Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. What do you think?

Discussion in 'LISK CLOSED General Discussion Threads' started by Seaslug44, Dec 14, 2011.

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  1. alaskanblue

    alaskanblue Member

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    Was really disappointed to hear about the news Shannan's death being ruled inconclusive. Nothing really surprises me anymore...I wonder if they tested the bone marrow for diatoms? Couldn't they at the very least determine how long the body was in the water at that location? That'd be a fairly important piece of evidence is it's possible. So two bones were missing from her neck, what do the rest of you think? Is it an indication that she was strangled and/or they missed them in the search? Or perhaps was taken elsewhere for awhile? Another detail--was her body wrapped in burlap or not? I seem to recall that it wasn't.

    PS-I was writing while you posted Peter, very good questions on how the diatoms would enter the bone marrow. How would you distinguish between the two, indeed? Drowning or sitting in the same body of water? Very good question...
     


  2. dcgrumpy

    dcgrumpy New Member

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    Personally I don't think the missing bones mean much. First of all I haven't read whether those were the only bones missing or were they the only bones that the lawyer mentioned. Second, what would the theory be? that the SK waited until the body completely decomposed and then went back and removed just those two bones. That seems unlikely to me. JMHO of course.

    I would think not. If she were wrapped in burlap they would know as soon as they found her that there was foul play involved.
     
  3. truthspider

    truthspider New Member

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    http://www.news12.com/articleDetail.jsp?articleId=318111&position=1&news_type=news

    "Lawyer: Shannan Gilbert's autopsy report inconclusive

    (05/01/12) OAK BEACH - Two years ago to the day after Shannan Gilbert went missing in Oak Beach, her mother and sisters met with the Suffolk County Medical Examiner.

    A lawyer for Gilbert's mother says the results of the autopsy report they received today are inconclusive. Originally, police had said they believed Gilbert had drowned in the swampy area of Oak Beach. However, the attorney says the report contains no evidence of that.

    The report shows that Gilbert had no traces of cocaine in her system, although the Gilberts' lawyer says that was the only drug her remains were tested for.

    Gilbert's mother, Mari, said after the meeting that she's "more frustrated and angry than ever." She was hoping for something more substantial, but instead, she says she feels betrayed by investigators."
     
  4. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    Thanks! But thinking twice of it, how would the bone come into the bone marrow of the victim anyway. Someone drowns, life ends in a few minutes. No way any biological process can bring diatoms into a bone, which is closed at this moment. The marrow is inside. My guess is, the doctor said two things, one about bone marrow and one about diatoms to a journalist and said journalist mixed it together, not bothering about understanding anything of it.

    The process has to be )in my opinion):
    - a person drowns
    Which technically can happen in two ways, wet drowning and dry drowning. Wet drowning, of course, means, water or any other liquid, comes into the lung and interrupts the normal breathing. Which can take several minutes.
    Dry drowning, as sometimes also seen in diving accidents, means, there is a cramp preventing the water from coming into the lungs. But the cramp of the bronchi also prevents air from coming in. So it's rather a kind of asphyxiation. Then, obviously, an ME wouldn't find water in the lungs at all.

    - the person lies in the water
    but since the person doesn't breath anymore, there is no way, additional diatoms come into the lungs. However, additional diatoms can be found all over the outside of the bidy.

    - the water dries out
    We talk here about a rather wet area, but latest in the relative hot summer months, the water is reduced to puddles. Means, all diatoms on the bodies outside, dry out and die. The diatoms inside won't make it also, but they will hang on a little longer.

    - the person decomposes
    After some times, all soft tissue is gone. That includes the lungs. Remains of the dried out diatoms in them will maybe, depending on the position of the body, settle down on bones either in the back, front, or side of the rib cage. Technically, they would follow the pull of the gravity and just fall down, what bones ever are under them. Since bones at this time may split open, I can't say, it's entirely impossible, if the body for example lays on the back, that some few dead diatoms also fall inside a split bone.
    However, remember, the whole outside of the body was covered in the very same diatoms as those inside the lungs. They also dried out and dies. Now, with the tissue gone, they also settle down - on every bone, they fall on. So there si in my opinion, no reasonable way, to distinguish between a diatom inhaled during the process of drowning and one sticking to the skin of the chest since that event. And after those summer months, the diatoms are dead anyway and by that subject to decomposition as well.

