scuffmark on wall/suitcase

[TLynn]

It was either DOI or the transcription tapes that Patsy said she was stressed while packing for three trips in JAR's room (excuse me, the "Guest Room"). Charlevoix (a last minute decision), the Disney boat trip and JonBenet's upcoming pageant.

Trash bags for the private plane to Michigan is feasible (as it's stated in DOI that John preferred them to suitcases in the plane).

But trash bags on the Disney trip - NO! Suitcases - YES! And they were going to leave immediately upon return from Charlevoix.

I've have not read where any suitcase(s) packed for the boat trip were found.

In the crime scene photos of JAR's room, I see no suitcases at all. JAR's bed is stripped and it is said that similar fibers from his comforter (in the suitcase) were found on JonBenet.

 

[Toth]

Since they were going to CHX for awhile and thence to the Florida Boat Trip, don't you think that perhaps the suitcases, if any, would have been packed in CHX? The whole purpose of taking flexible containers is that they are more easily stowed in a smaller plane where the pilot wants the weight positioned and make better use of the storage compartments.

 

[sissi]

I thought the plane had been loaded with the suitcases for the big boat trip,and the charlevoix stuff was just being thrown together. Hadn't John,left the house Christmas morning,around noon to check on the plane and load it?
JMO IMO

 

[why_nutt]

Originally posted by Toth
Since they were going to CHX for awhile and thence to the Florida Boat Trip, don't you think that perhaps the suitcases, if any, would have been packed in CHX? The whole purpose of taking flexible containers is that they are more easily stowed in a smaller plane where the pilot wants the weight positioned and make better use of the storage compartments.

If John Ramsey conveyed to his family that they ought to carry clothing only in trash bags for trips in the private plane, then John Andrew and Melinda had to fly from Georgia to Minnesota with their clothes in trash bags, correct? The dot is never connected in this regard, but John Ramsey was to pick up John Andrew and Melinda, and then fly them and their luggage from Minneapolis to Charlevoix in his plane. But what kind of luggage was being carried by the children? If standard suitcases, then John did not mind having standard suitcases on board his plane, and Patsy could have packed just the same as JA and Melinda were being permitted to. Perhaps this issue is one of the clues that piqued the interest of investigators early on. If Patsy claimed that John wanted only trash bags carried as luggage on his plane, but then John Andrew and Melinda show up in Boulder fresh from the airport with regular suitcases they were planning to put onto John's plane, such would show Patsy's words were not necessarily to be relied on.

There is no doubt that Patsy was packing clothing in suitcases on December 25th. A crime scene picture of John Andrew's room clearly shows a suitcase on the bed, overlaid and surrounded by what appear to be items of JonBenet's clothing. This would be consistent with John's statement that Patsy was packing for the Hawaiian Tropic pageant, though the amount of clothing appears to be inconsistent for a simple Sunday afternoon pageant. And since the Hawaiian Tropic contest is strictly swimwear, it would have made more sense for Patsy to pack for that pageant in a couple of small trash bags even JonBenet could have carried by herself.

http://members.aol.com/whynutt/jar_clutter.jpg

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Sissi: Burke owned hi-techs? I can find nowhere,in any of the mainstream reading anything to indicate this is so.

Ned: It was said the boot print could have been left months even years prior, there is NO way to date the boot print.

The hair belonged to Melinda? Once again,I can find nothing to indicate this as fact.

Ned: The "hair" was determined to belong to Patsy and was a primary arm hair.

The duct tape,stun gun,and cord are HUGE clues.
These are the typical items known to be carried in the commission of a crime,and are often found in the trunks of cars belonging to suspects. The fact that these things can not be sourced is big. IMO JMO

Ned: The Ramsey used both items however just because none were found in their home the day of the crime does not make them innocent. The tape was a HUGE clue because it was only sold in ONE store in all of Boulder or the surrounding area. Patsy shopped their one month prior to the crime and bought items both matching the price of the rope and tape. Patsy was a painter and both items were something a painter would use, ironically so was her paintbrush.

