RIP Common Sense

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by SuperDave, Aug 12, 2011.

  1. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    You know, folks, listening to Levi Page the other night really brought home to me just how little common sense is used in this case by pro-Ramsey partisans, just as the Casey Anthony verdict showed just how widespread the problem is in America.

    And I know that there are some out there who will criticize me for saying this. They'll roll their eyes and say, in their usual, infuriatingly condescending manner, that we don't convict on "common sense."

    Well, to that, let me say this: maybe we SHOULDN'T convict on common sense, but as far as I'm concerned, convicting a child-killer on common sense is a DAMN sight better than acquitting a child killer because of the LACK of it!

    Holler if ya hear me!
     
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  3. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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  4. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    Is it your opinion that "common sense" is exceedingly uncommon?

    I ask because you seem to be on a kick that juries don't have common sense.

    Either any 12 people are likely to possess common sense between them, or "common sense" is a rare quality that few people have, which makes you wonder why it's called -common.
     
  5. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    I'd say it's more than just an opinion! But yes.

    Not the ones I've seen lately. But even then, I'm widening my scope.

    That's pretty much my point, Chrishope: what used to be common is increasingly uncommon. It seems like there's less and less of it with each generation, and there are multiple reasons for this.
     
  6. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    I'd be interested in any actual evidence (other than juries not deciding cases the way you'd like) to prove that common sense is disappearing. What are the reasons?
     
  7. joeskidbeck

    joeskidbeck Rest in Peace

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    There was a time when I might have argued this with you Dave, but after serving on a few juries myself, I can only say AMEN!
     
  8. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    There you have it!
     
  9. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    That wasn't an answer. Not that I actually expect one.
     
  10. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    I'll ignore that cheap shot and give you an answer.

    Where would you like me to start?

    The election of obviously unqualified politicians to high office? Texting while driving? Flash mobs? Nigerian e-mail scams? The list seems endless.

    In my dad's day, the guys from Jackass would be derided as freaks. Now, they're actually admired. In my dad's day, people who want to starve themselves or mutilate themselves out of some sexual perversity would be viewed as freaks. Now, thanks to the internet, they find each other to convince themselves that they're not alone and society is too narrow-minded.

    As for the reasons, they are wide and varied:

    --the degeneration of our educational system, due to massive government interference;

    --the overreliance on technology and nanny gov't eliminating the need for thinking;

    --the way our society encourages mediocrity;

    --but mostly because concepts like right and wrong are not clear anymore, washed away by a flood of relativism.

    Let's be honest, Chrishope. You talk about verdicts I "don't like," but the way I see it, if a jury can't interpret Casey waiting 30 days to report Caylee missing and lying repeatedly, what conclusion am I SUPPOSED to draw?!
     
  11. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    Maybe with some actual data, not just your personal opinion that most people are idiots.

    Unqualified people have been elected since the earliest days of democracy. Since the earliest days of the automobile, people have done dangerous things. Yet accident rates are down compared to 30 years ago, so how can this be evidence of the disappearance of common sense? People got together in mobs in past. I want evidence that it's more prevalent today. Ponzi schemes, taro cards, palmistry - scams have been around forever. What evidence do you have that it is more prevalent?

    In your dad's day people would have gone to the circus and paid to look at freaks - the fat lady, the bearded lady, the dog faced boy, siamese twins, etc. etc. etc.

    Nonsense. In what way do you imagine the education system to have degraded, and over what period of time?

    There has been a Federal Education dept. since 1867. It has not always been represented by a cabinet secretary, though it has been a cabinet level dept since the Eisenhower admin. What do you imagine was the "golden age" of education? The HS drop out rate is now about 1/3 what it was in 1960

    http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0779196.html

    This table is also interesting, showing the % of the population with HS and 4 year degrees by decade.

    http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0779809.html

    Can you be more specific? Doesn't the use of more technology usually require more thinking?

    Again, specifics? How does our society encourage mediocrity?

    Again, something concrete would be helpful.

    How about the conclusion that most people have drawn? That the prosecution overreached and that the jury was tasked with deciding if someone committed murder, but were not give the COD. Therefore they declined to find her guilty.

    Instead you've decided to view the world like Grandpa Simpson - the world is going to hell in a hand basket, dagnabit!

    But all you offer in evidence is unfounded opinion.
     
  12. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    Well, duh. It's obviously more prevalent because there's a boatload of more people. :rolleyes:
     
  13. wonderllama

    wonderllama Registered Snoozer

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    Is common sense really the issue here?
    As I've stated in a different thread about the jurors in the Casey Anthony case, they may not have reached the logical conclusion we all believe they should have reached, but they reached the CORRECT conclusion in a legal sense.

    They couldn't be sure how the child died, the couldn't be sure Mr.Anthony didn't have some role in it...for mine, in a LEGAL sense, you can't find someone guilty if that is the case.

    We all "know" she did it, we all know she's a crap person...but "common sense" observations and understandings of a person just don't cut it.

