RULED OUT: Have we found Anna? Possible match to NamUs case UP 9597 - *NO MATCH*

gitana1

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So there is some discrepancy with the dentals that tends to rule out someone as young as Anna? But we don't know anything for sure at this point, right?

Of course, I know we will all continue to pray for answers and to find Anna soon.
 

RainyGirl

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I've followed Anna's case here at WS as well as on the primary website for her. Annasmom---I have such a tremendous respect (and stand in humbling awe) of you and your absolute and unwavering dedication to your precious daughter. Anna's photographs depict a pure and classic California "sunshine child". She absolutely *radiates* light, love and a sweet, organic "pure" beauty. No matter where you may be, Anna........there's no doubt in my mind just how loved, cherished and treasured you are.....always & forever. For her Mommy, I wish you all the best........and pray you find the answers you deserve soon.

ETA: I am proud to have an Anna (a niece) in my family. Her name is also pronounced "AH-nna". :)
 

katydid23

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So there is some discrepancy with the dentals that tends to rule out someone as young as Anna? But we don't know anything for sure at this point, right?

Of course, I know we will all continue to pray for answers and to find Anna soon.

I think it is still kind of up in the air. A longshot perhaps because it may be more likely to be a 6 or 7 yr old. But it is still a slight possibility. :rose:

ETA: the fact that her rainboots were never found make me think it is not her though.
 

Cubby

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So there is some discrepancy with the dentals that tends to rule out someone as young as Anna? But we don't know anything for sure at this point, right?

Of course, I know we will all continue to pray for answers and to find Anna soon.



Yes, while none of us have gotten an answer directly from the coroner regarding the dental questions, it appears as if the #9 tooth (shows a post mortem loss) may have been an adult tooth. None of us can really figure out how a baby tooth would leave an open socket, not that it's impossible, we just can't figure it out. (The dental information at NamUs does not indicate if the lost tooth #9 with the open socket was a primary or baby tooth. So this remains speculation on our part.)

Also, the #14 tooth is an adult molar which would be very unlikely to have erupted in a child aged 5 years 4 months. That leads us to believe it is a long shot this may be Anna. Of course nothing is concrete until a dna test officially rules Anna out, but I do believe Anna will be officially ruled out once DNA can be compared.


ETA: I can't stress enough how upset/disappointed/kind of angry I am that the coroner added so little information about the teeth described as O - other, unerupted or undeveloped. A lot of this emotional distress and roller coaster could have been avoided if the coroner had added more detail about the existing baby teeth. Honestly, the first week after this thread started I wasn't sleeping well and having weird distressful dreams, not actually nightmares, but was having dreams about this potential match daily. Such that they woke me daily.

It makes no sense to me that the coroner would add more detailed information on adult teeth on a child believed to be aged 5-7, when a child that age would have few adult teeth developed. More information on the baby teeth would have been SO much more helpful as an identifier. It defies logic imo, but who am I to say? All I am is a volunteer researcher and advocate for the missing and unidentified. Not an expert. It still really bothers me; the adult dental information is really not helpful for such a young child.


ETAA: I'll add; information on adult dentals when the majority of the teeth are still baby teeth is like discussing manual transmissions when an automobile has an automatic transmission. It just does not make sense.
 

Oriah

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this is a link to tragic story of a 6 year old that was just lost falling into a river in Oregon:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46131721/ns/us_news-life/#.TyCf_m87U1I

What was interesting to me is that they found numerous pieces of clothing the next day after she fell in.

Annasbro, how sad. :(

It is so common for clothing and belongings to be separated from their owner in water- especially rapidly moving or flooding creeks, rivers, and coastlines. So many times, people are recovered after drowning without some- if not all- of their clothing or belongings when they went into the water. Water is such a powerful force.

I have always wondered about Anna's boots and jacket that day. Boots and jackets fill up quickly, and the weight is so incredibly exponential. :(
 

pistolina

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Yes, while none of us have gotten an answer directly from the coroner regarding the dental questions, it appears as if the #9 tooth (shows a post mortem loss) may have been an adult tooth. None of us can really figure out how a baby tooth would leave an open socket, not that it's impossible, we just can't figure it out. (The dental information at NamUs does not indicate if the lost tooth #9 with the open socket was a primary or baby tooth. So this remains speculation on our part.)

