'Secret' visit from Santa Claus

These people were not hardened criminals or murderers/kidnappers by 'profession', just opportunistic idiots who watched too much TV.

Are we talking about an intruder, or the Ramseys? Because I have often described them as such. Not only me.
 
Just wanted to add something else,

PMPT Page 593

"Fleet White came in to talk to me and Beckner," Koby told Hunter. "White wants you off the case. He says you leaked stuff to one of the tabloids after you met with him last year." Hunter remained silent. "He's on the warpath, and he's threatening to see the attorney general." Koby said that White refused to cooperate with the police as long as Hunter was still on the case. In one conversation with detectives, White had even teased the officers: "What would you say if I told you the Ramseys owned Hi-Tec shoes?"

Hunter had known for some time that the Whites were angry with him. Bob Grant, a member of his task force, had advised Hunter to mend his fences, but the Whites wanted access to their police statements, and Hunter and Mark Beckner had declined because they felt it would taint White's usefulness as a witness. The police believed that White might have critical evidence in the case-he had been with John Ramsey when JonBenet's body was found-but they did not want to make the same trade they'd granted the Ramseys the previous April. Some of the detectives were doubtful that White had even opened the wine cellar door when he made his first trip to the basement early that morn- ing. For his part, White couldn't understand why Hunter had fought for the Ramseys' right to see their police statements while now Hunter was denying him the same privilege. He was also upset that in April, Hunter had softened the word- ing of Koby's statement intended to exonerate him of involvement in JonBenet's murder. The Whites felt they were being slighted by Hunter."




I am sorry but ALL this makes NO SENSE to me.
Maybe FW considered himself the OTHER fat cat in town just like the note said.........

I DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS MAN'S BEHAVIOUR.Never have and never will.Something's wrong here.
 
Pls don't ask me to believe he did it all for JB and justice.I can't and I won't.His involvement really bothers me.Everything above+him having breakfast with one of the lead detectives,for how many times?It stinks.
And there's more,

17 Q. Did Leslie Durgin tell you this?



18 A. Nope.



19 Q. Who told you that?



20 A. Priscilla White, who heard it from Leslie



21 Durgin.






15 Q. And you said that was told to the mayor, is



16 that correct, Leslie Sturgin?



17 A. Yes.



18 Q. And your source of that information was



19 Priscilla White?



20 A. Yes.



21 Q. Who heard this from the mayor, is that



22 correct?





http://www.acandyrose.com/03182000-arndtdepo-04102000.htm


So Priscilla was busy as well,huh
 
From ST's book,page 20

"...Fleet White stepped away from the little group attending the Ramseys and took a walk inside the house,certainly with the best of intentions.No one had told him not to.His own little girl,JonBenet's best friend,had temporarily dissapeared the year before,and vividly remembered the fear he endured until Daphne was found hiding.Maybe JonBenet was doing the same thing,just playfully hiding somewhere."

1.certainly with the best of intentions.And he knows that HOW.Amazing.It's like superdetective Arndt knew instantly that JR was the killer.I don't know if I like these cops line of thinking...whatever.

2.Fleets excuse........."Maybe JonBenet was doing the same thing,just playfully hiding somewhere."............YEAH RIGHT.And before JB decided to hide she wrote the 3 page ransom note just to make a joke and scare her parents....mhm.
 
Hello everyone, haven't posted in quite awhile. I read every night and since I had no new reading material, decided to pick up my Ramsey books.

The secret Santa scenario I believe came from a note found in JonBenet's trash can. The note was from a Secret Santa and I believe it said I love you or something to that effect. Patsy was asked if she knew who the author of that note was, and she said she did not. The note was found torn into several pieces and I began to wonder...

1. Who read the note to JonBenet?

2. Who tore it up and placed it in the trash?
 
Hello everyone, haven't posted in quite awhile. I read every night and since I had no new reading material, decided to pick up my Ramsey books.

The secret Santa scenario I believe came from a note found in JonBenet's trash can. The note was from a Secret Santa and I believe it said I love you or something to that effect. Patsy was asked if she knew who the author of that note was, and she said she did not. The note was found torn into several pieces and I began to wonder...

