REVISIT Autopsy Report - Location/Decompostion of Caylee's Clothes

Discussion in 'Caylee Anthony 2 years old' started by ThoughtElf, Jun 19, 2009.

  1. ThoughtElf

    ThoughtElf Former Member

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    Not sure where to put this, because it is actually in one of the other reports, but would both the Captains of the Brain Trust take a look & comment on this post brought over from another thread?

    Posted by Macushla

    Could you delve into the clothed/unclothed theory at time of placement a bit?
     
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  3. JWG

    JWG New Member

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    Hi PH, :wave:

    I believe Caylee was clothed. In all, LE found lettering scattered throughout the crime scene that said "Big Trouble Comes In Small Packages". IMHO this lettering was originally on Caylee's shirt, and the material of the shirt had largely rotted away by the time the body was found.
     
  4. ThoughtElf

    ThoughtElf Former Member

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    :seeya:

    I agree.

    I did read several posts yesterday debating whether Caylee's shorts were on or off - posted by members educated in animal behaviors as they apply to forensics. That is where my confusion lies. I'd love to have some degree of certainty that Caylee was fully clothed.

    I feel that you & Bond may be able to help us sort this out in language us plain folk can understand. :wink:

    I'll bring back links to the relevant posts in just a moment.

    ETA: Thread must have been moved. I can't locate any of the posts now.

    In short, there was speculation that the shorts were not on Caylee's body. I believe they were, but do not have the scientific abilities to support that.
     
  5. ecs5298

    ecs5298 Founding Member of AFKBPOFPOPL & Hardwood Mulch Ki

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    If Caylee had been wearing the shirt, the shirt would have been dragged away with the torso/spinal column and found with the thoracic vertebrae not in the bag. I think the shirt was in the bag, not on the body. Same thing with the shorts. The dispersal reports show that the femurs and pelvis were dragged away while still attached to each other. If the shorts were on the body, they would have been found with the femurs and pelvis instead of in the bag. The flesh would have decomposed away long before the clothing would have rotted off.

    Why KC disrobed Caylee is anyone's guess.
     
  6. Marina2

    Marina2 New Member

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    I've only skimmed the report but I believe I recall reading that a piece of material (description suggests pullup) was found on or with part of the illium or maybe it was the femur. If this is correct it goes along with what you're saying. She was wearing a pullup and it was drug away with the bone. She may have had only a pullup on when she died or her shirt and shirt were removed after she died.

    I'd read the report more thoroughly if didn't have to go to work soon but I'll check this out when I can.
     
  7. NocturnalLady

    NocturnalLady New Member

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    Yes it did say that.

    Do we know if the quantity of material was ever determined to be just one shirt and just one pair of shorts? I think Casey could have just dumped all of Caylee's things that she had in the car at the time. So there could be shirt remains in the bag as well as scattered around if there was more than one shirt.
     
  8. Shear22

    Shear22 Proud crime junkie!

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    I'm not sure that the remnants of the shirt and the shorts were in the laundry bag. The way that I read it was that the clothes were collected and put into an evidence bag like other items such as the skull were put in different brown evidence bags. There's no mention of the clothes in the description of the black garbage bags and the laundry bag. So, it seems like the remnants of the shirt and the shorts were scattered around, but I'm not sure.
     
  9. Marina2

    Marina2 New Member

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    I did a quick reread and I think the material I referred to in my post above was that found with the r. scapula (anterior) and the r. humerus (posterior, anterior). These were found with the bags (area a). I think the material is part of the shirt as the blanket description didn't mention any holes/tears in it. To me it suggests she was wearing a shirt. They took the material off these bones for testing so we will know this eventually.

    The shorts were found out of the bags and a foot or two away. I would think they would be found with the bones of the trunk or legs if she had been wearing them. They may have slipped off before the trunk was dragged too far but the legs were still attached to the pelvis/trunk when these bones came to their final resting place. With the legs attached to the pelvis, I wouldn't expect the shorts to slip off only a foot away from the bags. So, I think it's very possible she wasn't wearing the shorts.
     
  10. Marina2

    Marina2 New Member

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    Oh no, I forgot we were on the decomp thread. Do we have a thread for this? Would it be the clothes or skeletal dispersal?
     
  11. ThoughtElf

    ThoughtElf Former Member

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    TY, Great Mod with Pixie Dust! That makes this much easier!
     
  12. Pattymarie

    Pattymarie New Member

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    Is there statements to the fact that Caylee had a T-shirt with the "Big Trouble Comes In Small Packages" wording on it on the last day she was seen...did GA actually attest to this? If so....boy.....
     
  13. LinasK

    LinasK Verified insider- Mark Dribin case

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    We've seen photos of this shirt before. So much for Caylee not being clothed, or wearing a bathing suit/Mickey Mouse dress theories, and so much for Casey's concern about them not finding her clothes!:eek::eek::eek:
    We now know exactly what clothes were found with her/on her.
     
  14. ThoughtElf

    ThoughtElf Former Member

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    I don't think so. IIRC, George did state that Caylee's t-shirt was pink, but did not describe the lettering. I am not surprised by that. To remember that the t-shirt was pink is enough.

    My main question is still to those with scientific leanings - do the reports seem to indicate that Caylee was still in her pull-up &/or shorts? I *think* yes, but still not sure.

    Marina2's post made a lot of sense, in which case I wonder if the shorts were ever in the bags, or if they were just tossed in the trunk in a mad dash to gather up anything nearby Caylee? I don't put a lot of weight in some statements, but is it possible that if Caylee's shorts were outside of the bags that this is what KC meant by, "They haven't even found her clothes?"

    (I think, deep down, I am also irrationally hoping that someone will 'prove' that Caylee was fully clothed. Somehow, I think that will take a bit of sting out of the reports.)
     
