Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. What do you think?

Discussion in 'LISK CLOSED General Discussion Threads' started by Seaslug44, Dec 14, 2011.

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  1. Aleph

    Aleph New Member

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    Sorry for the OT but I have a question for Peter -- do you think they had the correct suspect for the Zodiac killings? The one with all of the eerie coincidences who died a while back.

    Anyone else is invited to weigh in as well, of course.
     


  2. CMan0928

    CMan0928 Former Member

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    I know you asked for Peter, but I thought I'd jump in quickly and throw out my opinion since I've looked into that case somewhat as well. You could be referring to Arthur Leigh Allen, who died in 1992. In 2002 Allen's DNA was compared to a confirmed Zodiac letter and there was no match. People who knew Allen have claimed that he had others lick his stamps and letters for him because the taste of the glue made him sick. I don't know if there's any credibility to that or not. It does seem odd, but I don't think that theory has ever had any serious weight placed on it. You could also be referring to Richard Gaikowski. He died in 2004. In my opinion, I think there's alot more evidence there that Gaikowski could have been the Zodiac over Allen. I'm not saying that Gaikowski was the Zodiac, but there are certain coincidences there that do begin to add up. From 1969-1971 Gaikowski worked as editor for a San Francisco pro-violence counterculture newspaper called Good Times. Wednesdays were known as "production days" at Good Times, where the staff worked from early morning until late at night in preparation for the upcoming issue. Between July '69 and '73, when Good Times closed it's doors, the Zodiac mailed 15 letters in total. Never was there a letter mailed on a Wednesday. Not once. Though there was one confirmed to be mailed on every other day of the week. I always found that odd. Cab driver Paul Stine was shot and killed in October '69. Stine lived on Fell Street, directly across the street from the Good Times switchboard. The sister of Paul Stine has gone on record claiming to have spotted Gaikowski at Paul's funeral. This all really proves nothing, but it could definitely be something. I'm sure you guys are aware of this as it's pretty well known information in the Zodiac circles. I like the chances of the killer being Gaikowski rather than Allen. But that's just me. It could very well be neither of them.
     
  3. CMan0928

    CMan0928 Former Member

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    Indeed, Peter. Berkowitz and the parking ticket always gives me a chuckle. Of all the things, right? Or as Rifkin would go on to say after his arrest (he would later admit that he actually heard the license plate fall off his truck while he was driving, but that he assumed it was wrench or a socket that he had left in the back) "It's always a 25 cent part."
     
  4. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    I think, CMan answered it already pretty completely. And since my focus is mostly on profiling and I never actually worked Zodiac, I would like to bow out on that question. Sorry!

    Peter
     
  5. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    Makes one think, what Admiral Nagumo┬┤s excuse was. A 25 cent piece on one of the recon planes on one of his cruisers was broke and he missed the US carriers at Midway ... You know, I think, Rifkin was right, it is ALWAYS that nasty 25 cent piece!