1. Who read the note to JonBenet?

2. Who tore it up and placed it in the trash?

Those are some of the many "leads" that seemed to have simply disappeared. I also want to know what was done with this note? Did LE take the pieces into custody? Lots of people gave handwriting samples. Was the note matched to anyone? Did they even TRY? Obviously, since Santa Bill was a suspect in the beginning, his handwriting should have been compared to that note. Because the RST is so tight-lipped about that note, I am very suspicious about it. If it existed, I'd bet by the absence of a fuss from the Rs about it, that it was written by a family member. If you were the parents of a murdered little girl who told someone that she was going to have a "secret visit" from Santa the night she was murdered, then you found a note from "santa" in her trash- would you be relentless in finding the author, or would you hush it up?...yeah, that's what I thought.
There are only so many ways a 6-year old girl gets to HAVE a note from Santa in her trash. Either "Santa" gave it to her, or someone put it there after the fact. If Santa gave it to her, obviously it was no SFF. I think it is possible that note was "RN- Part 2". Staging.
BTW, kids that age usually do not rip up notes before they throw them away. Actually, girls that age would probably just put that note on her dresser or wherever she kept stuff like that. (kids that age hoard a LOT of stuff). Ripping up a note and putting it in the trash is a more grown-up thing to do.
 
Re Fleet

On the other hand John is lying again.They always said they NEVER pointed fingers at Fleet.

Q. (By Mr. Levin) Hang on. I

21 suppose what I'm -- I don't mean to cut you

22 off, Mr. Ramsey, obviously. But what I am

23 interested in, I mean, we had a list of

24 names that you provided early on, and I was

25 interested if there are recent people. I

0010

1 mean, obviously we've looked at Chris Wolf

2 and we looked at Fleet and we've looked at

3 Priscilla and we've looked at Merrick, and

4 those people, and I'm looking for --

5 MR. WOOD: Have they been

6 cleared, Bruce? Have they been cleared?

7 MR. LEVIN: I can't comment on the

8 status of the investigation.

9 MR. WOOD: Has he been cleared

10 from your list. Are we wasting our time?

11 Tell us so we won't waste Ollie's resources.
12 They can go elsewhere.



http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/2000ATL-John-Interview-Complete.htm

It's been said that S.Stine gave LE a list with 30 reasons why FW might have done it.Where can I find the list?TIA
 
Chiquita, my understanding, based on what I've read, is that Boulder PD found a Santa suit unrelated to Bill McReynolds in one of the rooms of the Ramsey basement, i.e. it belonged to the Ramseys. John Ramsey also referred to himself as "Santa" as well.

Bumping this post since it seems to concern our current discussion about JonBenet actually dying while in the basement.

Has anyone learned any new info on this confiscated Santa suit? TIA
 
Bumping this post since it seems to concern our current discussion about JonBenet actually dying while in the basement.

Has anyone learned any new info on this confiscated Santa suit? TIA

I guess because the season has me thinking about Santa and with the anniversary of the murder coming up, this Suit thing has been in my thoughts. IIRC, the Suit that was taken was claimed to be a Ramsey suit by one of the Ramseys. You know, the ones who lie, get confused, can't remember, etc.

So, if it WAS theirs, does anyone recall any supporting information from another source about when a Ramsey might have used it? You know, the same Ramsey family that hired someone to be their party Santa over the years? How about tests of the fibers?

Most feel the Ramseys were at least involved in the cover-up of JB's murder. There is corroboration of JB expecting a SECRET visit from Santa, from the statement of Kostaniak, and adding in the torn note found in her trash as discussed in this thread, along with the murder occurring on Christmas night, the inclusion of the Suit taken into evidence just chills me.
I wonder if it was checked for DNA that might match the other DNA they are so convinced is key in the case.

If JR did not have hands on participation in JB's death, as I suspect, and believing that the R's were involved in a cover-up, the only option left for me to consider is that they were covering for someone important enough that their family would be under threat forever. While I believe Burke would have been capable of the crime, I can't suspect him. The flashlight was wiped clean, and no Ramsey would have had the need to do that since it was their household flashlight. No signs of forced entry, to have a non-family member involved would = Ramsey Acquaintance.

As I saw on another post somewhere, maybe we have to start thinking "RADI" - Ramsey Acquaintance Did It, with Ramseys fully in the know, and that leaves JR possibly prosecutable with charges of Kidnapping or Felony Homicide?
 
I guess because the season has me thinking about Santa and with the anniversary of the murder coming up, this Suit thing has been in my thoughts. IIRC, the Suit that was taken was claimed to be a Ramsey suit by one of the Ramseys. You know, the ones who lie, get confused, can't remember, etc.

So, if it WAS theirs, does anyone recall any supporting information from another source about when a Ramsey might have used it? You know, the same Ramsey family that hired someone to be their party Santa over the years? How about tests of the fibers?

Most feel the Ramseys were at least involved in the cover-up of JB's murder. There is corroboration of JB expecting a SECRET visit from Santa, from the statement of Kostaniak, and adding in the torn note found in her trash as discussed in this thread, along with the murder occurring on Christmas night, the inclusion of the Suit taken into evidence just chills me.
I wonder if it was checked for DNA that might match the other DNA they are so convinced is key in the case.