    - The water returns
    The winter comes, not much snow there, more rain on the East Coast. Rain water of course, can also hold diatoms from other sources. Since the estimation in which body of water a person drowned, is basically mapping the mix of different types of diatoms (kind of a diatom mix finger print of a body of water), this will shift the picture when rain falls on the remains. It's like diatoms from maybe pretty far away visit and stay on the remains.
    Then, in Spring, the area gets a little flooded. More rain, the puddles grow again. The remains get wet again, this time from a mix containing diatom population from the puddles around and more rainwater. Now "diatoms" is a generic term. Technically, depending on which body of water, it can be a dozen or more different family members. Since the first diatoms were inhaled by the victims, this community of diatoms has lost some members and won some new ones by the means of rain and flooding. So at this time, the diatom mix on the remains and in the nearby puddle will differ because the diatoms in the water are alive and become more, the balance will shift again over the next months due to Darwinistic processes. But all of that won't happen on the human remains nearby. Because the second layer of diatoms has settled down there and will die as soon as the water goes back in summer.

    - the water goes away
    Summer again ... remains fall dry, the next year of diatoms dies on all bones.

    - Fall again
    More rain, more diatoms from other sources

    - Winter
    LE finally finds the remains. In the meantime, two seasons worth of diatoms settled down on the body, the second years directly on the bones.

    Lets face this, if I would be a juror and Dr. Baden would tell me, he determined in this case drowning, he would better deliver some good explaining how that is supposed to work before I buy into it. And keep in mind, I actually think, she drowned or died there due to the circumstances (I wouldn't exclude heart attack after drug abuse that night either).

    Peter
     
  5. MrsPC

    MrsPC Well-Known Member

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    what's interesting to me is they still did not say if they were releasing the remains to the family...if not, are they still working on the autopsy???
     
  6. truthspider

    truthspider New Member

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    I think the FBI are running this case, and unlike the SCPD, they have no problem lying and hiding information from the family of the victims until the case is closed. I think the fbi had the remains then gave them back to the SCPD to give back to the family, which is why it took so long.
    I think the missing finger bones and neck bones are probably in the possession of the FBI or tucked into SK's tighty whiteys.


    http://www.newsday.com/long-island/...lbert-s-cause-of-death-undetermined-1.3692324

    "Tuesday, he said the family was surprised by some of the details they learned during their meeting with Suffolk Medical Examiner Yvonne Milewski, including that Gilbert's skeletal remains were intact except for tiny bones missing from her fingers and toes, and two key bones from her neck.

    "Now that's significant," said Ray, adding that the missing bones from Gilbert's neck would have helped determine if she had been strangled."
     
  7. MrsPC

    MrsPC Well-Known Member

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    responding to my own post...I see now with a link that Truthspider posted in another thread shows that the family wants more hair & bone marrow testing done

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7863008&postcount=152"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Victim - Megan Waterman[/ame]
     
  8. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    If so, someone better call the Guiness Book ... that has to be the slowest autopsy eeeeveeeeerr!

    Peter
     
  9. MrsPC

    MrsPC Well-Known Member

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    Peter - I posted just above you -- looks like the family still wants more testing done.
     