 

[shamu]

Originally posted by why_nutt
If John Ramsey conveyed to his family that they ought to carry clothing only in trash bags for trips in the private plane, then John Andrew and Melinda had to fly from Georgia to Minnesota with their clothes in trash bags, correct? The dot is never connected in this regard, but John Ramsey was to pick up John Andrew and Melinda, and then fly them and their luggage from Minneapolis to Charlevoix in his plane. But what kind of luggage was being carried by the children? If standard suitcases, then John did not mind having standard suitcases on board his plane, and Patsy could have packed just the same as JA and Melinda were being permitted to. Perhaps this issue is one of the clues that piqued the interest of investigators early on. If Patsy claimed that John wanted only trash bags carried as luggage on his plane, but then John Andrew and Melinda show up in Boulder fresh from the airport with regular suitcases they were planning to put onto John's plane, such would show Patsy's words were not necessarily to be relied on.
http://members.aol.com/whynutt/jar_clutter.jpg

I would say the opposite: there is only so much space for luggage in a small plane. If they knew the big kids had luggage, they knew extra Ramsey stuff would need to go in trash bags if it was to fit.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Sissi: You are right,it is not a fact, it is an assumption ,most of this case is loaded with them. Is anyone willing to list the actual facts? There are about three.

Ned: Sure I am good for this one

Fact Pineapple consistent with FRESH pineapple was found in JB's small intestine, said to be the last thing she had eaten. Fresh pineapple was found on the kitchen counter of the Ramsey home with both Patsy's and Burkes prints on them.

Fact: Burkes red swiss army knife was used to cut the rope used to garrote JB. The knife was hidden in an upstairs cupboard where only Linda and Patsy knew the whereabouts. It was found in the basement the day JB was found.

Fact: Patsy Ramsey cannot be ruled out as the author of the ransom note

Fact: It was written with her pad and a sharpie pen, which was placed back in it's container.

Fact: a mag flashlight was found left out on the counter, with NO prints on either the flashlight or batteries. The Ramsey's owned one JUST LIKE it, but claim the could not find it.

Fact: Red fibers found on the sticky side of the duct tape, on the garrote, and in the paint tote were "consistant" with the red jacket Patsy wore the evening and the following day however police cannot be sure if the jacket Patsy turned over a year after the crime was in fact the one she wore the evening of the crime. Patsy claimed she had never been down in that basement.

Fact: Fibers matching John Ramsey's shirt were found on JB's underwear.

Fact: The DNA is too degraded and old to be successfully used to identify a suspect, it can only be used to rule one out and by most experts opinion including Dr. Henry Lee, world renowned Foresnsic Scientist, the DNA is most likely NOT connected to the case and could have been deposited a day or even a week or more prior to the murder.

Fact: Burke Ramsey stated that Jon Benet was awake and in fact carried in gifts the evening she was murdered. Contridicting his parents statement that she was asleep.

Fact: Although Lou Smit brought forth ONE explaination for the strange markings to JB's face and back, his theory was quickly de-bunked by the makers of the air taser stun gun itself, by a statement which they claim their device would not have created marks similar to JB's and in fact the measurements are off by a couple of mm. There is NO conclusive evidence that a stun gun was used in the commission of this crime.

Fact: Fibers on JB consistant yet challenged by the FBI may have matched the duvet cover inside the suitcase found in the basement

Fact: JB was redressed and wrapped papoose like, which is indicative of the murderer knowing their victim. She was also wipped down.

Fact: JB died from aphixiation, and crainal head truama. No one knows for certain which came first.

Fact: There is NO conclusive evidence that there were nail marks from JB grasping at the garrote.

Fact: Meyer forgot to take a body temp. therefore he could only estimate TOD. He used contimated clippers on her nails, and did not swab any of her marks to her face back or leg.

Fact: Patsy Ramsey seems to not recall almost the entire evening or prior day of the murder, along with John Ramsey.

Fact: Some experts obtained by the BPD determined that JB's vaginal injuries were consistant with prior molestations.

Fact: Dr. Bueff NEVER did a vaginal check on JB during ANY of her office visits.

Fact: JB was a constant bed wetter and also left fecal matter. Both are consistant with signs of a child that is being molested.

Fact: JB was dressed up and paraded by her mother in beauty pageants to appear far older than her tender 6 years of age.