If JR did not have hands on participation in JB's death, as I suspect, and believing that the R's were involved in a cover-up, the only option left for me to consider is that they were covering for someone important enough that their family would be under threat forever. While I believe Burke would have been capable of the crime, I can't suspect him. The flashlight was wiped clean, and no Ramsey would have had the need to do that since it was their household flashlight. No signs of forced entry, to have a non-family member involved would = Ramsey Acquaintance.

As I saw on another post somewhere, maybe we have to start thinking "RADI" - Ramsey Acquaintance Did It, with Ramseys fully in the know, and that leaves JR possibly prosecutable with charges of Kidnapping or Felony Homicide?

This is the first time I have heard of the RADI term but I like it a lot. Very few seem to think this, but it is what I think happened. What you say describes very well what I have thought for a long time. IDI is out of the question. BDI is also not plausible, IMO. RDI, while it sounds good, is too simplistic and is tunnel vision and disregards contrary evidence. RADI is the most complex theory of all but is the only one that actually could be in line with all of the evidence. RADI means just what you said it means here, with the Rs knowing what happened and who did it but not doing it themselves.
 
I believe the Santa suit came up in one of the Rs interviews and it was said to be a suit that was worn at an Access Graphics Christmas party.
As for RADI - I believe the Rs did the coverup, with or without outside help. I can't see them covering up for ANYONE besides their son(s) UNLESS they were involved in something so illegal/immoral that they were compelled to do so. If they KNEW who did it and it was not one of their sons then they had to either have been complicit (in other words, ALLOWED it to happen with their knowledge) or the "friend" had something horrific over them.
If they "allowed" it - I can't see them "allowing" someone to kill their daughter. But I feel what you mean is that they allowed someone to abuse her and she was killed accidentally. Patsy said "We didn't mean for this to happen". But I still believe this does not refer to someone outside the R family.
 
I believe the Santa suit came up in one of the Rs interviews and it was said to be a suit that was worn at an Access Graphics Christmas party.
As for RADI - I believe the Rs did the coverup, with or without outside help. I can't see them covering up for ANYONE besides their son(s) UNLESS they were involved in something so illegal/immoral that they were compelled to do so. If they KNEW who did it and it was not one of their sons then they had to either have been complicit (in other words, ALLOWED it to happen with their knowledge) or the "friend" had something horrific over them.
If they "allowed" it - I can't see them "allowing" someone to kill their daughter. But I feel what you mean is that they allowed someone to abuse her and she was killed accidentally. Patsy said "We didn't mean for this to happen". But I still believe this does not refer to someone outside the R family.

You are such a treasure trove of info, DD - thanks for the reference.

I cannot think either of the R's would have covered for the other. They might have covered for Burke, but since it is suspected they conferred with "others" during the night (missing phone records) and might have learned Burke could not be prosecuted, they would only cover out of vanity. Couldn't doubt that, but they had enough money to let that series of events play out, keep it hushed beyond a brief news mention, and get corrective help for Burke, allowing them to maintain their level of comfort in life. I don't think Patsy would have covered for JAR, unless John bulldozed that, which he would have had to do to provide all the necessary cover up for JAR - special flights, lying witnesses and family members, etc. Couldn't doubt that either. Missing phone records reek of adult complicity, which could give way to an out-of-household family member or Acquaintance being involved.

Something that bothers me: Patsy was wearing the same clothing in the a.m. of the 26th, hair and makeup done. ST says that red-flagged them as to her guilt, because it explained why she might have been so tied up with the crime she never went to bed that night. But I can't imagine any woman of Patsy's stature having to do all the physical work of the crime - carrying a 45 lb. child, changing clothing on the lifeless body, running around the house gathering things to use in the crime, getting rid of evidence, etc......without having some "messy" looks to the clothing, hair or makeup that would have looked very evident to at least one person who arrived after the phone calls began. No one ever commented on her appearance being the least bit disheveled, or could counter her claim to having awakened and prepared herself for the day. Even if she had only been down on her knees in the basement over JB to get her jacket fibers tied into the ligature which also captured JB's hair, you'd think the knees of her black velvet pants would have shown some signs of it.

My point is that if Patsy did not go to bed that night and looked the same in the early a.m. as she might have looked when they left the Whites, would it be possible instead that she was a very passive bystander during the night - maybe applying herself to writing the ransom note - knowing exactly who had caused JB's death? Wecht diagnosed JB's death as a sex game gone awry. It's not a very popular theory on this forum, but there have been posters here and there who pose some challenging information about the possibility of Ramsey connections to players in that sort of activity. It always ends up getting squelched because it becomes too hinky for most to even think about, but that child was sexually abused, and if it was not one of the R's themselves, then it had to be someone outside the household - family member, someone they knew, either someone who had a key, or was let into the house.
 
