Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. What do you think?

[Peter Brendt]

I don't have to hear things. I have the ability to logically conclude on the basis of evidence. You sleuths need to get past having to be spoon fed everything. Where are all the laptops, the recordings, etc? Oh that's right, they are with the fbi. The SCPD are merely a terrible public relations division at this point.

fbi to scpd: "make the media get away from oak beach, tell them she drown or something."
scpd to public: "uhh she went in there and expired, I mean drown, I mean quicksand"
scpd to fbi: "we need the bones back the family's trying to sue"
fbi to scpd: "christ, ok 2 more months, but we need to keep the fingers and hyoid for evidence"

So the other missing bone is a finger? A finger from her neck, right? Where did you get that? :floorlaugh:
Seriously, I agree, the FBI had the fingers on the bones, but not the whole time. The BAU is supporting, but usually not doing the legwork. And about their profile 101 (white loner in a basement between 10 an 99 years old) one could debate. And the rest of your last post is once more pure assumption. So, please don't forget our beer bet when this is all over (if it will be over before we all die from old age).

Peter

 

[fred&edna]

Well, they could have been smarter, especially in their search operations. That would have led to an earlier discovery of the remains and therefore better chances, to nail the COD.
But then, there is not much, that actually indicates foul play beyond the point of a drug party gone wrong. She was a borderline patient, I read here on the board months ago. She had a history of drug abuse. She was in an environment in which the drugs didn't come from her own stash.
And the undressing thing? Happens so often, there is even a term for itaradoxical Undressing. I think, it was AlaskanBlue, who posted that link first:
http://www.survivaltopics.com/paradoxical-undressing/
Interesting read.
So by all means, not much really indicating foul play. However, you are right, LE could have done more, or even better, the same, only in the right order and faster. But then, in SK cases round the World, I have studied, I saw always this first phase of "egg-dance".

Peter

With regard to the paradoxical undressing... If she was in a state of hypothermia causing her to remove her clothes at point A (where they were found) would she actually have the physical ability and mental capacity to continue moving on to point B (where she was found)?? That's seems quite the distance if she was already suffering such a level of hypothermia.

 

[Seaslug44]

The Suffolk County PD does not function like a police squad we might find on a prime time television drama. There has never been any evidence in any case where they have knowingly played head games (like removing a bone from a victim's remains and then lying about it to trap a suspect).

What you see is what you get with this department. If the bones are with the FBI, they would simply say so. There is nothing to gain by hiding that kind of assistance. The department also would not be employing the special homicide task force with unlimited overtime for this case if it was secretly in the hands of the FBI (especially with the County now in a state of a self-declared fiscal emergency).

 

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

i won't forget your beer bet - i want to go toooooooo

let's all go........when its all over and said and done..........

tkm

 

[AmandaReckonwith]

I've updated the Shannan Gilbert section of the OP Murders.

http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Ocean%20Parkway%20Long%20Island%20Murders%20%20-NY-/Shannan%20Gilbert%20%20-NJ-/

 

[Peter Brendt]

With regard to the paradoxical undressing... If she was in a state of hypothermia causing her to remove her clothes at point A (where they were found) would she actually have the physical ability and mental capacity to continue moving on to point B (where she was found)?? That's seems quite the distance if she was already suffering such a level of hypothermia.

That reminds me to that English guy who messed up on the Mt. Everest. They found him like 60 years later, almost eight miles from his pants. I have to look up, where this story was, it's like twenty years ago, I read them in a book.

Peter

 

[dcgrumpy]

That reminds me to that English guy who messed up on the Mt. Everest. They found him like 60 years later, almost eight miles from his pants. I have to look up, where this story was, it's like twenty years ago, I read them in a book.

Peter

IIRC that also happened with the father of that family that was stranded in OR a couple of years ago. They found some of his discarded clothing days before they found his body.

 

[fred&edna]

That reminds me to that English guy who messed up on the Mt. Everest. They found him like 60 years later, almost eight miles from his pants. I have to look up, where this story was, it's like twenty years ago, I read them in a book.

Peter

They found him 8 miles from his pants, huh? Interesting. Mighty cold on Mt Everest.

PS: All this beer talk... I'll have a Heineken

 

[truthspider]

So the other missing bone is a finger? A finger from her neck, right? Where did you get that? :floorlaugh:
Seriously, I agree, the FBI had the fingers on the bones, but not the whole time. The BAU is supporting, but usually not doing the legwork. And about their profile 101 (white loner in a basement between 10 an 99 years old) one could debate. And the rest of your last post is once more pure assumption. So, please don't forget our beer bet when this is all over (if it will be over before we all die from old age).