    Peter
     
  6. CMan0928

    CMan0928 Former Member

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    Thank you, Peter. The only reason I'm really hesitant to come out and say that I believe it was Gaikowski is based on the fact that after Paul Stine was shot on October 11, 1969 the killer reportedly fled through the Presidio, a park in northern San Fran, and down Jackson Street and was actually believed to had been stopped by two members of SFPD who were responding to the call of the shooting of Stine. They observed a white man walking along the sidewalk step onto a stairway leading to the front yard of one of the homes two blocks from the crime scene. Since the initial report from dispatch was that a black male was responsible for the shooting, the officers drove past the man without stopping. It is believed by many that man was the Zodiac. In November of '69 the Zodiac mailed a letter to the San Francisco Chronicle actually claiming to have been stopped by two police officers just minutes after he had shot Stine and when asked if he had seen anything, he replied, "Yeah. A man just ran into the Presidio." It gets hazy from there. It was later reported that the officers, Don Fouke and Eric Zelms, who claimed to had seen the suspect, did indeed stop to ask him if he had seen anything suspicious as the Zodiac had mentioned in the letter, as to which the man simply responded "no". At the time both Fouke and Zelms claimed to had never stopped to ask the man anything. I'm not sure what the final word is on that now. Eric Zelms was killed in the line of duty of January 1, 1970. After the death of Zelms, his wife claimed that her husband had told her that he and Fouke had in fact stopped the killer and spoken to him "face to face", at which time he calmly answered their questions and was then released. One thing is for certain, someone was spotted just blocks from the scene three minutes after the shooting. I personally believe the two officers stopped him and let him walk. But it wasn't really their fault. After all, they were supposed to be looking for a black male. Plus, having stopped the Zodiac and then letting him go doesn't look that good on a resume. So why admit to it? Perhaps no one would have ever known had the Zodiac himself not mentioned it in that letter. My point about Gaikowski is that when law enforcement did finally get around to questioning him in 1986 about the murders, I never heard anything about Fouke being asked to ID him as the man they had stopped and questioned that night when responding to the Stine call. Though, at that point in time they were still claiming to have not stopped the suspect at all, which is probably bogus. If Don Fouke had been shown a photo of Gaikowski and definitively recognized him as the man they had stopped and questioned on the evening of October 11, 1969, it could have possibly solved the case right then and there. Sadly, no such luck.
     
  7. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    Is this Gaikowsky some kind of high IQ underachiever, Caucasian, at the time 30-40 years old?

    Peter
     
  8. alaskanblue

    alaskanblue Member

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    Peter-imagine my surprise to see the Zodiac being discussed here! Since I grew up in the SF Bay Area, I've spent quite a bit of time on the case in the past. Yes, there's always been alot of confusion about the Fouke's sighting of Zodiac. Fouke has said he never stopped and talked to the man walking from the Stine scene, but the incident is still somewhat shrouded in mystery. Zodiac often fabricated things in his letters to heighten his feelings of superiority and power over the "stupid pigs". Here's an excellent link on it:

    http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=543

    Yes, Gaikowski was a Caucasian underachiever in his 30's IIRC, but I don't think he's the Zodiac. I think there is quite a bit of "make the suspect fit the clues and evidence" rather than the other way around. There many suspects who have many circumstantial links to being the killer. The case is quite the labyrinth...
     
  9. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    Well, I didn't start Zodiac here. I guess, it came up when he was used as an example for an SK who was never caught. I didn't look, but I assume, somewhere in all those threads in WS, we have also one for Zodiac, maybe we should move that Discussion thereto. But I admit, I have not the time to read into it right now.

    Peter
     
  10. alaskanblue

    alaskanblue Member

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    Yes, I now recall the post about the serial killers who'd never been caught-he's certainly a prime example.
     
  11. Pinkhammer

    Pinkhammer New Member

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    Rest in Peace, Shannan Gilbert.

    Two years have passed...we have not forgotten you or the other girls.

    May your families all find peace.
     
  12. Seaslug44

    Seaslug44 Active Member

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    Question for all of you who are convinced that SG was murdered-

    Two years have passed since she went missing but do you think two years have passed since she was murdered?

    Reason why I ask is that it is starting to seem too convenient that her remains were found on the side of the wetlands closest to the road that has access to the wetlands OUTSIDE of the gated community.

    Could she have been murdered elsewhere at a later date and then her remains were planted there almost a year after the searches had ended?
     
  13. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    I don't believe she was murdered. And I don't think, she was planted later because planted skeletal remains without leaving evidence for the planting is a damn hard thing to do. And of course, her remains were away from Oak Beach and near to the road. She fled from OB direction to where she guessed the nearest road. It's like she almost made it.

    Peter
     
  14. To Kill a Mockingbird

    To Kill a Mockingbird Karma Will Get LISK!!!

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    i think the police know a lot more than they have ever told the public and can NOT release information due to their investigation.

    SG did NOT arrive at JB's in a intoxicated or altered state of consciousness that we know of. That being said - she was inside his home (allegedly) for 3 hours and left screaming. We have NOT heard the 911 call - and for the life of me i have no idea if her family HAS heard the entire call - altho - her attorney - Mr. Ray alleges at his ME conference presser that he did hear the entire call.....and he said she named her driver and the john as trying to kill her.

