Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #8

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TW- there are only so many times I can explain

TW- there are only so many times and ways I can explain to you why I was- and still am- willing to listen to, think through, and even take for a ride the opinions and theories of others here , whether or not I begin or end with agreeing/accepting them.

I've used up all those times and ways, frankly, and just as frankly, I'm uncomfortable with you continuing to criticize other posters for not

I am also willing to listen. I simply disagree on those specific points. In other areas, I can agree with some of the same posters. You criticise other posters and disagree emphatically. Your anger and emotional responses don't serve you well. Equally, as frankly, Hope, I think you indulged the minority views as they fitted with your incorrect analysis of Travis. If that makes you uncomfortable - that is down to you. I thought you enjoyed debate as sport? Your own words. Above.

There is no need to have heated debate around these issues.
 
Or take your toys and leave the sandbox and go home.
What about when, at the OKC convention, the killer “accidentally” sent Travis a text she said was meant for a job prospect as a housekeeper for a man.
Travis hounded several times via text asking who the text was supposed to go to. I think 3 times he asked her. He accused her of flirting then as well, and she quoted him back what he had said to her - that her flirting (like his) was “innocent”.
Look no one is victim bashing and I think that is what angers you, H4M.
But both Travis & were flawed individuals who had this weird connection like it or not. It is what it is. Many people in relationships play games all the time during “courting”. Especially young ones. And Travis & DID play a lot of games.
It’s just that no one believes one of their partners in courtship are going to shoot them in the head, stab them 29 times, or slit their throat.
is evil. Travis was inherently good. This time Satan won.
 
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Salberg7:
"Look no one is victim bashing and I think that is what angers you, H4M.
But both Travis & were flawed individuals who had this weird connection like it or not. It is what it is. Many people in relationships play games all the time during “courting”. Especially young ones. And Travis & DID play a lot of games.
It’s just that no one believes one of their partners in courtship are going to shoot them in the head, stab them 29 times, or slit their throat.
is evil. Travis was inherently good. This time Satan won."

Says it all, for me. Very sad but true.
 
From my perspective, Travis did not have a huge problem abstaining from sex in consideration of his religion, yes he faltered with Deanna and admitted it to his Bishop and had his Temple Recommend suspended, I think that says a great deal about his character and adherence to his religion. came into his life and relentlessly chased him, gaslit him, used every female trick she could muster to get him in the sack, and he regretted it. Deeply. (And yes, that is one of the reasons I do not believe they slept together on the 4th).

But as Hope points out so correctly, since he believed he brought her into the temple and was responsible for her spiritual health he couldn't just throw her out, and she knew it and used it against him at every opportunity.

Her 'flirting' was very different than his was, and he came to recognize that, he gave her hell because on one hand she was laying all the guilt on him but in such an innocent 'I'd have been happy to cuddle' crappola way, but constantly trying to get him to continue a sexual relationship, even without the boundaries of a "relationship", which definitely went against his moral code. And lies and more lies about everything.

Sure he flirted, enjoyed it and owned it but he wasn't trying to bed every girl in the ward. He was her victim long before she killed him.
 
FWIW, the did not sent that text to Travis. Either Sky or Chris Hughes did, and they did so to mock the and her endless ploys & plots to wrap her tentacles around Travis. Travis knew who sent the text to him which is why he replied to both Sky & Chris.

As for the rest. The was and is a predator; had Travis been an altogether whole person when she went hunting, she would never have targeted him.

These covention texts made me believe TA didn’t care for . He just didn’t quite realize it. Then, sometimes he sounded insincere, e.g. when he said was a great gal, just not good for him. And he doubled down on that statement a moment or two later. He doesn’t sound like he really believes it. And at this point, he’s told his friends many of the crazy things she’s done AND he has affirmation for that from his friends right in the very moment of “She’s a great gal”.

He seems to override his feelings about the danger he’s in. History.... though his history also had him getting himself and his siblings away from childhood evil.
 
On Deanna, and commitment, and the fundamental decency & integrity of Travis Alexander...


I'm going to try to upload multiple photos of text that needs to be read in sequence (yes, I am being very bad ;), but I don't have the stamina to type all this up instead).
----

AARGH. Says each file is too large to upload? Each one is just a photo of what I pulled up my computer screen - the January 2007 email exchange between TA and the Hughes.

Am I going about uploading the wrong way somehow?
Put them in imgur or something? That’ll take screenshots. Easy for everyone to access, easy to set up.
 
I can certainly understand Hope's feelings when, she's immersed herself in Travis' world, literally watching as is taking everything from him he holds dear, feeling his pain and utter frustration. She wasn't just reciting, she was experiencing it all as she related it to us, and from a perspective of having personal knowledge of what he was going through.

