Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. #2

fred&edna

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I think there's a great idea in there - it would be terrific to have a thread solely dedicated to what's known about the whole SG affair, so that people could refer to it instead of having to wade through so many pages, sometimes mistaking rumors or discredited info as fact. I see there's a reference type of page stickied for the LISK case as a whole, but there's not much mention of SG there (and maybe there shouldn't be, but that's the debate in a nutshell, I guess). I'm not sure the format of a message board lends itself to a timeline that incorporates all the known info (and the links and sources of verification for each bit of info), but it would sure be handy.


Yes, it IS a great idea AND It's really already here :) There are "threads" dedicated to different topics, each victim, possible victims, etc. and the first page usually provides links to media reports. The amount of information is overwhelming. I'm still fairly new and I'm still learning! But, with a little time spent learning the layout, you won't waste as much time paging through posts that are of no interest to you. I'm not the best at explaining things, there are other "really smart cookies" around here that would be glad to help, just ask! If you want to just read about SG... look for "SG" in the title of the thread. I think there are 4 pages of threads?

And, sometimes I just google my search terms including the word "websleuths".
 

Seajay

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"Bolding" mine. Some people might read all zillion pages of posts here, or do searches of the material, before asking a question, and that's great. But they're not required to do that, and people aren't supposed to tell them to do that. If someone asks a question that's been covered before, there's probably people here who will answer it for them; similarly, people who want to ignore the question are free to do that too. My two cents.

BBM, I did EXACTLY that! It took me over a month to read through threads here to get acquainted with the case. I had to wade through a lot of chit chat, b.s. and rumor to try to glean out the factual information.

What is blowing my mind now is that when I post about something that was proven and linked in these threads during my month of reading, I'm being told they are not facts nor proven, when sure as shootin, there were links to support them at the time.

Frankly, I've been very intimidated to post here because of all this. I'm afraid to ask a question, I'm afraid to make a factual statement based on previous links posted and discusssion on it because every time I do, someone questions the challenges it's factuality. I had thought if it was already proven and linked, it was now assumed as fact there and not questioned as fact any longer. I'm confused.
 

Seajay

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Yes, it IS a great idea AND It's really already here :) There are "threads" dedicated to different topics, each victim, possible victims, etc. and the first page usually provides links to media reports. The amount of information is overwhelming. I'm still fairly new and I'm still learning! But, with a little time spent learning the layout, you won't waste as much time paging through posts that are of no interest to you. I'm not the best at explaining things, there are other "really smart cookies" around here that would be glad to help, just ask! If you want to just read about SG... look for "SG" in the title of the thread. I think there are 4 pages of threads?

And, sometimes I just google my search terms including the word "websleuths".

The problem with the "Fact" threads, eventually, people start speculating and then rumor is added and it's no longer all fact.
 

Redbird

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The problem with the "Fact" threads, eventually, people start speculating and then rumor is added and it's no longer all fact.

I think it is really commendable that you took the time to read through all the threads. I think in the beginning there was a great deal of concern about sticking to the facts and correcting misinformation. By now there is just so much material people stopped trying to correct it all and yes they started getting attacked so much they just quit, at least I did. The bickering became so fierce at one point it started being unpleasant to read or post. Right now I think things have simmered down a bit. I don't think we need any more threads devoted to SG. I don't really think there is any way to completely solve this problem. You can't have a thread devoted to "just the facts", someone tried that and that only leads to more arguing about what is a fact. I think if people can stick to the TOS rules things can improve.
 

PreciousDust

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Yes, it IS a great idea AND It's really already here :)
There's no coherent timeline of SG on the site, with known facts (and only known facts) linked to along the way. That's why people are always saying "Wait, did that happen?". There is no "reference" material section.