I could go on, but that's more than 3.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Toth: If instead of a stun gun it turns out to actualy be trained mosquitoes, I will be in total shock. Meanwhile, please don't say anything about 'one person's assumptions' several agreed on the stun gun theory.

Ned: Very true, however many others disagreed. and although once a believer myself, I was convinced that the actual makers of the air taser stun gun might actually know how their products work. They were not at all impressed with Lou's findings and in fact it is very well known that the actual measurements to an air taser DO NOT match either sets of marks on JB. My personal opinion and observations looking at the photographs is that the marks on the back are most certainly IMPRESSIONS made in her back from lying directly on something. In fact this stun gun myth has been going on for so long now, I might just buy an air taser and stun gun myself.

Toth: The tape is known to have been recently manufactured and its not really an item that one buys to wrap Christmas presents with.

Ned: But oddly enough, black duct tape is JUST what the pageantry arena uses and JB had an upcoming event. Black tape is also used in painting, and Patsy was a painter.

Toth: The cord segment seems unrelated to anything in the house too.

Ned: Although JB is seen in an outfit that Patsy sewed using cord. Cord was also something Patsy used to carry her paintings to and from class.

Toth: When confronted with what looks like a stun gun, what experienced people say is a stun gun and what would meet the Frye test for testimony in a federal court, I see no reason to keep going on about 'stun gun not proven'.

Ned: I would LOVE to see that testimony stacked up against the own manufactors words, and that forensically without the body there is NO conclusive evidence of such. Toth if I find this buckle of which I speak, I am about 90% certain it can create similar if not exactly the marks in which we see on JB's back. Toth do you have any photos of the INSIDE of the suitcase which was found in the basement? Were any taken at the crime scene?

Toth: As for the scuff mark. True. Its not 'proven' in any way. I think it more likely the intruder's entry mark than his exit mark, but I can't prove that it was not there for many months. It certainly appears to be freshly made in all the photos and video clips.

Ned: I think the skuff mark is a non issue, could easilly be debated as Johns mark from prior enterance of the home. So besides a couple of pop corn flakes and the supposed stun gun marks what other evidence is there of an intruder?

Toth: When a suitcase is out of place and positioned near a window and there is a scuff mark on the wall, I see no need to go around cackling "only a theory, not proven". I simply assume its a scuff mark made by the intruder, probably upon entry but possibly upon exiting the premises.

Ned: And I can just as easily come to the conclusion that John Ramsey made that skuff mark months prior, along with breaking the glass. The suitcase fits in nicely with the Ramsey's packing that night for a trip to Mich. Oddly enough they were packing their things in trash bags. Now Toth tell me if that suitcase was usually kept UNDER the stair case how is it that some intruder not familiar with that home, found it and thought hmmmmm, this would made for a good step ladder to get the hell out of the house.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Tlynn: But trash bags on the Disney trip - NO! Suitcases - YES! And they were going to leave immediately upon return from Charlevoix

Ned: Good point TLynn. I find this odd that an investigator like Lou has ignored this sort of common sense evidence, yet he can so easily come to the conclusion that an intruder most likley made that skuff mark on the wall when entering and searched under the stairs for something to step onto to exit the home.

I mean with that sort of rationality, does it really matter that the Ramsey's directly contridict themselves in their OWN book?

I would also like to know just how many packed trash bags were found that morning.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Why Nutt: Thanks for the picture of JAR's room. Does anyone else see anything wrong with that pic? Seems like too many clothes pilled in that suitcase to fit. Does it look like to anyone else that maybe perhaps there is a suitcase missing??????????

Perhaps the one downstairs? Look at the folded clothes to the left of the suitcase, they almost look like there were TAKEN OUT of a suitcase, not ready to go in. And does the suitcase on JAR's bed MATCH the one found in the basement? By John's own statement the case found in the basement was NEW. Now WHY would Patsy only pack part of the families clothes in only ONE suitcase?????? The fact that only one case if found in JAR's room, and is not anywhere near being packed correctly, tells me several things. ONe that Patsy was most likely packing that night, and two my COMMON sense tells me with that many clothes there was most likely 2 suitcases. Thanks Why Nutt this photo will come in handy. I need to blow up the suitcase

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Now I did a poor job of blowing up the photo, however this is what a see, folded T shirts appearing to be mens to the far right. A dress back and white, possibly JB's on top of the suitcase. More folded items appear to be "light weight" and not appropriate to wear in Mich in the middle of winter, so I would say this bag was most likely being packed for the Disney trip. Now were the Ramsey's returning to Colorado before going on this trip or were they traveling straight there from Michigan?

