Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Jayelles, Feb 20, 2005.
I thought it might be useful to move this to a thread of its own
The ownership of the bat found in the yard, the one with a fiber or fibers on it, consistent with fibers from the carpet in the basement, has yet to be determined?
I think this is something that has not been made public (I don't consider jameson as a reliable source as she has been wrong many times).
Helgoth committed suicide as opposed to being murdered or the victim of an accidental gunshot wound?
This is debatable. San Augustin & co believe Helgoth committed suicide because he used a cushion to "muffle the sound". However, San Augustin & co also wove an elaborate case to incriminate Helgoth & his friend JSG of JonBenet's murder and it was full of erroneous supposition and misinformation. They claimed that JSG had "disappeared". Not only had he NOT disappeared, they also knew where he was and how to get in touch with him - yet they did not. Instead they made their case portraying him as a mystery man. It was quite frankly scandalous and I think they should be held to account for their actions.
The FACT is that an inquest determined that helgoth committed suicide and one presumes that the court had their resasons for doing so.
Helgoth owned a wolf-dog?
Wrong, he owned two
Helgoth owned an air-taser stun gun?
Helgoth owned Hi-Tec boots?
Correct - as did my son and a zillion other Brits and Americans!
Helgoth was unnaturally fond of little girls?
According to his ex-girlfriend, Helgoth stated that he didn't trust himself with her little girl. He had also been in a situation where he was in bed undressed and the little girl was o top of the bed. He LIVED with the girlfriend and her daughter. How many men undress to go to bed? ... I'm sure you would agree that it would be easier to count the number of men who do NOT undress to go to bed. I presume that he and the girlfriend were sleeping together. Kids do come into their parents' bedroom and climb on the bed. MY goodness - the same could be said for my husband - that he's been undressed in bed and our daughter was on/in the bed too. It isn't evidence of child abuse. Only child abuse is evidence of child abuse. We also don't know the situation under which he apparently made the comment about not trusting himself. People do distort things - it's an argument which is used all the time with regard to the ramseys.
The FACT is - that we have heard of no concrete evidence that Michael Helgoth was a paedophile.
The BPD has yet to turn over the Helgoth boots to the DA?
Don't know about this. What would they tell us? The boots had been worn for 3 months after Jonbenet's death - in winter (wet, snowy, muddy). Helgoth worked in a filthy muddly yard. San Augustin & co tried to convince us that Helgoth's boots stilll had some mould from the Ramsey basement on them - three months later! Never mind that the reddish debris on the boots was the same colour as the reddish soil ni the car yard where he worked!
San Augustin & co are the most appalling amateurs - really.
Wolf, on the evening of December 26, while watching a breaking TV news report of the death of JBR, prior to the disclosure of her injuries to the public, exclaimed to his lady friend, Ms. Dilson, "I hope the fxxxxx dies. He was sexually abusing her." or words to that effect?
According to the girlfriend - is she a reliable witness?
Question regarding the above: how could Wolf know (or even suspect) that Ramsey was abusing his daughter, prior to the disclosure of the nature of her death?
Two days ago, I posted about a British case where a young woman has gone missing and a poster at another forum immediately stated "The boyfriend did it ... blah blah blah". Now the boyfriend has been arrested. How do people know these things? We state our opinions all the time. I'm sure Wolf is no different.
Wolf was eliminated as the writer of the ransom note?
I cannot remember the answer to this. I know he was eliminated on DNA
Wolf was antagonistic toward big business, especially of the military-industrial kind?
Many people are - do you know one person who haa warm and fussy things to say about Bill gates? Doesn't make them murderers!
Wolf had never interviewed any employee of Access Graphics?
Wolf was fully cooperative with the Boulder Police from the get-go?
False - He was not co-operative when he was first detained by the police
Jayelles et al,
How do you account for Wolf's reluctance to cooperate? Had he been harassed or mistreated by the BPD in the past?
Good point regarding the innocent comments people make; still, if you view it in context--out all night, dirty clothes, pacing nervously the next day, refusing to account for his whereabouts, etc., it gives you pause. Also, I thought from the way Schiller worded it, which may not be exactly how Wolf worded it, the comment was too condemnatory too soon. I remember when I first read the book and ran across this comment, thinking, "shoot, the case is solved." We can't always put a finger on what exactly arouses our suspicions. Some people's suspicions are aroused at the wink of an eye. If Wolf had said the FXXXXX PROBABLY did it and omitted the follow-up remark, less suspicion would be aroused?
Did Dilson report her suspicions to the Police before or after the Ramseys posted their reward? Did Dilson "have it in" for Wolf, and upon what grounds?