  10. alaskanblue

    alaskanblue Member

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    dcgrumpy-very good point on the bones, I doubt the SK came back and removed them. I wonder if those were the only missing ones too. And yes, that makes perfect sense, if she was wrapped in burlap there wouldn't be any talk of an accident by LE. I'm still very much on the fence whether or not Shannan was a victim of the GB4 killer. (not sold on the Manorville killer being responsible for the Gilgo Beach murders as well) I think there is some possibility of her doing some "paradoxical undressing" which would explain why her pants were not with her body. Here's a good link on it:

    http://www.survivaltopics.com/paradoxical-undressing/

    Peter--I'm wasn't totally clear on how many ways diatoms would get into the bone marrow. I googled "how diatoms enter blood marrow" and came up with this link:

    http://www.forensicindia.com/icfmt/web/vol3no3/publication.htm

    From what I can determine from the article, it appears they enter the blood marrow via the rupturing of the lung alveoli during drowning but not after the victim has died. So you're correct (I just re-read your great post). So no respiration, no diatoms in the marrow. Good point on the different sources of water coming into the marsh, as a result there wouldn't be any way to match the diatom mix.

    MOO
     
  11. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    Now, that solves one mystery.

    And that solves the next one. Basically the diatoms would reach the marrow by the way through the capillaries. Since the hearts beats on for a little time, this makes sense. So I correct myself, it can happen in a wet drowning process if the drowning takes more than four or five minutes (just a rough estimation). However, it doesn't bring the the problem of the different layers of diatoms off the table. And, reading this article, it appears all cross checks are based on intact tissue, which in this case isn't given.
    Now I really hope, Dr. Baden is hired by the Gilberts. I so want to see him put the money where his mouth was.
    Alaskanblue: Nice work!

    Peter
     
  12. MrsPC

    MrsPC Well-Known Member

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    The latest NY Post article is stating that it was definitely Gilbert's hyoid bone/s that were missing as per Mari's attorney.

    How weird is that???
     
  13. MrsPC

    MrsPC Well-Known Member

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    surely the ME has been aware of "missing bones" for quite some time....they've had Gilbert's remains for 4 1/2 months.

    But, I haven't heard of any other searches that took place where her remains were found to possibly look for any missing bones.

    Does that strike anyone else as weird????
     
  14. BKS

    BKS Sleuthhound

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    I don't claim to be an expert but, what is missing seems to be giving us more clues then what was found!
     
  15. MrsPC

    MrsPC Well-Known Member

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    I also don't understand....

    if Mari Gilbert is as disappointed with Suffolk County as the articles imply, why did they not take the remains & just have an independent autopsy done? I don't believe it's that expensive, and considering all the press this case has had, I imagine there would be ME's or experts out there that would do this pro-bono.

    It makes no sense to me that they would let the Suffolk Cnty ME keep the remains.
     
  16. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    Thyroid bones are small bones, so I would suspect a small animal or a bird. Also because no big animals are around, but a lot of birds from the bird sanctuary.
    The other option would be, a merely assumed killer would have waited till the body was deteriorated enough to take the bone out without leaving tool marks.

    Peter
     
  17. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    A broken thyroid bone is a sign of strangulation. So, since that bone isn't recovered, the door is open to specualte about a killer, who maybe has killed her.

    Peter
     
  18. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    First thing, they can't just take the remains. They are part of an ongoing investigation, so the ME can't even give them remains if he wants, he needs the green light from LE.
    Second thing, an autopsy costs about $2200 to $3500 (according to the NAS price list) depending on what type, completeness and other circumstances. However, experts with high reputation and not bound by NAS politics in that matter, can easily go for five or even ten times of that amount. Add lab tests to it, and there you go. It's not pocket change.

    Peter
     
  19. MrsPC

    MrsPC Well-Known Member

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    I keep going back to the SK's comments to Melissa Barthelemy's sister -

    "I'm going to watch her body rot"

    with this hyoid bone gone...it seems he is indeed watching them rot IMO
     
  20. truthspider

    truthspider New Member

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    lisk strangles sg, lisk hides sg's remains somewhere they won't be found, too much heat is on lisk so he thinks it will be better if she is found and her death is chalked up to an accident (guilty people overthink things), lisk removes evidence of homicide and places remains where they will be found, liks creates reason to re-search a previously searched area.

    you should now know lisk is local, has anatomical knowledge as well as the previously announced knowledge of police investigations.....
     
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