And then some who have studied the case from the beginning weigh in and seem to have misunderstood what was at the heart of Travis and his travails at that time (as well as Travis himself). It likely wasn't the intention but to me it felt quite insensitive to Hope.
 
Pocket-

I'm determined to finish my thought/theory, and as succinctly as I'm able, lol.

Travis began regretting breaking up with Lisa even before the had left Mesa. The April texts & TA's journal of April reveal that same regret.

The relevant question imo is why Travis expressed regret then, and whether or not his regret was a reliable indication of how he actually felt about Lisa.

Throughout May, Travis became increasingly preoccupied with his breakup with Lisa, and increasingly depressed. He spoke of not being able to sleep for nights on end, of sitting in his dark room at night, despondent, and of not being able to focus on what he needed to get done.

In the days before he finally spoke with her by phone, he told his friends that he felt an absolute imperative to speak to Lisa, and to UNBURDEN HIMSELF to her. From what else he wrote, especially just before and just after he spoke with her, the unburdening he referred to had nothing to do with telling her he loved her or wished they hadn't broken up, or anything of the kind.

What Travis felt desperate to tell her was a confession, and the confession was that he had LIED TO HER. That he told Lisa he had lied, and what he had lied about, isn't speculation. It's fact.

What had he lied to her about? He had lied to her about what happened on one of the nights the had slashed tires, and about another night as well. On both nights, Travis had actually seen the in his/Lisa's parents' house, though he told Lisa he had not.

Why he lied to Lisa is a tangle I'm going to sidestep for now, and possibly forever, lol, at least when it comes to posting about it here.

The why of it isn't relevant to what I'm trying to express.

It is the fact that Travis lied to Lisa that matters, because it was the fact that he had lied to Lisa that had so tormented Travis for almost all of May.

Travis CAME CLEAN to Lisa, and felt "happy as a lark" afterwards. For a brief while.

's cresting of craziness fell squarely in this same timeframe. Travis tried to communicate to the that she needed to come clean (remember what he said to MariaM? About not being angry, but that she needed to come clean, that he would accept her no matter what, since she was a child of God? ) That was May 21 or 22.

I think Travis wanted to feel that way, and maybe he even did up until some point on the 25th, best guess.

What came exploding out of Travis on the 26th IMO was as much related to his own lying to Lisa as it was the lying to him.

Read the Gchat with that possibility in mind, and it reads very differently.

What he's expressing is his fury at realizing he had "sacrificed" so much of what he most valued for the , including his own integrity, honesty, and sense of self. And that he had done so for nothing and less than that, because all the reasons he had lied for her and to cover up her craziness to his friends were based on lies, start to finish, and told by a lying liar who refused to tell him the truth, even when he abjectly begged her to.
(Have lost the rest of this FOUR!!!!!TIMES! Grr.
 
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Last try at finishing, then oh well if not for the 5th time.

I don't think Travis felt guilt about what he said on the 26th, or regret at having said it. The very least of all do I believe he had any interest whatsoever in crawling back into the hell he has just broken out of.

From what I've learned about Travis over all these years, though, I think he had the self awareness, integrity, decency, and honesty to have thought over what he said on that day, very possibly feelings and awareness he hadn't fully articulated before, even to himself, and to have accepted responsiblity for his own failures, including the "loss" of Lisa.

Steve44 said years ago in what I think is the most succinct, apt, and perceptive post in any of these threads:

(Paraphrasing): " the mistake Travis made , that ultimately cost him his life, was to believe the ,like him, had a conscience. She did not."
 
Finished, and done. No more rabbit holes, no more hours & hours spent hauling over texts and journal entries, and no more interest in revisiting or rehashing or rethinking any dang thing related to the other than legal stuff related to her appeals. Freedom. :)
 
Finished, and done. No more rabbit holes, no more hours & hours spent hauling over texts and journal entries, and no more interest in revisiting or rehashing or rethinking any dang thing related to the other than legal stuff related to her appeals. Freedom. :)

Your arduous efforts are very much appreciated, Hope. Thanks to you I have a much clearer picture of everything that happened leading up to his murder, makes me despise the even more (never thought that could be possible) but also makes me understand and appreciate Travis all the more, and rue the day she ever set eyes upon him, of course. Thank you so much. :)
 
If you click on a poster's name you can choose 'start a conversation' but I don't know if that's private, guess you'll have to test it out.
I've tried this as a test. It might work if you don't put anyone except the recipient in the "conversation with" line.
 
Pocket-

I'm determined to finish my thought/theory, and as succinctly as I'm able, lol.

Travis began regretting breaking up with Lisa even before the had left Mesa. The April texts & TA's journal of April reveal that same regret.

The relevant question imo is why Travis expressed regret then, and whether or not his regret was a reliable indication of how he actually felt about Lisa.