    THAT would explain why she ran AWAY from her driver and not TO her driver.

    The family has not filed a wrongful death lawsuit against her driver, nor the john.... so BECAUSE OF THAT LACK OF LEGAL ACTION.... i am beginning to think.......it was just a freak accident. I can't believe i am even putting that in writing - because all along i've ALWAYS thougth it was a murder
    until

    Mr. Brendt has been kind and patient enough to thoroughly explain that to transport a skeleton around in the marsh - like SG was found.... is really really really hard - to keep all the bones together without TENDONS.

    So - I have to say
    I've switched to the side that says
    accidental death.

    TKM
     
  15. Jenny9

    Jenny9 New Member

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    where did you read therse no evidence???
     
  16. To Kill a Mockingbird

    To Kill a Mockingbird Karma Will Get LISK!!!

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    I ALWAYS BELIEVED SHE WAS KILLED

    I NEVER FOR ONE MINUTE BELIEVED SHE TOOK OFF HER JEANS, SHOES and threw her PURSE away and her beloved PHONE away - in a manic depressive state of mind....and decided to RUN thru thorn bramble that the coppers could not get thru so they got a amphibious vehicle with TRACKS (not even tires) to get thru...

    I NEVER BELIEVED she was running thru that bramble to a (BLANK - ity blank HUGE curse word) street light - a mile away

    give me a break!!!! there were about 70 houses BEHIND her - and cars and SUV's to hide behind and trees to hide behind and houses to hide behind.

    Shannan did NOT need to run to a reed bramble to hide. she could have very well been super quiet and hid behind a tree, car, house, garage or any other assortment of SOLID structures. There were at least 70 houses BEHIND her to run to for help - NOT a street light.

    Street lights DONT CALL POLICE - PEOPLE DO.

    and Jennie from the block is right - Mr. Brendt - the evidence from the ME has NEVER been published - so we do NOT know what was UNDER Shannan's skeletal remains that the forensic scientists have evaluated.
    we do not know what evidence was in her bones, as to, anything - other than Johnny Ray specifically stating that
    a) she DID NOT DROWN (*AHEM*)
    and
    b) SHE DID NOT HAVE COCAINE IN HER SYSTEM (*DOUBLE AHEM*)

    so - Jennie from the block is asking you - Mr. Brendt
    where did you see that there was no forensic evidence UNDER shannan's skeleton?

    thank u
    have a great night
    and safe memorial day week end sleuthers
    TKM


    :woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:
     
  17. Tugela

    Tugela Well-Known Member

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    I don't know why people think that she wouldn't have gone into the swamp. Sure, if she was rational, she wouldn't have, but there is plenty of evidence (in fact everything we know about that night points to it) that she was behaving far from rationally. She was flipping out, whether from a manic episode, or drugs, or both, that much is clear. Why is it so hard to believe that she could have run into the swamp in a deranged state and behaved there in a very abnormal manner until she died for whatever reason? (such as ODing or blacking out)

    If there is no evidence of foul play and plenty of evidence of a deranged state of mind, then the scenario of her running into the swamp and dieing is the most likely one.
     
  18. truthspider

    truthspider New Member

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    Walk down Anchor Way and look at the looming vertical hedge of thorns along the east side of the road and you will see why that is not the likely case.

    (btw, there is no "swamp")
     
  19. hawkshaw

    hawkshaw Well-Known Member

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    A detective wrote to Newsday and said he listened to the 22 minute taped call MG made to the 911 Operator. He said he heard no urgency in her voice that led him to believe she was in trouble Maybe she needed someone to talk to at 5am.
     
  20. To Kill a Mockingbird

    To Kill a Mockingbird Karma Will Get LISK!!!

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    @Hawkshaw - that letter has been talked about to no end on this site, i think you are new here.


    At any rate - the attorney Johnny Ray clearly disputes that letter - or op-ed to the newsday paper. Johnny Ray addressed it at the Presser after the Gilbert family viewed the results of the Medical Examination in Happauge.

    wishing everyone a safe and loving memorial day week end.

    :what::what::what::what::what::what::what:
     
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