Frankly, I've been very intimidated to post here because of all this. I'm afraid to ask a question, I'm afraid to make a factual statement based on previous links posted and discusssion on it because every time I do, someone questions the challenges it's factuality.
Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. Some "facts" are just misrepresentations that a reporter made and which get repeated until they might as well be true, other "facts" are what one witness or another said and which are highly suspect because of lack of credibility. If that could all be sorted out (even mentioning the dicey "facts" with an asterisk or someting), then a new reader would have a chance to make some sense of it; maybe the old hands would even get a new perspective on something.

You can't have a thread devoted to "just the facts", someone tried that and that only leads to more arguing about what is a fact.
Maybe, but it just seems such a jumble for someone trying to dig into the info for the first time - there's gotta be a better way than reading through 60 pages of the first SG thread, then this one, then all the other threads that contain SG info.
 

fred&edna

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BBM, I did EXACTLY that! It took me over a month to read through threads here to get acquainted with the case. I had to wade through a lot of chit chat, b.s. and rumor to try to glean out the factual information.

What is blowing my mind now is that when I post about something that was proven and linked in these threads during my month of reading, I'm being told they are not facts nor proven, when sure as shootin, there were links to support them at the time.

Frankly, I've been very intimidated to post here because of all this. I'm afraid to ask a question, I'm afraid to make a factual statement based on previous links posted and discusssion on it because every time I do, someone questions the challenges it's factuality. I had thought if it was already proven and linked, it was now assumed as fact there and not questioned as fact any longer. I'm confused.


It IS a tough crowd, no doubt about that. But, not everyone here is a bully!
 

fred&edna

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There's no coherent timeline of SG on the site, with known facts (and only known facts) linked to along the way. That's why people are always saying "Wait, did that happen?". There is no "reference" material section.

Maybe, but it just seems such a jumble for someone trying to dig into the info for the first time - there's gotta be a better way than reading through 60 pages of the first SG thread, then this one, then all the other threads that contain SG info.

Well, maybe you could try creating something like that? There's a lot of information but it sounds like you might just know how to organize it. Again, I bet those moderators could help :D
 

Redbird

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One big problem is the newsreports, videos, etc. that had facts as close as you were going to get are now gone so those of us that have been here since the beginning have nothing but our notes to rely on and when someone says show us the link, a lot of the time we can't. It's gone. And frankly, there aren't many facts. We have almost none from LE and the SK and POI's are not sharing their facts. Almost nothing was witnessed by reliable people. Plus people are afraid to talk.
 

Seajay

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One big problem is the newsreports, videos, etc. that had facts as close as you were going to get are now gone so those of us that have been here since the beginning have nothing but our notes to rely on and when someone says show us the link, a lot of the time we can't. It's gone. And frankly, there aren't many facts. We have almost none from LE and the SK and POI's are not sharing their facts. Almost nothing was witnessed by reliable people. Plus people are afraid to talk.

That's the other problem, these people are all prostitutes, pimps, johns and drivers, all criminals or breaking the law, so many people here do not take their word for anything, citing them as unreliable and not credible. Yet for the most part, we don't have anyone else who is talking. I've watched several LISK mystery shows in TV and these people have told their stories on camera, yet we cannot consider them reliable? At all??

Then what is?? Just LE, who we have also discussed here that can lie to us all they want and not tell us anything they don't want us to know. So now where do we go with this??? What do we really have??? Pretty much nothing then.
 

Theforeigner

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There's no coherent timeline of SG on the site, with known facts (and only known facts) linked to along the way. That's why people are always saying "Wait, did that happen?". There is no "reference" material section.


Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. Some "facts" are just misrepresentations that a reporter made and which get repeated until they might as well be true, other "facts" are what one witness or another said and which are highly suspect because of lack of credibility. If that could all be sorted out (even mentioning the dicey "facts" with an asterisk or someting), then a new reader would have a chance to make some sense of it; maybe the old hands would even get a new perspective on something.


Maybe, but it just seems such a jumble for someone trying to dig into the info for the first time - there's gotta be a better way than reading through 60 pages of the first SG thread, then this one, then all the other threads that contain SG info.

