, and they are important items to a kidnapper of a live person. Its the only way the evidence makes any sense.

    RDI probably goofed by not including the blanket in a kidnapping staging scenario, and instead dreamed up some 'parental caring' story for the blanket. How absurd is that? Maybe RDI would've been better off incorporating the blanket into the kidnapping staging story.

    Think about it for awhile and I know you'll agree.
     
  7. SuperDave

    SuperDave New Member

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    I'm not sidestepping jack.

    Not to me, they aren't. They didn't make all that much sense when I WAS an IDI.

    I think I said that.

    Is it "can't" or "you won't allow?" Because I'd be more than happy to do so, as soon as you adequately explain why the signs show that the tape was not applied until after she was dead, why the wrist ligature was so loose and tied so far apart, and I can keep going with you until the cows come home.

    Pfeh.

    Obvious, my eye. The only thing obvious to me is that the killer couldn't keep their story straight, with the crime scene OR with the cops.

    That would have to be one stupid kidnapper.

    If it were the only way that made sense, I wouldn't have spent the past year writing the book.

    I think about it every day. And I'm no closer to agreeing with you now then I was when I met you. Maybe this won't mean anything to you, but it was partly my thinking about this specific issue that led to my conversion in the first place.
     
  8. Holdontoyourhat

    Holdontoyourhat Former Member

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    Correct. All kidnappers are inherently stupid because kidnapping is frought with risk.

    Maybe you could do more than just make counter claims without any logic. Is the kidnapper stupid because he brought duct tape, wrist ligature, and blanket?
     
  9. Ravyn

    Ravyn New Member

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    It was JBR blanket from the dryer..And don't forget her babie nightie now everyone knows she couldn't go nowhere without it.. two gentlemen watching over her well couldn't this show we have three kidnappers in the house at this time.. Now show me the evidence that the duct tape was placed on her before death.. Aslo wouldn't the ligatures be tighter than they was..And one thing to me wouldn't the kidnapper(s) get in and out fast.
     
  10. voynich

    voynich Former Member

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    Honestly, I thought SW was getting a little old :crazy: but since I don't wish to needlessly offend I decided to change it :)
     
  11. SuperDave

    SuperDave New Member

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    There's stupid and then there's stupid, HOTYH.

    Without any logic? HOTYH, for the last year almost, I've been working hard on my book, in which I do my best to show how I got from Point A to Point B.

    No, he's stupid because he did everything he could to get caught. It was almost as if he WANTED to get caught. That's what the boys at Quantico said, BTW.

    As for bringing that stuff, surely I've made my feelings plain on that.
     
  12. voynich

    voynich Former Member

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    Even if "more credible" handwriting experts do agree, I wonder how certain this conclusion is given it was written with a sharpie. I know it's not possible to quantify but if they agree to 80% that leaves a lot of leeway. Donald Foster v.s Gerald McMenanin. Duel of experts. So would Roger Dupue state these words "words like monitor, deviation, execution, scanned,aw enforcement countermeasures and tactics electronic devices countermeasures, killing, beheaded, foreign faction sound" have a motherly quality?


    The example you give merely deals with getting back the body to know she's dead. Think about what "proper burial" means: funeral rituals.


    Actually then context of proper burial obviously depends on whether PR wrote it, in which case I agree with you, or an IDI wrote it, in which case it means denying her remains. I was thinking of cases ranging from Adam Walsh, where only his head was found, to Charles Linbergh baby, where it was badly decomposed.

    But your interpretation of what proper burial is is entirely valid IF PR wrote it.

    How the blanket was covering JB would be evidence of loving interest or an attempt to cover and hide the body.
     
  13. SuperDave

    SuperDave New Member

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    SW never gets old! What gets old with me is this idea that the RDI are complete zombies and incapable of independent thought. I've had enough of that to last me a lifetime.

    Just as long as you know where I stand.
     