Sniped
Cubby, I am no expert on teeth but when my daughter went to her 1st dental appointment at 4yrs they took x-rays and she is missing 4 of her adult teeth on the bottom. They are not underneath her baby teeth. At this point we are just waiting to see if they appear. The dentist said it could be because her mouth is too small right now or it could be because the teeth just aren’t there. I am afraid it is the second because my husband had the same issue with one of his bottom teeth and had to wear braces to move his teeth around to compensate. My MIL still has 2 of her baby teeth for the same reason – no adult teeth underneath. Could this be the reason the socket was open. The baby tooth was lost after death and there was not an adult tooth behind it, making it look like an adult tooth was lost?
 

Cubby

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Cubby, I am no expert on teeth but when my daughter went to her 1st dental appointment at 4yrs they took x-rays and she is missing 4 of her adult teeth on the bottom. They are not underneath her baby teeth. At this point we are just waiting to see if they appear. The dentist said it could be because her mouth is too small right now or it could be because the teeth just aren’t there. I am afraid it is the second because my husband had the same issue with one of his bottom teeth and had to wear braces to move his teeth around to compensate. My MIL still has 2 of her baby teeth for the same reason – no adult teeth underneath. Could this be the reason the socket was open. The baby tooth was lost after death and there was not an adult tooth behind it, making it look like an adult tooth was lost?


That very well could be the reason the #9 socket is open. My nephew, I think, has the same thing with some adult teeth which never formed.

NamUs indicates the ME has xrays, so they would know whether or not adult teeth had formed for this decedent.

They just, imo, were incredibly vague about what information they had on the dentals, which, for identification purposes in a public database is not very helpful for those of us researchers. NamUs wasn't designed strictly for LE and ME. It was also designed as a resource for the public, so why not give the public the information they need to help identify these people? All the O's left the general public like ourselves wondering if these were baby teeth which never erupted.

I am going to call the coroner before the end of the week. Maybe later today or tomorrow as we have a pretty busy day today. I would like to ask the questions about the baby teeth. I would also like to offer feedback as to how much more usefull more descriptive information on the baby teeth would have been and may be to the general public to help id this decedent. Not in a bad way, just to offer what I believe may be helpful, because we do all this research for zero tax dollars. If the interest is there to help, why not make the information as user friendly as possible?

Sometimes I honestly think 'brilliant people', and by that I mean experts are so in tune with their field of expertise they forget to step out of the box and think like those outside their field. (kind of like the old saying, book smart but common sense stupid, lol.)

When I get the info to the questions, I'll update here and at the general discussion thread.
 

mom2six

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Sniped
Cubby, I am no expert on teeth but when my daughter went to her 1st dental appointment at 4yrs they took x-rays and she is missing 4 of her adult teeth on the bottom. They are not underneath her baby teeth. At this point we are just waiting to see if they appear. The dentist said it could be because her mouth is too small right now or it could be because the teeth just aren’t there. I am afraid it is the second because my husband had the same issue with one of his bottom teeth and had to wear braces to move his teeth around to compensate. My MIL still has 2 of her baby teeth for the same reason – no adult teeth underneath. Could this be the reason the socket was open. The baby tooth was lost after death and there was not an adult tooth behind it, making it look like an adult tooth was lost?
I have one of these, my sister has more than one, my dad has four and his sister has at least that many. I discovered that this is more common with Scandinavian heritage. Typically, the baby teeth just do not fall out. If kept in good condition it is not a problem (I still have my baby tooth in that spot). Depending on location, though, a bridge may be more appropriate. My dad's spots were filled with bridges.
 

Chicken Hawk

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Very good possibililty, there just might not be an adult tooth in that location. I have an "eye" tooth missing on one side and exact opposite tooth is only a "half" tooth, same as my great grandmother :)
 

OzzieMum

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I have been doing a bit more reading on forensic dentals and although I have not found the answer to the question of whether or not only adult teeth are listed, I did find the answer to the open socket. An open socket is used to describe a tooth lost postmortem and a healed socket is used to describe a tooth lost antemortem. So, this still doesn't answer if the #9 tooth was a baby or adult tooth.

On another site it stated that dentals are not a very accurate why of identifying age in young children because of the variables in loss of baby teeth and eruption of adult teeth in each individual.

The fact that the #14 tooth had already erupted still make me believe that this is not Anna as she was still far to young. I also think that Annasmom would have known if by any stretch imagination, that Anna already had a fully erupted #14 tooth at 5 yrs and 4 mths as molars are normally quite painful when erupting. Surely Anna would have been complaining of pain at some stage during the eruption.