I posted a timeline on SG, and tryed to make it as factaul I could, but sure there are probably info in the timeline that in fact is not true.

Anyway here is a link to the SG Timeline thread:

Shannan gilbert timeline - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
 

PreciousDust

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I posted a timeline on SG, and tryed to make it as factaul I could, but sure there are probably info in the timeline that in fact is not true.

Anyway here is a link to the SG Timeline thread:

Shannan gilbert timeline - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

That's just an outrageously good timeline, and I think it (the timeline, not the rest of the thread, even though that's good as well) should be a Sticky thread just like the "Maps, etc." one. Just the timeline. Maybe, because there's an editing time limit, the "keeper of the timeline" (you, or anyone who feels up to it, but not me because I'm pretty ignorant about the case), just posts a new timeline periodically to reflect changes, which obviously supersedes the older ones. And no one besides the "keeper" posts to the thread, instead offering suggestions or "new" info in the regular threads, which the "keeper" can accept or reject after due consideration. I don't know, just thinking out loud but, again, I think it could be helpful.
 

Justiceforever

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Do we know why Pak started being her driver and Diaz quit? I find that interesting.
 

Redbird

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One idea I have had about the Lisk. Several have mentioned they think the victim was stalked and grabbed AFTER turning a trick. We know that all of these girls have been arrested at some time or other. If the LISK had access to their arrest records it would not be hard for him to have gone through the ads in Craigslist, Backpage, etc. and figured out the names they were using and their phone number. He could have then made a date or just watched them if their police record addresses were real. In particular Maureen Brainard-Barnes's records showed that a Staten Island officer was one of the last people to contact her. I would think a police surgeon would also have access to arrest records. It keeps coming up that the girls may have left their phones behind because they trusted a cop.
http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/05/staten_island_cop_contacted_ca.html
 

Tugela

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There's no coherent timeline of SG on the site, with known facts (and only known facts) linked to along the way. That's why people are always saying "Wait, did that happen?". There is no "reference" material section.


Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. Some "facts" are just misrepresentations that a reporter made and which get repeated until they might as well be true, other "facts" are what one witness or another said and which are highly suspect because of lack of credibility. If that could all be sorted out (even mentioning the dicey "facts" with an asterisk or someting), then a new reader would have a chance to make some sense of it; maybe the old hands would even get a new perspective on something.


Maybe, but it just seems such a jumble for someone trying to dig into the info for the first time - there's gotta be a better way than reading through 60 pages of the first SG thread, then this one, then all the other threads that contain SG info.

The problem is that often some facts are dismissed because they don't conform to popular opinion, and other times rumors/speculation are accepted as fact because they conform to popular opinion (or whatever opinion any particular poster happens to have). People tend to focus on their theory rather than what the facts show.

In a case like this where there really are not a lot of facts known in the first place, it tends to muddy the water, hence all the cat fights that seem to break out here regularly. Any case where not much is known is going to be a prime candidate for lots of speculation and fiercely contested opinions.
 

Tugela

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Do we know why Pak started being her driver and Diaz quit? I find that interesting.

Probably because he got the money anyway, and there is less risk of being arrested by LE while sitting on a couch watching TV than in driving an escort around to do her business.
 

alaskanblue

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What do we know, then? Who went to JB's car? I heard he left for 15 minutes with Shannan in tow. Did he offer that information? Pak? What's the scoop? That length of time would lead me to believe he was meeting somebody at the gate or visiting somebody house.

I wonder if LE ever seized the phone records of all the OB residents just to see who else was up in the middle of the night talking on the phone when everybody else was zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz sleeping. What about the Dj? The OB resident who accidentally erased the security tape?

Excellent questions Adler, I've been wondering about alot of this myself recently. I'm especially interested in the phone records of all of the OB residents, I'm sure they'd be extremely revealing.
 

