Missing pregnant Shannon Watts and her two daughter's bodies found, husband arrested
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Sexual Abuse of JonBenet

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Solace, May 1, 2007.

  1. Solace

    Solace New Member

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  2. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    I happen to be on good terms with the guy who supplied much of that info.

    This got me:

     
  3. Solace

    Solace New Member

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    I found that interesting also, but it does not convince me.

    Yes, but then you have:

    1. "A number of genital anatomical features and hymenal measurements were described and found consistent with previous studies. An important finding was outward folding of the posterior hymenal rim in many girls, a feature that could be difficult to distinguish from attenuation of the posterior hymen. A gaping hymenal orifice, previously suggested to be a supportive sign of sexual abuse, was fairly frequently found and significantly associated with a large horizontal hymenal diameter." AK Myhre, K Berntzen, D Bratlid (2003). Genital anatomy in non-abused preschool girls. Acta Paediatrica 92 (12), 1453–1462. doi:10.1111/j.1651-2227.2003.tb00831.x
    And there is this,

    "There are doctors (even pediatricians) who claim that any inflammation of a little girl's vulva is a manifestation of sex abuse. Most, however, note that this is an extremely common finding and can result from sweat, tight pants, certain kinds of soap, and the occasional mild rubbing (sometimes masturbatory) activity of the normal girl."

    JonBenet wore all these tight fitting costumes; she had an ongoing rash from damp underwear - I just am skeptical of the allegations.
     
  4. mrsjonnob

    mrsjonnob New Member

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    Would rubbing (masturbatory or from irritation) caused a larger than normal hymenal opening? I would think that would be caused by penetration, not rubbing, irritation or chronic damp underwear. A rash, most certainly, and I think allegations of abuse on irritation alone would be presumptuous.
     
  5. Solace

    Solace New Member

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    A gaping hymenal orifice, previously suggested to be a supportive sign of sexual abuse, was fairly frequently found and significantly associated with a large horizontal hymenal diameter."
     
  6. mrsjonnob

    mrsjonnob New Member

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    One can find a study to support or discredit any position.

    I think a gaping hymenal opening, vaginal irritation, inflammation and daytime soiling could all very normal. However, in a case where a child is murdered and sexual abuse may have been a motive, those symptoms have to be looked at with greater scrutiny.
     
  7. Nuisanceposter

    Nuisanceposter Remembering Little Miss Christmas

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    That's an IDI argument - JonBenet's hymen was eroded and the opening enlarged because of bubble baths and rashes.

    I don't buy it. Irritation of the vulva and/or vagina from a rash does not cause a hymen to erode and the opening to enlarge. Perhaps if it could be proven that JonBenet's hymeneal measurement was in proportion to the rest of her vaginal/reproductive structure, I could see it....but otherwise, there are just too many signs that someone was molesting her to not draw that as the most likely conclusion as to why her measurements and structure seem abnormal.
     
  8. Albert18

    Albert18 New Member

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    Wouldn't these parents know that the surest way for the world to find out that JonBenet was being sexually abused would be to kill her? An autopsy would reveal everything.

    Wouldn't they also know medical examiners can date injuries? If you break a kids arm today, that won't hide the fact the arm was broken a month ago. So the idea they staged the sexual abuse to hide prior abuse is highly doubtful.
     
  9. Solace

    Solace New Member

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    It may be an IDI argument, but I am not so sure sexual abuse occurred and that is why I posted the site. I don't believe a rash can cause an enlarged hyman unless it does swell up the whole area as an infection might. But she did not have infections from what we know. We know she had rashes. A rash can cause irritation and a swollen vulva.

    However, the site does say the following:

    A gaping hymenal orifice, previously suggested to be a supportive sign of sexual abuse, was fairly frequently found and significantly associated with a large horizontal hymenal diameter."

    I think this is important because the suggestion that she was abused is an important one. I don't think she was, sexually that is. I think you could call the pageants abuse, no doubt. And I think the fact that Patsy was douching her daily is abuse. But I just don't feel that there is enough evidence to prove that JB was sexually abuse, just mo.
     
  10. mrsjonnob

    mrsjonnob New Member

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    I think routinely douching a 6 year old is sexual abuse and could totally explain the enlarged hymenal opening. I wasn't aware of that fact.
     