    It comes down to A vs B in the courtroom and the majority of people can't seem to cope with the fact that Jose Baez, despite being incompetent and seemingly stupid during the trial, actually had a trump card....DOUBT.

    Like OJ and the glove...the part sometimes undoes the whole, and that's what a system that would rather see - one guilty person go free rather than one innocent person get executed.
     
  14. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    I respectfully disagree that it wasn't clear who murdered Caylee. The evidence was solid in the Anthony case. The jury ignored it and obviously had not only no common sense, but no sense of reason at all.

    How reasonable was it that Casey would sit in jail for three years if her father did it? How reasonable is it that her father would let her take the fall, and she still wouldn't roll on him UNTIL THE TRIAL, through her attorneys?

    She had the car where the body had been concealed for enough time to smell of decay for years. Her father did not have that car.

    If he did it, why wouldn't her mother, who would clearly perjure herself for her daughter, turn against George?

    There is no evidence whatsoever George did it. So making the leap he might have based on the completely unproven allegations made by the defense in opening statements is clearly a lack of ANY sense: the defense never even offered one witness to back up anything they said. Just because Baez said it doesn't make it reasonable doubt. The judge, in fact, had every legal right not to allow Baez to present a defense based on no evidence whatsoever.

    When 12 adults are so easily confused by tap dancing lawyers as to what constitutes actual evidence vs pure gossip, and then translates that into reasonable doubt in spite of all the physical evidence proving guilt beyond ANY doubt, they have something else going on. Those who are reasonable won't argue with those who have little ability to think logically about evidence. They've all bonded and now they just want to go home. It's called group think; it's common in juries sequestered over a long period of time.

    So Casey got away with murder though everyone on the planet knows she killed her daughter. The jurors really don't care, because they didn't feel obligated to get it right, just to get done. JMO
     
  15. Tessa2009

    Tessa2009 New Member

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    Can you be more specific? Doesn't the use of more technology usually require more thinking?

    IMO, not really. More technology today is "point and click", not acutally understanding how it works. Plus, technology is only as smart as the person who created it.

    I'm not sure if common sense is more lacking or less today than 30 years ago, but I can say that the Internet has made it more widely known.

    I can also say that common sense was lacking in the case of Caylee's justice. I'm sorry - actually I am not sorry. I took great offense from the defense team who thought that "I" would believe their lying crap they spewed for 6 weeks. I don't watch soap operas for a reason. The jury from Pinellas County did not do their job, IMO.
     
  16. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    Okay, switching back to editing this repeat post out. lol
     
  17. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    This. Exactly.
     
  18. wonderllama

    wonderllama Registered Snoozer

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    You're missing one important point.
    When they select a jury, they are trying to get people who don't know about the case or who haven't been following it as closely as everyone in the Websleuths community.

    So while it is clear to you and probably to me, it didn't pass the test of starting from a blank slate.

    If you can't pass that, then it's simply not possibly to be found guilty.
     
  19. wonderllama

    wonderllama Registered Snoozer

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    Just to pick a bit out of your post again, sorry ;)

    It does make it reasonable doubt if the prosecution can't dismiss it.
    And simply put, they couldn't.
    And why couldn't they?
    Cos they had never considered it to be an option!

    A smart prosecution covers its butt.

    There's the doubt...."Oh, maybe he DID have something to do with it...they can't prove he didn't".

    We may all be suffering from knowing too much about the case rather than approaching it from a layperson's position.
     
  20. Meri

    Meri New Member

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    I found this site after the trial was over. The only thing I knew about before the trial was a slight memory of Caylee's face in the news - no particulars AT ALL.

    It was obvious to me Casey did it, completely and totally obvious, while I watched this trial.

    The jury did not use any kind of sense whatsoever, in my opinion.
     
  21. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    Juries are chosen by more than their stated unfamiliarity with the case. As is now common, the defense used mock juries to test their defense argument to determine what kind of juror was most likely to fall for it.

    That's how they got a jury comprised of people who either lie about what they know about such a widely publicized case in their own state or who are so indifferent to the world around them as to be naive and gullible with little interest in challenging a fat fantasy created by the defense with actual evidence presented by the prosecution.

    I'm old enough to know that bad people get away with murder every day. The law is only an instrument to FIND the truth, a means to an end. The end is justice, but the system is only as strong as those who participate in it. A child was murdered and her mother who clearly killed her walked because the jury was easily misled by the killer, her family lying on the stand to get her off, and her defense attorneys who knew full well how to play the jury.

    In fact, it was jury nullification, because the jury knew they were letting a child killer walk, whatever excuse they made. Poor Anthonys, they've suffered so much. How many times have I seen people say they'd lie to help their child killing daughter walk? That's not American. That's not justice. But it's human, so if that's how it is, we should shut the system down, open the prison gates, and go Wild West. I'm in.

    Because there is nothing blind about justice when pretty white girls, rich families, and football heroes get to murder with impunity.
     

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