  15. gibby207

    gibby207 Pooh just is.

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    My interest is in the deterioration in which the shirt experienced. Let's just say we all throw a shirt out in the water for 6 months. What would happen? I wonder what kind of deterioration would occur. I wonder if "chloroform" accelerates the effect on deterioration of clothing.
     
  16. Zoe Bogart

    Zoe Bogart Let's not ask for the Moon, we have the Stars

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    We couldn't just throw a shirt out into water for six months and expect to find similar results of what happened to Caylee's clothing. Remember, her clothing, if on or near her, was exposed to her decomposition as well as the dirty water in the woods. I would think the decomposition would have some effect on the clothing, moreso than clothing just setting in water for six months with nothing else.

    We could try the experiment with several different shirts, using different ingredients in each experiment. We should begin ASAP because this is June 20th and we want to have conditions as close as possible to conditions in Orlando last year. That means experiments should be conducted in similar climate.

    While we're at it, we can toss pizza into our trunks, too, to see if they smell "rotten" in one month. :rolleyes:

    This type of testing would be very difficult to duplicate since we don't have all the specifics, although I'd love to try the pizza thing if it didn't stink up my car.

    Did KC really think a body in a trunk wouldn't begin to decompose quickly in the summer heat?

    For the record, I hope the child's body was clothed at the end. I can't imagine a mother not covering her young daughter's naked body. But again, this is KC we're talking about. None of this screams "accident" to me.
     
  17. Macushla

    Macushla Our Royal Himalayan Gopher Hounds

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    I am so glad this thread was opened - thank you PH! I have read with interest the discussion about whether the shorts were on Caylee or not. My question is - and I hate being graphic, but there is no way around it. If an animal was removing a 'bone' from the original area and that bone had clothing on it - is it possible the clothing snagged on a branch, root, etc. and was left behind as the animal continued on? It does seem to me from the fabric found on the scapula, etc. that she was at least wearing a shirt. I have asked a few people I know who have some knowledge of this type of thing and they all said it was a 50 - 50 chance that she was wearing shorts. I HATE not having a definite answer - but I have the feeling this is going to be one of those things, like exactly how Caylee died that we might never know.

    Thank you all for taking this question up and discussing it.
     
  18. ecs5298

    ecs5298 Founding Member of AFKBPOFPOPL & Hardwood Mulch Ki

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    I just re-read the autopsy again and in the exam of the large mass that was excavated and put into the body bag it is noted by Utz and Schultz that the letters were located in that mass.

    The vertebrea, scapulas, femurs and illiums were found in areas F and H, which was well away from area A where the mass was taken from. This leads me to believe that the letters were still pretty near the black garbage bags and laundry bag and hadn't been dragged off.

    One other possibility is that the letters came off the t-shirt pretty fast and were left in area A.

    Which ever way it was, it is still very gruesome to think about animals scavenging on Caylees remains. It makes me want to hate KC even more, which I didn't think was possible.
     
  19. doobiedoo52

    doobiedoo52 Former Member

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    I just posted this on a the forenic autopsy thread but thought you might like to see it too:
    Forbes et al . (2005 a, b, c) conducted an extensive series of experiments on the
    physical and chemical factors promoting the formation of adipocere. They found
    that adipocere would form in soil types ranging from sandy to clayey, provided that
    the soils were kept moist, and also in sterile soil that was heated at 200 ° C for 12
    hours to remove the normal soil microbial fl ora. ‘ Bodies ’ buried directly in the
    ground tended to form adipocere more rapidly than those contained in a coffi n.
    Interestingly, placing the ‘ body ’ in a plastic bag retarded the formation of adipocere
    but if the ‘ body ’ was clothed and then placed in the plastic bag adipocere formation
    was promoted. They suggested that this was owing to the clothing absorbing glycerol
    and other decay products that would otherwise inhibit the pathways through
    with adipocere is formed. Polyester clothing was deemed to be the most effective,
    probably as a consequence of its ability to retain water and, compared to cotton
    clothing, resistance to decay.

    And also this snip:
    The adipocere is admixed with the mummified remains of
    muscles, fibrous tissues and nerves. The final product is of a larger bulk than the
    original fat with the result that external wounds may become closed and the
    pattern of clothing or ligatures may be imprinted on the body surface.
     
  20. BeanE

    BeanE Inactive

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    (OT - Hugs, Mac.)

    It looks like this is as much info as we're going to have looking at the scientific evidence, and analyses and opinions of professionals based on that evidence.

    I would like to hear the opinion of some forensic psychologists on this issue added to the physical scientific evidence. My instinct tells me that Caylee was clothed based on a few things.

    One, I can't think of any reason this lazy girl would expend the effort to remove Caylee's clothes. Any effort KC expends has to have not just motivation, but strong motivation. I just can't think of a reason, and I've thought about this a lot.

    Second, the 'theme' to this murder (KCs actions/MO) was wrapping and packaging - not exposure. We've got the duct tape wrapped around Caylee's mouth and skull, probable wrapping in a blanket, Caylee put in a plastic trash bag, Caylee put in *another* plastic trash bag, and then Caylee put in a laundry bag.

    I personally don't think these actions were thought out by KC. I think all the wrapping and packaging she did was driven from within her. Based on that, it would be odd for KC to stop her driven wrapping and packaging 'mode', remove Caylee's clothes, and then go back to driven wrapping and packaging 'mode'.

    Clothing on, particularly a shirt saying 'Packages', in this vein, just makes more sense to me.

    Sorry to interject this if it's off topic. I think the psychological aspect is an important consideration in determining what happened to Caylee, and I just don't know where else to post it.
     
  21. Theonly1

    Theonly1 New Member

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    I totally agree.
     

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