Cubby, I think the only way we will get an explanation of the dental chart is your phone call to the coroner.
 

Cubby

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I wasn't able to call the coroner today, but it is my understanding they are in on Saturdays too so I'll try tomorrow or next week. Just been a busier than usual few days here with school stuff with the kiddo.

I will definately ask if they can determine or have determined if the #9 tooth was a baby or primary tooth lost. And I will ask how far the #14 tooth has developed. Had it just erupted or was it fully erupted and done growing in. (not sure what the other word might be. ). I'll also give the feedback how more of an explanation on O and the baby teeth would be more helpful.
 

Cubby

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In addition to the variance when teeth erupt, both baby and primary, I think the same goes for whether tooth eruption is painful or not. My son never suffered from teething, even as a baby cutting his first teeth. The only sign he ever showed while teething is an increase in drool and a very rosy red cheek on the side the tooth was erupting.

I just asked him again if his two adult molars hurt when they came in. He looked at me non chalantly and replied, "No, they never hurt. But for some people they do." and went on to tell how a boy in his class was in so much pain he was crying in the lunch room while getting those adult molars which erupt at age 6-7.

I think it is possible to not notice when they erupt, but I am still thinking it is almost near impossible for a child as young as Anna to have an adult # 14 even partially erupted.

I'd call tonight but I am pretty tired and want to be awake and more alert when I call. I will try Sat or next week. Sorry I wasn't able to today.
 

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ETA: Just hopefully for a little smile, in this difficult time. We have 3 generations of Cub fans in my family, and already 2 generations interested in searching for Anna. Me and my little guy, who remarkably came home from school a few weeks ago and told me. I found Anna mom, Anna Waters. What he had seen was the name of another student in his school with a similiar name. Spelled differently, but phonetically to a 3rd grader, would sound exactly like Anna's. I thought it was sweet and demonstrative of his compassionate side. So I know, he too is praying and hoping we find Anna one day. And we know we have at least one more generation interested in finding the missing.
Hugs~

respectfully snipped by me : what a sweet little guy, Cubby! i know you are so proud of him :) it does my old grandma's heart good to hear of little ones being taught to care for others that way.
Blessings, comfort and peace is my prayer for you all during this time of waiting.
 

Kimbreeley

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I came across this case just a few days ago, and I have not been able to stop reading... my heart absolutely breaks for Anna's family. I know it's not much, but I am praying for some measure of peace and comfort for Anna's family during this trying time. Annasmom, you are a true inspiration, all these years of searching for your baby girl, and I am sure wherever she is, she surely must feel your love. Hugs and love to your family.
 

KariKae

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So sad...I check back every few days hoping the DNA has come back. I'm sure I'm not half as patient as Anna's family.
 

MissMarple

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So sad...I check back every few days hoping the DNA has come back. I'm sure I'm not half as patient as Anna's family.

Me too! No matter how my daily schedule is busy, at least twice a day I am here....

My heart is telling me that is not her...I was hoping for much better outcome...
 

Cubby

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There is no timetable right now for how long the private lab will take to obtain a viable dna sample from the speciman. It may be as soon as another month, it may be several months. It all depends on when the private lab obtained the sample and how easily or how difficult it may be to obtain a viable sample.

It's only been about a month since the possible match was submitted. And we were still waiting for the specimen to be sent to a private lab at the time of submission.

I'm sure Dr. Doogie or Annas family will update as soon as they have the results.
 

Irish_Eyes

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Just popping in to show some love to Anna's family.

My sister and friends do mission work with an orphanage in Haiti. There is a feeling they talk about sometimes, about how little their efforts seem in the wake of so much suffering and loss. Sometimes I feel that way here too.

They also talk about how humbling and awe inspiring it is to see the grace and strength and determination of the Haitian people in the face of so many obstacles.

Sometimes I feel that way here too.

I know it's a long hard wait, Annasmom (and bro), but thank you for letting us walk on this journey with you. I'm reminded of a lyric in a song, "The Long Defeat" by Sarah Groves....

I just can't fight when I think I'll win
That's the end of all belief
And nothing has provoked it more
Than a possible defeat

We walk awhile, we sit and rest
We lay it on the altar
I won't pretend to know what's next
But what I have I've offered

And I pray for a vision
And a way I cannot see
It's too heavy to carry
And impossible to leave

If all we can do right now is wait here with you, then that's what we'll do. Praying for a speedy answer.
 
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