 

[why_nutt]

Originally posted by Nedthan Johns
Ned: But oddly enough, black duct tape is JUST what the pageantry arena uses and JB had an upcoming event. Black tape is also used in painting, and Patsy was a painter.

Others have made the point, and it is an entirely valid and likely one, that Patsy would have had JonBenet practice her pageant turns and walks using black tape as a marker on the floor, just as the pageants themselves used. But when you mention black tape in painting, it causes a thought I had not had before. The black tape is known even by Ramsey defenders to be insufficiently sticky to serve as a good mouth gag, but by the same token, its non-sticky nature would have made it a very good masking tape for painting, and yes, Patsy did a great deal of painting. So she could have bought it in the weeks before Christmas, using it for, well, perhaps this object, a prop chimney for JonBenet's performance as a Christmas gift:

http://members.aol.com/whynutt/redhat.jpg

The tape could have been used to mask out the mortar lines on the chimney. Once painted over, the tape would have been removed and thrown away, leaving whatever small amount of the roll was left over. This theory would account for why Patsy was known to have bought something with the same price as the black tape at McGuckins.

 

[Toltec]

Patsy stated to LE that she was packing 3 suitcases for the trip to Orlando in JAR's room. She stated that her suitcase was upstairs in her dressing room.

It is possible that one of the suitcases could have come from under JAR's bed? Perhaps Patsy needed to borrow JAR's suitcase for the trip to Orlando.

Patsy claimed that they were to return to Boulder the day before the trip to Charlevoix. Why take their packed suitcases for Orlando to Charlevoix?

One of the crime scene photos of the spiral staircase shows a plastic bag at the foot of those stairs. I wonder if that is the bag that was to be taken to Charlevoix?

This is not fact...but I read somewhere that Fleet White told LE "What if I told you that Burke owned a pair of Hi-Teks?

I also read somewhere that Burke and one of his friends testified to the Grand Jury that he does own Hi-Teks.

As far as the black duct tape goes...black duct tape was found taped to one of JonBenet's portraits in her bedroom. ST claims that the tape did not match the one used on JB. I would assume that the tape used on the portrait was also black.

 

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Nedthan Johns
Sissi: You are right,it is not a fact, it is an assumption ,most of this case is loaded with them. Is anyone willing to list the actual facts? There are about three.

Ned: Sure I am good for this one

Fact Pineapple consistent with FRESH pineapple was found in JB's small intestine, said to be the last thing she had eaten. Fresh pineapple was found on the kitchen counter of the Ramsey home with both Patsy's and Burkes prints on them.

Fact: Burkes red swiss army knife was used to cut the rope used to garrote JB. The knife was hidden in an upstairs cupboard where only Linda and Patsy knew the whereabouts. It was found in the basement the day JB was found.

Fact: Patsy Ramsey cannot be ruled out as the author of the ransom note

Fact: It was written with her pad and a sharpie pen, which was placed back in it's container.

Fact: a mag flashlight was found left out on the counter, with NO prints on either the flashlight or batteries. The Ramsey's owned one JUST LIKE it, but claim the could not find it.

Fact: Red fibers found on the sticky side of the duct tape, on the garrote, and in the paint tote were "consistant" with the red jacket Patsy wore the evening and the following day however police cannot be sure if the jacket Patsy turned over a year after the crime was in fact the one she wore the evening of the crime. Patsy claimed she had never been down in that basement.

Fact: Fibers matching John Ramsey's shirt were found on JB's underwear.

Fact: The DNA is too degraded and old to be successfully used to identify a suspect, it can only be used to rule one out and by most experts opinion including Dr. Henry Lee, world renowned Foresnsic Scientist, the DNA is most likely NOT connected to the case and could have been deposited a day or even a week or more prior to the murder.

Fact: Burke Ramsey stated that Jon Benet was awake and in fact carried in gifts the evening she was murdered. Contridicting his parents statement that she was asleep.