From what you have read about Wolf, if you had known it from the outset, would you have viewed him as a good, or a poor, candidate for investigation? Now that you know his DNA didn't match any of the DNA on the crime scene, apparently including the DNAX, do you consider him worthy of further investigation?
Regarding Helgoth: Why wasn't his death investigated as a possible homicide as other deaths in the area have been? Were there facts, other than what you mentioned, that gave LE good reason to believe his death was suicidal, and, therefore, no good reason to continue to investigate his death?
Was it ever determined what led him to suicide? Had he had suicidal tendencies in the weeks and months prior to his death? I thought the nature of the wound that the PI's described contraindicated suicide. So, we can't trust them?
I've got to go feed my cats, now, but I shall return. One more parting question: have you ever considered that JonBenet's killer might have been hired by someone antagonistic toward the Ramseys; i.e., a conspiracy? Further, have you ever considered that the Ramseys were set up? Is there any evidence which could be reasonably construed as suggesting that?
Don't tell me if you have an orange male tabby, I WILL be jealous!
Is there any way, other than the Wolf/Santa connection to place other suspects together in time?
I have two cats; one is a gray/buff ex-female mackerel tabby, the other is a pretty-much-standard cheetah-ish (some might say tigerish) ex-male mackerel tabby.
You have to look closely to see the buff in the female; she looks grey to the untrained eye. The buff on her belly is obvious. The male has markings about the eyes like a cheetah. This makes him appear to be squinting. He is the gentle and affectionate one; the female tends to be grumpy; she will let me know on no uncertain terms when she objects to what I'm doing; like picking her up or holding her in my lap. I sometimes call her Natalie Grumpo, just to arouse her ire. The male's name is Buddy; they've both been recently sick, but nothing that dollars couldn't cure, and are at present in fine fettle. I have a well-fenced yard that they can roam in and a pen with a hut where I put them when I'm away shopping, etc. I don't allow them to stay out at night (except in the pen sometimes for a while). They hate me for that.
Ways to place other suspects together? Well, can we safely say the Ramseys could be so placed? I can hear you now...GRRRRRRRRR! I don't know of any way off hand; don't know the case that well; sometimes it's hard to discover these alliances. Some conspiracy masterminds cover their tracks quite well. I just think conspiracy is a possibility in this case. Let me float a scenario (and I hope I don't get sued--can't get blood from a turnip, anyway): Merrick hired Wolf to ice the girl and frame the Ramseys. Can you think of anything more sinister? Or some pageant mom hired Helgoth to ice the girl and frame the Ramseys, and then extinguished Helgoth. Far out!
Do you think the perp had to know about the Christmas party and that he would have that opportunity to enter the home, write the note and wait? There is still the guy who Barnhill claimed he saw approaching the house that night; the one who reminded him of John Andrew. He later recanted as to the identity of the person, but didn't recant as to the sighting of the individual, to my knowledge.
True or False?
A check for 59 grand was discovered in his possession?
59 + 59 =118?
In my efforts to confirm the 59,000, I ,who believed it was this, have found only a reference to 54,000.
RMN:Kenady, when arrested, said Boulder police had authorized him to break into the home. Boulder detectives denied the claim.
Kenady also said he feared evidence would be lost because the house was supposed to be demolished. Police suspect Kenady of kicking in a rear door to the home and taking with him three "drafting quality drawings," a $54,000 check and legal papers including a deed of trust.
Diamond jewelry, several watches and money in one bedroom were untouched, according to police reports.
The home is owned by the family of a deceased man, whom the Ramseys' investigators have said may have been involved with the beating and strangulation death of their daughter
Yeah, you've jogged my memory. Thanks for that. We still don't know who signed the check--it's a pretty good chunk of change--and what account it was drawn on; was it made out to Helgoth?
Diamond jewelry and several watches? hmmmmmm One for every day of the week; but the Wednesday one was too big, I betcha.
(digging) (digging) (digging)
Here we go.
The check for $54,000 was made out to Doug Helgoth, Mike Helgoth's uncle, and it was drawn on an account held by Doug Helgoth's mother, Mike's grandmother. Since the woman whose checking account the money came from was dead at the time the check was stolen by Kenady, it looks like it was just money being distributed to one of her sons as part of her estate.
Why would a "suicide" muffle the sound of a gunshot? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't care what was heard since they would be dead afterward anyway. A person killing another person might try to muffle a gunshot. They would have a good reason for doing it. But, IMO, not a suicide.