  14. voynich

    voynich Former Member

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    Err, then perhaps attack of the clones isn't the best choice?

    anyhow I picked tunnel vision initially since brown bag, attache, proper burial doesn't strike me as motherly. When I hear attache, I think business man, not mother and baby. There are other words like "words like monitor, deviation, execution, scanned,aw enforcement countermeasures and tactics electronic devices countermeasures, killing, beheaded, foreign faction sound" that don't strike me as motherly, and the movie quotes don't strike me as coming from 3 men and a baby.
     
  15. Ravyn

    Ravyn New Member

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    Where did three men and a baby come from even the Ramsey's believe a female could had wrote the RN..
     
  16. voynich

    voynich Former Member

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    the three men were engaged in motherly care of a kid, in a comedy.
     
  17. SuperDave

    SuperDave New Member

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    Sorry about that. I didn't mean necessarily that they were "more credible" although one of them certainly resembles that remark, just that they were credible and there were more of them. Sorry.

    I'd also like to get your take on the issue of the one who was set up. But we can do that later on.

    I think that's a legitimate question.

    The ones I know of agreed to 90-95%, whatever that does for you.

    Indeed. That could be said for the whole case! Ultimately, though, a jury would decide, not experts.



    Well, for starters, voynich, I think it helps to remember that the RN is a composite of different elements, unlike the notes you post for comparison, which are, on the whole, single-minded in their approach and goals. It's the writing of someone who doesn't really know what a criminal sounds like and is doing their best to sound criminally savvy but slips up every now and then and puts a little of themself in it. And in time, I plan to go over all of these elements with you, if you so choose. But for now, let's see what DePue had to say:

    "The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested," the note says. Depue called that an unusual instruction. "The statement sounds caring, motherly," he said. "That fits in with the relatively small amount of money demanded. The writer only wants John Ramsey's bonus, something he can part with easily.

    The note warns that if the instructions are not carried out precisely, "You will also be denied her remains for proper burial." Depue said. "In my opinion, proper burial is of more concern to a female than to a male," Depue said. "The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them," the note says. The idea of "gentlemen watching over" has a feminine tone, Depue said. "Watching over" is also a caring concept, he said.

    Okay, now let's look at some of the elements you brought up:

    The note's demand that the Ramseys withdraw $118,000.00 from their account is significant, Depue said. That amount was John Ramsey's bonus that year. "The use of the figure shows that the writer knew Ramsey and his finances," Depue said. "Moreover, the sum is ridiculously low. Given John Ramsey's wealth, a legitimate kidnapper would have demanded at least $1 million for the return of his daughter. Even more interesting, the demand that John withdraw the money from his account suggests that the writer knew that he had that much money in a single account. Perhaps the bonus had just been deposited and not yet disbursed to investment accounts."

    The phrase "don't try to grow a brain John" is familiar usage that "makes it clear that the writer knows John Ramsey intimately enough to chide him,"

    In Depue's opinion, "The writer is a well-educated, middle-aged female.

    Okay, I can work with that.

    Wow, I expected you to put up a fight about that.

    Right.
     
  18. SuperDave

    SuperDave New Member

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    Just remember what the Clone Wars led to.

    I understand all of that. But at the same time, as I said, it helps to remember that the RN in this case was essentially a jumble of different elements.

    Are you referring to the film, or the family setup?
     
  19. voynich

    voynich Former Member

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    Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains for proper burial. The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them.

    If I had read this, I would search the house thoroughly and while I would certainly call the police, that would be all I would contact. I would then wait for their arrival and instructions.
     
  20. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    The tape was never actually on the lips of a conscious child. No sign of struggle against it. Just a perfect set of (unmoving) child lip prints.
    The ligature was never tied tightly around her wrists to be either effective or believable. There were absolutely NO marks on her wrists to indicate the ligature had EVER been tied tight. Dead or alive. It wasn't even on one wrist AT ALL.
     
  21. TinaD

    TinaD New Member

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    So why didn't she?
     

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