Peter

Sorry i forget not everyone is privy to local news, it was reported in the news here that some bones from the fingers are missing too. hey did you guys hear about the native alaskan serial killer operating in mexico city? or the man that was killed by penguins in the desert? it was in the news right after the article about the african american serial killer operating on ocean parkway

 

[MrsPC]

I'm glad the thyroid vs. hyoid bone thing was cleared up. I was going to say it would be a lot stranger if they had found her *thyroid* bone, since there is no such thing, right?

I was thinking about this. Since the hyoid bone can often show evidence of strangulation...Since the GB4 had signs of strangulation and LE has said repeatedly they do not believe SG is connected to GB4....Since LE has been trying so very hard to convince everyone that SG cartwheeled out of her jeans and ditched her possessions in a pile while making her way through the bramble running from imaginary boogeymen... Who benefits from this missing hyoid bone? Perhaps not only the (possible) killer. If the hyoid is not there to show signs of murder, that sure is convenient for LE to perpetuate their "Shannan drowned" theory.

We know LE sometimes keeps info from the public, lies to bait a suspect, etc. It seems possible to me this could be the case here. So maybe the ME puts the hyoid (and whatever other bone they chose, to make it seem possible for animals to have done this) in his pocket so LE could claim "the bone wasn't present", which in a sneaky way, would be true. The question would be are they doing this to give the killer (lisk or not) a false sense of security? Or for some nefarious reason, to intentionally make a murder seem like an accident?

Whatever the case, it sure seems odd to me that this particular bone is missing. Actually, outright suspicious. I feel so very sorry for the family.

just wanted to add -- the most recent articles say the ME found no evidence of Gilbert drowning.

[ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7862897&postcount=564"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. What do you think?[/ame]


Originally, police had said they believed Gilbert had drowned in the swampy area of Oak Beach. However, the attorney says the report contains no evidence of that.

the attorney for Mari reiterated that statement in his press conference (where he also discusses the 911 tape)

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64vNIyC0a3g&feature=share"]Family wants answers after Shannan Gilbert's autopsy's ruled - YouTube[/ame]

 

[MrsPC]

So, we have --

• NO evidence of drowning
• NO evidence of Cocaine
• Missing bones from the fingers
• Missing bones from the toes
• Missing hyoid bones from the neck

on why the ME specifically looked for cocaine - I'm wondering if Brewer or Pak admitted to cocaine use that night?

 

[dc20015]

Well, they could have been smarter, especially in their search operations. That would have led to an earlier discovery of the remains and therefore better chances, to nail the COD.
But then, there is not much, that actually indicates foul play beyond the point of a drug party gone wrong. She was a borderline patient, I read here on the board months ago. She had a history of drug abuse. She was in an environment in which the drugs didn't come from her own stash.
And the undressing thing? Happens so often, there is even a term for itaradoxical Undressing. I think, it was AlaskanBlue, who posted that link first:
http://www.survivaltopics.com/paradoxical-undressing/
Interesting read.
So by all means, not much really indicating foul play. However, you are right, LE could have done more, or even better, the same, only in the right order and faster. But then, in SK cases round the World, I have studied, I saw always this first phase "egg-dance".

Peter

She was diagnosed Bipolar, not Borderline. Your arguments can still hold true for an unstable Bipolar, but I just thought that needed clarification. 2 different things.

 

[dc20015]

So, we have --

• NO evidence of drowning
• NO evidence of Cocaine
• Missing bones from the fingers
• Missing bones from the toes
• Missing hyoid bones from the neck

on why the ME specifically looked for cocaine - I'm wondering if Brewer or Pak admitted to cocaine use that night?

That or maybe family or friends or business associates told police of her using cocaine in the past.

 

[alaskanblue]

So, we have --

• NO evidence of drowning
• NO evidence of Cocaine
• Missing bones from the fingers
• Missing bones from the toes
• Missing hyoid bones from the neck

on why the ME specifically looked for cocaine - I'm wondering if Brewer or Pak admitted to cocaine use that night?

Yes, MG's attorney did say that there was no evidence of drowning, but I'm not going to rule it out completely as a cause of death. It is possible that the killer could've drowned her. If they had tested the bone marrow and no diatoms were found, then it'd be certain it wasn't a drowning death. I still find it incredibly hard to fathom that they only tested for cocaine--this is what they call a thorough autopsy?! That's absurd...I certainly hope that the Gilbert family is able to get another autopsy done that is much more detailed so they can get some answers. IIRC I don't think Brewer or Pak admitted to any coke use that night. The hyoid bones missing do point to strangulation but it's still not set in stone. I'm remaining open to various scenarios. It is possible that she fell victim to hypothermia in the marsh and did the paradoxical undressing. I do admit that she would've had to have been extremely hysterical to leave her shoes behind-that's pretty odd. But she was in a bad way. Perhaps she did drown in one of the many ditches. Or the killer caught up to her and drowned or strangled her. Maybe there was no paradoxical undressing. Then he removed her pants, shoes and other personal items and placed them back near the houses where they were found. Hopefully the presence or diatoms (or lack of) evidence will come to light after a second autopsy.