Throughout May, Travis became increasingly preoccupied with his breakup with Lisa, and increasingly depressed. He spoke of not being able to sleep for nights on end, of sitting in his dark room at night, despondent, and of not being able to focus on what he needed to get done.

In the days before he finally spoke with her by phone, he told his friends that he felt an absolute imperative to speak to Lisa, and to UNBURDEN HIMSELF to her. From what else he wrote, especially just before and just after he spoke with her, the unburdening he referred to had nothing to do with telling her he loved her or wished they hadn't broken up, or anything of the kind.

What Travis felt desperate to tell her was a confession, and the confession was that he had LIED TO HER. That he told Lisa he had lied, and what he had lied about, isn't speculation. It's fact.

What had he lied to her about? He had lied to her about what happened on one of the nights the had slashed tires, and about another night as well. On both nights, Travis had actually seen the in his/Lisa's parents' house, though he told Lisa he had not.

Why he lied to Lisa is a tangle I'm going to sidestep for now, and possibly forever, lol, at least when it comes to posting about it here.

The why of it isn't relevant to what I'm trying to express.

It is the fact that Travis lied to Lisa that matters, because it was the fact that he had lied to Lisa that had so tormented Travis for almost all of May.

Travis CAME CLEAN to Lisa, and felt "happy as a lark" afterwards. For a brief while.

's cresting of craziness fell squarely in this same timeframe. Travis tried to communicate to the that she needed to come clean (remember what he said to MariaM? About not being angry, but that she needed to come clean, that he would accept her no matter what, since she was a child of God? ) That was May 21 or 22.

I think Travis wanted to feel that way, and maybe he even did up until some point on the 25th, best guess.

What came exploding out of Travis on the 26th IMO was as much related to his own lying to Lisa as it was the lying to him.

Read the Gchat with that possibility in mind, and it reads very differently.

What he's expressing is his fury at realizing he had "sacrificed" so much of what he most valued for the , including his own integrity, honesty, and sense of self. And that he had done so for nothing and less than that, because all the reasons he had lied for her and to cover up her craziness to his friends were based on lies, start to finish, and told by a lying liar who refused to tell him the truth, even when he abjectly begged her to.
(Have lost the rest of this FOUR!!!!!TIMES! Grr.
(Wow, what happened in here. I go out of the house for a few hours and I come back to a battle field)

Thank you so much for this analysis, Hope.

I re read the G chat.. I felt the excruciating pain and torment Travis must have been in. He not only was angry and upset with the for her lies but more than anything, he was angry and upset with himself. He blamed himself for caring for that piece of you know what, defending the lies she told, taking heat for her, and so sadly, losing Lisa because of HIS mistake.

He just wanted the to come clean to validate every emotion he was feeling at that time, anger, disappointment, dismay, regret, as well as the happy as a lark feeling after coming clean. Still she wouldn't do that for him. So cruel. Wow, I feel so heartbroken for Travis once again.
 
This is not factually correct, Hope. Travis actually called Arias his girlfriend on the sex tape. In his own words, we all heard it.

Salberg7's characterisation seems fair to me. Salberg7 is not claiming Travis did anything a normal guy of his age would not.

Succinctly: Travis was not a saint.

When Arias met Travis she was immediately immersed in the 'moral' narrative around Mormon men and relationships. Perhaps that was attractive to her as she may have seen it as easier to pin a man to marriage that way? Arias failed to take into consideration that offering sex so readily would exclude her from being marriage material.

Far from being irrelevant, Travis' could not meet the expectations and demands his church placed on him. Having Arias around allowed him to pursue the 'perfect' Mormon girl whilst having mutual 'dalliances' with Arias. Travis thought they had a mutual sex/friendship pact. That Arias bought the terms of this (because she appeared to). He knew that she was in love with him. Clearly, he wasn't with her. So, in that sense - it could be argued he used her. She used him - foolishly hoping she would find a way to gain ground - if only the women in between would go away. Morally, from a church perspective, they wee both hypocrites. So what? Many people cherry pick around faith or fail to meet their own standards. This does not detract from Arias' monstrous slaughter of a much loved young man. Nor does it make Travis that unusual amongst young men.
sorry this is stupid evaluation of there relationship IMO
 
JMO
It's true Travis was not a saint. Everyone can agree. It's also true (after June 2007) neither Travis nor described the situation they had a romantic relationship. When Travis uttered the girlfriend word, cued by to say it, he was describing pre-June 2007 relationship.

If Travis' intention was to use her as a sex partner while he searched for the perfect Mormon bride, he would have asked the to move to Mesa after their break up in 2007. He didn't. She moved against his horror.

If he was using her to have sex, he would have asked her to stay when moved back to Yreka in March 2008. He never asked her to stay.
 
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