Fact: Although Lou Smit brought forth ONE explaination for the strange markings to JB's face and back, his theory was quickly de-bunked by the makers of the air taser stun gun itself, by a statement which they claim their device would not have created marks similar to JB's and in fact the measurements are off by a couple of mm. There is NO conclusive evidence that a stun gun was used in the commission of this crime.

Fact: Fibers on JB consistant yet challenged by the FBI may have matched the duvet cover inside the suitcase found in the basement

Fact: JB was redressed and wrapped papoose like, which is indicative of the murderer knowing their victim. She was also wipped down.

Fact: JB died from aphixiation, and crainal head truama. No one knows for certain which came first.

Fact: There is NO conclusive evidence that there were nail marks from JB grasping at the garrote.

Fact: Meyer forgot to take a body temp. therefore he could only estimate TOD. He used contimated clippers on her nails, and did not swab any of her marks to her face back or leg.

Fact: Patsy Ramsey seems to not recall almost the entire evening or prior day of the murder, along with John Ramsey.

Fact: Some experts obtained by the BPD determined that JB's vaginal injuries were consistant with prior molestations.

Fact: Dr. Bueff NEVER did a vaginal check on JB during ANY of her office visits.

Fact: JB was a constant bed wetter and also left fecal matter. Both are consistant with signs of a child that is being molested.

Fact: JB was dressed up and paraded by her mother in beauty pageants to appear far older than her tender 6 years of age.


I could go on, but that's more than 3.

DITTO ... as in GO NETHAN!!! -- YOU RULE IMHO!!!

 

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Nedthan Johns
Sissi: You are right,it is not a fact, it is an assumption ,most of this case is loaded with them. Is anyone willing to list the actual facts? There are about three.

Ned: Sure I am good for this one

Fact Pineapple consistent with FRESH pineapple was found in JB's small intestine, said to be the last thing she had eaten. Fresh pineapple was found on the kitchen counter of the Ramsey home with both Patsy's and Burkes prints on them.

Fact: Burkes red swiss army knife was used to cut the rope used to garrote JB. The knife was hidden in an upstairs cupboard where only Linda and Patsy knew the whereabouts. It was found in the basement the day JB was found.

Fact: Patsy Ramsey cannot be ruled out as the author of the ransom note

Fact: It was written with her pad and a sharpie pen, which was placed back in it's container.

Fact: a mag flashlight was found left out on the counter, with NO prints on either the flashlight or batteries. The Ramsey's owned one JUST LIKE it, but claim the could not find it.

Fact: Red fibers found on the sticky side of the duct tape, on the garrote, and in the paint tote were "consistant" with the red jacket Patsy wore the evening and the following day however police cannot be sure if the jacket Patsy turned over a year after the crime was in fact the one she wore the evening of the crime. Patsy claimed she had never been down in that basement.

Fact: Fibers matching John Ramsey's shirt were found on JB's underwear.

Fact: The DNA is too degraded and old to be successfully used to identify a suspect, it can only be used to rule one out and by most experts opinion including Dr. Henry Lee, world renowned Foresnsic Scientist, the DNA is most likely NOT connected to the case and could have been deposited a day or even a week or more prior to the murder.

Fact: Burke Ramsey stated that Jon Benet was awake and in fact carried in gifts the evening she was murdered. Contridicting his parents statement that she was asleep.

Fact: Although Lou Smit brought forth ONE explaination for the strange markings to JB's face and back, his theory was quickly de-bunked by the makers of the air taser stun gun itself, by a statement which they claim their device would not have created marks similar to JB's and in fact the measurements are off by a couple of mm. There is NO conclusive evidence that a stun gun was used in the commission of this crime.

Fact: Fibers on JB consistant yet challenged by the FBI may have matched the duvet cover inside the suitcase found in the basement

Fact: JB was redressed and wrapped papoose like, which is indicative of the murderer knowing their victim. She was also wipped down.

Fact: JB died from aphixiation, and crainal head truama. No one knows for certain which came first.

Fact: There is NO conclusive evidence that there were nail marks from JB grasping at the garrote.