MOO

 

[hawkshaw]

MY PREDICTION: The cops are looking for a suitable dead man to pin it on. I have been wrong before.............and I have been right before.

 

[WINDSOR]

I believe based on the autopsies; the LISK and the person responsible for SG's death(if not the same person) is medically knowledgeable, and is able to leave the bodies in such a condition that the autopsy cannot provide any good clues.

In the SG case, as in the other cases, it is the things that are not present that cause confusion.

Which leads me to more questions.

1) Could the ME determine if SG's body was placed intact where it was found, and then it decomposed. Or did it decompose somewhere else and the skeletal remains were then placed in the marsh.

I tend to think that the killer had the body, accelerated decomposition, removed evidence (hyoid bone) and then placed the skeletal remains in the marsh. I believe he has developed a way of keeping the skeleton relatively intact while transporting it.

2) Could an ME tell if the decomposition down to skeletal remains was accelerated? I would think that the SK would not want to have a body around decomposing any longer than he would have to. There are chemical and other methods to get to skeletal remains quickly.

3)The more I think about it the more I believe the perpetrator of these crimes is brilliant, an ultra high achiever in certain fields of endeavor, but not recognized enough to satisfy his ego. Pulling off the 'perfect murders' gives him great satisfaction long after the fact.

4) Truthspider, being a local, can you think of anybody who might fit this description?

MOO

 

[truthspider]

I believe based on the autopsies; the LISK and the person responsible for SG's death(if not the same person) is medically knowledgeable, and is able to leave the bodies in such a condition that the autopsy cannot provide any good clues.

In the SG case, as in the other cases, it is the things that are not present that cause confusion.

Which leads me to more questions.

1) Could the ME determine if SG's body was placed intact where it was found, and then it decomposed. Or did it decompose somewhere else and the skeletal remains were then placed in the marsh.

I tend to think that the killer had the body, accelerated decomposition, removed evidence (hyoid bone) and then placed the skeletal remains in the marsh. I believe he has developed a way of keeping the skeleton relatively intact while transporting it.

2) Could an ME tell if the decomposition down to skeletal remains was accelerated? I would think that the SK would not want to have a body around decomposing any longer than he would have to. There are chemical and other methods to get to skeletal remains quickly.

3)The more I think about it the more I believe the perpetrator of these crimes is brilliant, an ultra high achiever in certain fields of endeavor, but not recognized enough to satisfy his ego. Pulling off the 'perfect murders' gives him great satisfaction long after the fact.

4) Truthspider, being a local, can you think of anybody who might fit this description?

MOO

Just when I thought everyone here was hopeless.

I've been chasing this creature around for over a year now screaming it...

 

[truthspider]

I believe based on the autopsies; the LISK and the person responsible for SG's death(if not the same person) is medically knowledgeable, and is able to leave the bodies in such a condition that the autopsy cannot provide any good clues.
I tend to think that the killer had the body, accelerated decomposition, removed evidence (hyoid bone) and then placed the skeletal remains in the marsh. I believe he has developed a way of keeping the skeleton relatively intact while transporting it.
high achiever in certain fields of endeavor, but not recognized enough to satisfy his ego. Pulling off the 'perfect murders' gives him great satisfaction long after the fact.

Congratulations Windsor, today you have earned your truth badge.
Print it out and hang it proudly on your wall

 

[Samantha Spade]

Originally Posted by Clem Snide
"For my money, I don't believe a word this clown is saying. He doesn't seem particularly bright and dresses like some kind of geriatric pimp, which is totally inappropriate considering that his clients are the family of a sex worker."

Very funny Clem, but I think this guy is way smarter than he's getting credit for. I've been sayin it from the get go - the media is the victims' families' best friend in this case. People may become desensitized to news of another serial killer stalking their communities, but they will never become desensitized to his suits and hats.

 

[LINative13]

Cops searched the arrea where SG was found in the intial search....correct? So that would mean 1 of two things. Cops missed the body or body was placed. Lets assumer body was placed after cops searched. Say body was severely decomposed. How would one place a skeleton and make it look like it was there the whole time. You would need a medical backround (or some decent knowledge of the human skelatal system) so you can put anything that moves back in the correct place if you mix it up.

It is tough for us to answer these questions though....we do not have the details of the search and all we really have for the condition of SG is a satellite like shot. And her belongings were found after the initial search....come on!!!