I am wondering if Helgoth was in bed with the child on the bed after he told his girlfriend he didn't trust himself with her, or before? If it was after he told her, there would be pleny of reasons why this would make a mother eneasy.
That's why San Augustin & co believe Helgoth was murdered.
I got the impression that the girlfriend had come into the room and he'd been naked IN bed - but the little girl was on top of the bed. I couldn't give a source for that. It's a picture I have in my mind's eye that I conjured up when I heard about it. I tend to retain mental pictures better than words.
I would say a couple of things about this:-
1) This was Helgoth's ex-girlfriend. Was she bitter about their break-up? Was she paid for her story? She doesn't appear to have brought any charges against him.
2) There was nothing said about Helgoth having child pornography - or indeed any pornography. He seems to have been more interested in the martial arts. Is it common for men to be interested in both pornograpy AND the martial arts? In my experience (of martial arts) the men tended to be pretty obsessed about little else
Remember too that San Augustin & co tried to pin involvement in the murder of another little Coloradoan girl (I've forgotten her name) on Helgoth because there was a new clip of her disappearance in the middle of a family video belonging to Helgoth. San Augustin claimed that child killers often hid evidence of their crimes in the middle of family movies. I'm sorry, but how flimsy is that? I have countless taped films and programmes which are interrupted during commercials to flip channels - or which someone taped over part of for a few minutes before realising thatey's pressed the record button or that it was a video I wanted to keep.
I think that is very flimsy evidence indeed.
So, if I'm understanding all of the above, the check was NOT made out to THE Helgoth (whom some allege is the perp), it wasn't found in his possession, it was drawn on the account of his grandmother and signed by his grandmother, and it wasn't half of the $118,000 ransom; add that it was found in conjunction with a deed of trust.
Now, as for the suspect boots, were they found in Helgoth's possession and were they of the correct size? Further, hasn't he been eliminated on the basis of the DNA in the underpants? Oh, I forgot, there's that DNAX that's still undergoing testing all these years later. Boy, this is some really tough DNA.
Yes, evidence of an attempt to muffle the sound of the gunshot, leads away from suicide; leads toward homicide. Also, the path of the bullet and it's point of entry and exit aren't consistent with suicide. What self-respecting male homo sapien isn't going to blow his brains out, when has the means and opportunity, and wants to wave life and the world, bye bye?
So, how did the inquest arrive at suicide as the manner of death? What in the world made them think that? Were there any other "suicides" or "homicides" occurring in the locale in that time frame?
Now, if the check had been made out to the alleged perp in the amount of $59,000, and found in possession of the perp, and signed by a representative (the comptroller) of the small foreign faction, and drawn on a bank in Istanbul, then that might be something worth pondering. However, what co-conspirator would be dumb enough to pay for the deed with a check? Further, considering that the ransom was never paid, how reasonable is it to assume that a recompense would be forthcoming (check's in the mail!). Further, how reasonable is it to assume that the alleged perp's share of the loot would be some precise fraction of the $118,000? Well, it has been reported that Helgoth's acquaintance told him that he expected to recieve 50 or 60 thousand as his share of some venture. Maybe the deal was that they'd split the ransom, providing they were able to collect it; a failed effort wouldn't count. In that case, no check relating to the ransom would enter the picture....nor would any cash.
As I see it, at this juncture, Helgoth's death, though officially labeled suicide, remains suspicious; though, I'm skeptical of any involvement on his part in the murder of JBR. Just think, you go to great risk to sneak into a little girl's house and write an elaborate ransom note, subdue her and whisk her away, while the parents and brother are in residence, in order to collect a paltry ransom; and, in the process, you torture with a stun gun (maybe), bash her head in, strangle her, abuse her sexually, wrap her body in her blankie, hide it along with her Barbie gown in a dingy storage room in the basement, and depart for places unknown. Hey, wait a minute, this guy said he wanted to crack someone's head just for the fun of it; just to see what it would feel like? Hey, wait a minute, didn't this guy tell his significant other that he didn't trust himself around little girls?
Just thought of something: would it be entirely outside the realm of possibility that JonBenet would wear her Barbie over her johns and shirt?
There are a few little things I don't understand about the "investigation" of Helgoth. Who received the shoes, who has custody of the shoes now? How old was Helgoth? If they checked his dna how was this accomplished given he was immediately cremated? What information does Kennady have that convinces him of Helgoth's involvement, and Kennady ,who I understand has quite a history, wasn't checked?? I would want HIS dna! He broke into Helgoth's house, found no indication of child porn nothing to indicate a connection to Jonbenet, but........who looked into his living quarters to check anything?
Separate names with a comma.