Fact: Meyer forgot to take a body temp. therefore he could only estimate TOD. He used contimated clippers on her nails, and did not swab any of her marks to her face back or leg.

Fact: Patsy Ramsey seems to not recall almost the entire evening or prior day of the murder, along with John Ramsey.

Fact: Some experts obtained by the BPD determined that JB's vaginal injuries were consistant with prior molestations.

Fact: Dr. Bueff NEVER did a vaginal check on JB during ANY of her office visits.

Fact: JB was a constant bed wetter and also left fecal matter. Both are consistant with signs of a child that is being molested.

Fact: JB was dressed up and paraded by her mother in beauty pageants to appear far older than her tender 6 years of age.


I could go on, but that's more than 3.

TOTALLY DITTO!...It's about the facts in "justice for JonBenet" IMHO!!! ...see it for what it is!!!

 

[Blazeboy3]

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive203/StayTea/ST48hours.htm

The JonBenet Ramsey case.
Did anyone see that hour program, at 8 pm. on CBS?

The investigator that changed his mind was on there. (Lou Smits)

I have to say I always thought the parents were involved, due to profiling experience of past similar crimes. But since other recent cases have now supposed that there may have been an intruder known somewhat to child victim, and had assailant entering a bedroom in the night and carrying off a child, I am finally beginning to wonder. (Also, in the past...Polly Klaas)

They showed the garrot and it was pretty professional looking.
They showed a *scuff* mark on the wall under the basement window, and below that the suitcase that could have been a foothold. Smits actually climbed up and out through the window.

 

[TLynn]

Why_Nutt

I've never seen that pix before - it was always the one with the bed stripped and (looked like) a black bag at the foot of the bed AND I don't see the bed ruffle disturbed (per Smit with the theory of intruder hiding under bed).

Geez, just when you think you've seen/heard it all. All these years, I thought the comforter was stripped from the bed and put in the suitcase. There were two beds, however.

Now, I'm confused. I have to go take a hot bath.

So, JonBenet wouldn't have been on the bed to get the fibers - she must've been in the suitcase at some point or...

A long hot bath.

 

[why_nutt]

Originally posted by TLynn
Why_Nutt

I've never seen that pix before - it was always the one with the bed stripped and (looked like) a black bag at the foot of the bed AND I don't see the bed ruffle disturbed (per Smit with the theory of intruder hiding under bed).

That picture is part of Lou Smit's famous Powerpoint presentation. It was broadcast during an episode of Court TV's program THE SYSTEM featuring Smit. The picture you are familiar with was not a crime scene photo as this one is; the stripped bed photo was taken by Ramsey investigators well after the BPD investigators had gathered up all the evidence they wanted and had released the house back to the Ramseys.

If you want to see the laughably-disturbed ruffle Smit thinks is so damning, here it is:

http://members.aol.com/whynutt/jardisturbedruffle.jpg

(sarcasm on)Of course, that ruffle could only have been disturbed by an intruder, because it has that special intruder essence so immediately identifiable as not belonging to ruffles disturbed by the Ramsey family themselves. Such as this ruffle:

http://members.aol.com/whynutt/jbrruffle1.jpg

Or this ruffle:

http://members.aol.com/whynutt/jbrruffle2.jpg

No, the ruffle on John Andrew's bed was meant to survive having a plumb line dropped next to it and be perfect vertical in its orientation, and the fact that it was not is the noose with with the intruder shall eventually have hanged himself. (sarcasm off)

 

[Nehemiah]

Ned, you said..."Fact: Burke Ramsey stated that Jon Benet was awake and in fact carried in gifts the evening she was murdered. Contridicting his parents statement that she was asleep."

Can you cite a source for this? I have been thinking about something and this would add to my thoughts.

Thanks, Neh

 

[Islander]

Why_nutt: Thank you for the picture showing the suitcase and clothes on JAR’s bed. I don’t remember seeing it before. It convinces me of one thing. No half way intelligent intruder would dare hide under that bed as Lou Smit suggests when there is every indication that a Ramsey would reenter the room to finish packing. There are a lot of clothes on the bed, and it would take more than a few minutes to finish packing. All that time an intruder would have to remain totally still and quiet or risk being detected. It’s kind of difficult taking the offense when you are trapped under a bed.