  11. Nuisanceposter

    Nuisanceposter Remembering Little Miss Christmas

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    You know, Solace, one of the things that gets me about the question of was JonBenet sexually abused, is that I don't think Patsy's response to hearing of evidence of prior abuse is one of a mother who had no idea at all that someone may have been doing something to her daughter. I don't have it on hand, but she just doesn't seem that surprised to me at hearing there was evidence that JonBenet had been molested before the night she was killed.

    All the doctor visits, with that weird Dr Beuf, the school nurse visits, the three calls in one day that Patsy can't recall the topic of, the sexualization, the toileting issues, the abnormal structure....plus Patsy's lack of shock at hearing of suspected prior abuse....the story that she had changed when she came back from that Texas trip......I really think maybe someone was doing something nasty to JonBenet. I have no idea who.
     
  12. Nuisanceposter

    Nuisanceposter Remembering Little Miss Christmas

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    Maybe the douching was tied into someone abusing her. Patsy psychologically undoing the abuse she knew was happening by cleansing. Just a thought.
     
  13. Solace

    Solace New Member

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    Believe me I am not defending Patsy, but she did act shocked about it and very angry. Maybe she is not as shocked as you would expect. But she is definitely upset that he tells her about this.
     
  14. Solace

    Solace New Member

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    That is my point. I think it could also. Linda Hoffman Paugh, their housekeeper, said it was daily that she heard JonBenet and Patsy in the bathroom with JonBenet crying and Patsy yelling at her. She could be exaggerating but I think it was going on and also Colorado who use to post here said she knew it was said to be a big issue, the douching - by people who knew the Ramseys. Of course that is hearsay, but she lives in Boulder and might know more than most of us who do not.
     
  15. mrsjonnob

    mrsjonnob New Member

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    If this is the case, then the question is WHY? Was she doing it because she thought JB was dirty or was she trying to cleanse her from suspected abuse by a male person?

    What a sad life that poor girl had.
     
  16. Solace

    Solace New Member

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    Well she did have ovarian cancer and probably had a few paranoias about that and JonBenet did have ongoing rashes and was always damp and Patsy mentioned that to her friend that she was concerned about her underwear always being damp and the rashes. So maybe she thought she was cleaning her and as Steve Thomas said it might have been "corporal punishment" - to mean - everytime you do this, you are going to get douched because this is what I have to do to make sure that you stay clean. That is how I see it.
     
  17. mrsjonnob

    mrsjonnob New Member

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    That is some twisted thinking on PR's part if that was the case. How does one believe that inserting a douche into a 6 yr old's body would clear up a skin rash? She must have had some major resentment issues towards JB. I don't know anyone who douches their child. That is just disgusting.
     
  18. Solace

    Solace New Member

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    I agree with you. But look at what she does. She puts her in pageants. I know there are a lot of people who do it, but it is in the "worst" interest of the child. And Patsy and John both knew this and Patsy's friends were about to embark on an intervention with Patsy about this. So she is extremely selfish and is living vicariously through her. So it would not surprise me to see her using douches on JonBenet, especially if she had ongoing rashes, which the douches is aiding and abetting by drying her out. So she had to be completely uncomfortable and all the tight fitting outfits have to be driving her crazy.

    The more I think about this case, the more I think Steve Thomas is right on about everything. I have been back and forth full circle and now I am back to agreeing with Steve on everything from the way the murder happened to the corporal punishment and they vehemently went after him. He is not the only one who wrote a book, Hodges wrote two blaming Patsy, Wecht wrote one and it was a doozy, his theory. But they vehemently went after Thomas and I think it is because he was a detective on the case and he got too close to the truth. I don't want to sound like a conspiracy monger, but why not go after Cyril Wecht as viciously. He says there was a sex act going on that night. That is a whole lot worse than a rage accident. But know they go after Thomas. Any thoughts. I think he got very close to the what happened.
     
  19. mrsjonnob

    mrsjonnob New Member

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    I definately do not believe they were having a sex party or pimping out JB in some underground pedo ring thing.

    I do think it's possible JR was molesting JB...but knowing about the douches, it is entirely possible PR inflicted those injuries on JB.

    The part I can't wrap my brain around is one parent covering for another unless they felt they could be exposed for something too. I think either PR had something on JR or JR just didn't care that much for his daughter and he was worried more about his image and his business and what would happen if it became public that his wife killed their child.
     
  20. Toltec

    Toltec New Member

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    Penetration causes the hymen to be broken...not masturbation.
     

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