NoviceSleuth

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Thinking about JB and SG leaving his house by car that night for 15 minutes and not leaving the gated community, where could they have gone? Then later that night SG runs out of JB's house in fear of her life and runs to the first lighted house (GC's) and then runs and hides under his boat before taking a right and running down Anchor Way at least as far as BB's house. If she wanted to get to the road lights of Ocean Parkway as the police believe, she would have made a left from GC's boat and run through the gate and out of Oak Beach to Ocean Parkway. GC's house is the first house in the community and IMO the lights of Ocean Parkway would have been visable and close to where SG was at the time.
What made her take a right and run down Anchor Way? Maybe she was trying to retrace the route JB and she took earlier that night. Wherever they went I believe SG, in her mind at that time, thought it might be a safe haven for her. All we know is that BB's house was the last place SG was seen alive and IMO is "on the way" to wherever JB took SG earlier. Any thoughts? That is the only reason I could think of SG not running out of Oak Beach towards the lights of Ocean Parkway as the police believe she was trying to do.
 

NoviceSleuth

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PS - Several POI's have been mentioned in posts previously on this site that live/lived or have/had homes located after passing BB's house in Oak Beach - CPH, SY, BA. Any others?
 

Adler

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PS - Several POI's have been mentioned in posts previously on this site that live/lived or have/had homes located after passing BB's house in Oak Beach - CPH, SY, BA. Any others?

Yes, I posted another name but it was clipped by the mod. I wonder if we should summarize what evidence LE probably has and reconsider posting if we think this may jeopardize their investigation. What do you think? Any LE on this thread allowed to comment?

As I see it, LE probably has:

*hard drive from security camera

*SG's jacket with trace DNA

*phone records from all on OB

*results from lie detector tests from those who could not weasel out of them

*evidence that SG did not remove her skinny jeans and shoes before deciding to run through the marsh, i.e., that she did not run through the marsh at all

*911 recordings

*evidence to show that SG was probably murdered but

*not enough evidence for an arrest

I'm with Truth--I think much will depend on identifying those other bodies found by the Ocean Parkway. When that happens, what would be now a flimsy case might be better fortified and substantial beyond circumstantial. Also, I think some new science in the future might become a legitimate tool in a court of law then--unfortunately not now.

Thank you all for responding to the posts. Welcome back Joyce. Any LE on this thread care to comment? We and the rest of the world await you. Should we refrain from posting for the sake of your case?
 

Maddalenasgirl

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Yes, I posted another name but it was clipped by the mod. I wonder if we should summarize what evidence LE probably has and reconsider posting if we think this may jeopardize their investigation. What do you think? Any LE on this thread allowed to comment?

As I see it, LE probably has:

*hard drive from security camera

*SG's jacket with trace DNA

*phone records from all on OB

*results from lie detector tests from those who could not weasel out of them

*evidence that SG did not remove her skinny jeans and shoes before deciding to run through the marsh, i.e., that she did not run through the marsh at all

*911 recordings

*evidence to show that SG was probably murdered but

*not enough evidence for an arrest

I'm with Truth--I think much will depend on identifying those other bodies found by the Ocean Parkway. When that happens, what would be now a flimsy case might be better fortified and substantial beyond circumstantial. Also, I think some new science in the future might become a legitimate tool in a court of law then--unfortunately not now.

Thank you all for responding to the posts. Welcome back Joyce. Any LE on this thread care to comment? We and the rest of the world await you. Should we refrain from posting for the sake of your case?


I spent time with a friend of mine today who majored and worked as an Anthropologist. When I told her that Shannan was missing her hyoid bone upon discovery of her remains and LE declared the death inconclusive she was amazed. She responded instinctually suggesting that the killer may have taken as a souvenir? I countered saying that the killer removed the hyoid bone to cover up the crime so the outcome would be "inconclusive" Howeve, this is coming from someone completely opposite of me-a "facts person". I realize that the facts solve crimes but instincts can lead LE in the right direction to start digging for the facts. Why does it seem like the horse is being led to water and refusing to drink, so to speak?
 
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