From an interview with Patsy:

24 TOM HANEY: Did you use any kind of cotton
25 batting like, or it appears to be a fairly big piece,
0466
1 not a real small piece like an Aspirin bottle.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't know. I can't
3 think of.
4 TOM HANEY: Anywhere, any decorating or
5 crafts or --
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't think of any.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: Did you have any Santa suits?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I had Santas. I did have a
9 Santa suit. I stuffed the Santa sometimes.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. Where was that?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: That should have been back in
12 the Christmas room back, you know, in the shower back
13 in there.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: If you walked past the laundry
15 room, the shower to the storage room is at the end of
16 that hallway, the room it would be in.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Right there would be kind of a
18 beard, but I don't know it was made out of cotton. It
19 was kind of more like synthetic.
20 TRIP DEMUTH: That was -- the Santa suit was
21 never in the window sill.

22 PATSY RAMSEY: Not to my knowledge

Interesting question from Trip Demuth. Do you think there was something in the window sill, like maybe red fibers or cotton batting?
 
As for Patsy's appearance, she was said to be in full makeup with hair coiffed as well. While it is conceivable she got up early and got herself together before coming down the stairs, we have to take ANYTHING she says with a grain of salt because we simply have no way to tell what is a lie and what is not. This goes for JR and BR as well. They were alone in the house as far as we know, and there had never been any other person that has been identified as also being present that night, though there are theories.
Patsy's fibers intimately wound through the crime scene place her THERE at least for the staging. Ditto JR. There is nothing that has PUBLICLY been linked to BR as far as the crime scene but remember that BR's age at the time prevents him from publicly being mentioned if there WAS fiber or DNA evidence found at the crime scene linking him to it.

As to whether there were fibers from a Santa suit in the window well- none has been publicly identified, and I cannot imagine it would be kept hidden if they were found. It is very frustrating when some of the lines of questioning never seem to go anywhere or get resolved. This is one of them. Another is the apparent discovery of photographs of JB in the basement laundry area and a comment from LE about certain photos that were still in the camera and elicited comments from LE about "why would anyone take a picture like that?" We never been told exactly what these photos were of and why LE would have made that comment.
 
Everything about this case is MORE than VERY FRUSTRATING. Seems like each time I find something else to read about the case, there are more tidbits from somewhere in LE or said by someone who knew the family that make this case stink more and more.

We have to know that because some photos weren't referenced or released they indicate something smarmy to the case that couldn't be easily accepted in the public eye.
 
Iirc, the timeline was off for Patsy. She said John got up at 5:30 and showered and she got up shortly thereafter--5 minutes or so later. The time of the 911 call is indisputable (5:52 AM). Based on interviews with those in the home at the scene, Patsy would not have had nearly enough time to do all that she said she did in the manner she recalled it.
 
Iirc, the timeline was off for Patsy. She said John got up at 5:30 and showered and she got up shortly thereafter--5 minutes or so later. The time of the 911 call is indisputable (5:52 AM). Based on interviews with those in the home at the scene, Patsy would not have had nearly enough time to do all that she said she did in the manner she recalled it.

ITA, BOESP.She never got in and out of bed, or changed in and out of clothes, or redid hair and makeup. But to have not been a total mess when French showed up, surely she couldn't have been very physically active in all the movements of the crime, unless everything was completed early enough to allow her quite a bit of time to re-do herself, and also freshen up those same clothes. Possible, I guess.

I can imagine she might have fallen asleep somewhere while doing late packing and trip preps, especially having taken her antidepressant after having party wine. But, not for long, since letting her off the hook of writing the RN is really difficult. Not impossible, but very difficult.

The FBI called it first, the BPD was at the ready with charges. It is sickening that CORRUPTION and the MONEY it took to put the cogs in all the wheels of justice must be continuing to win out, even with all that Beckner knows is true and Garnett having a chance to become more important than he might ever imagine.
 
I'm only speculating but we had a discussion here many years ago about Patsy perhaps wore John's blue bathrobe to cover herself. The bathrobe is mentioned in, iirc, Steve Thomas's book and for the life of me I couldn't figure out it's importance unless either John or Patsy wore it that night (again, my speculation). Does anyone else remember this discussion?
 
I'm only speculating but we had a discussion here many years ago about Patsy perhaps wore John's blue bathrobe to cover herself. The bathrobe is mentioned in, iirc, Steve Thomas's book and for the life of me I couldn't figure out it's importance unless either John or Patsy wore it that night (again, my speculation). Does anyone else remember this discussion?

If Patsy had been wearing the blue robe, then her own fibers wouldn't have been found because the fleecy jacket would have been covered with the robe.
 

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