Sheila and Katherine Lyon-sisters missing since 1975 - #2

[Schipperke]

Very insightful, Foureyes! Deeds and land transactions are public information! So is Corporation information--even when it involves transfer after transfer after transfer. . . the search can be exhausting as well as enlightening! How prolific are $10 house sale prices? Wasn't the purpose of the $10 sale instituted to benefit in-family transfers by not having to pay pay sales tax? Just who is taking advantage of that legal loophole? (DMV caught on really quick to such scams compared to the land transfer office which still does not seem to be aware or care.) Who should be policing the issue? When corporations sell to their own subsidiaries, is it the same as "family"? Who does incorporation really benefit? How does "Living Trust" deed ownership play into family and corporate holding of property? Still more questions than answers, with both well hidden in the politics of law!

Interesting comparison! If internal corporate subsidiary transfer can inflate property prices, what could it do to corporate structure playing with things like utility mergers? Anyone remember the movie, "The Pelican Brief"?

I also find it odd that after all the questions arising in discussions here on WS, the daughter of the as-yet-uncharged-person-of-interest would suddenly, of her own volition, bring such information to LE. The whole truth????

Foureyes may really see better than two! Thank you!

 

[foureyes]

If I remember correctly, there was a court case and a settlement reached which included a councilman and neighbors reported in Hyattsville Life and Times. Reviewing the transcript (especially if there was a trial) might be enlightening. In what world does an elected official of the city receive a financial settlement over contention with a constituent or constituents? Sounds strange, but could possibly be totally "above board." Still might be an interesting angle for Hyattsville Life and Times to pursue since it is now its reporting that is in question in some ways.

I found the difference in appearance of the property in question, from pictures first posted on WS and now, strange--with a big "What's Missing?" flashing. Wasn't there another house sitting right next to the garage --a house that is not there now? I remember wondering which house the garage belonged to when I first saw the photo, and then later the garage became part of the Willoughby house issue. More questions! The Case of the Missing House: What happened to the house at 5227? Who owned that house? When did it disappear? Who performed the demolition? Don't such projects require permits with the city or the county? Seems like the age of the area would bring into question demolition issues such as asbestos and/or other hazardous waste disposal. Who owns the property now? "et cetera, et cetera, et cetera" (The King and I).

Then there is the question of why the daughter of the as-yet-uncharged person-of-interest elected to disclose this property at this stage of the case instead of when the other searches took place. Thought occurs to me that it is much safer to make a disclosure of the residence (where she says her father never lived) after the site is believed to have been "sanitized." Why does she believe Luther needs to be investigated? If she can say from her 8-year-old memories that her father was not involved, can she say who was? Every "answered" issue seems to beget more questions--the most important of which is: Are they leading to the answer of what happened to the girls or away from finding it?

Hyattsville Life and Times, how about some unbiased investigative reporting. . . since your previous reporting now has some question marks attached to it. All most people want is the WHOLE TRUTH!

http://hyattsville.org/DocumentCenter/View/2337

 

[crcurrie]

I found the difference in appearance of the property in question, from pictures first posted on WS and now, strange--with a big "What's Missing?" flashing. Wasn't there another house sitting right next to the garage --a house that is not there now? I remember wondering which house the garage belonged to when I first saw the photo, and then later the garage became part of the Willoughby house issue. More questions! The Case of the Missing House: What happened to the house at 5227? Who owned that house? When did it disappear? Who performed the demolition? Don't such projects require permits with the city or the county? Seems like the age of the area would bring into question demolition issues such as asbestos and/or other hazardous waste disposal. Who owns the property now? "et cetera, et cetera, et cetera" (The King and I).

Then there is the question of why the daughter of the as-yet-uncharged person-of-interest elected to disclose this property at this stage of the case instead of when the other searches took place. Thought occurs to me that it is much safer to make a disclosure of the residence (where she says her father never lived) after the site is believed to have been "sanitized." Why does she believe Luther needs to be investigated? If she can say from her 8-year-old memories that her father was not involved, can she say who was? Every "answered" issue seems to beget more questions--the most important of which is: Are they leading to the answer of what happened to the girls or away from finding it?

Hyattsville Life and Times, how about some unbiased investigative reporting. . . since your previous reporting now has some question marks attached to it. All most people want is the WHOLE TRUTH!

The house at 5227 42nd Place was foreclosed upon and eventually condemned by the City of Hyattsville, which ordered the bank to have it demolished because it was beyond repair. I think the lot is still owned by the bank.

I find it hard to believe that it was Richard and Pat Welch's daughter who led LE to the Willoughby property, since that property first came into the spotlight when LLW Jr. mentioned it in his statement to investigators. I think it's more likely that the Welches cooperated with a request from LE to escort them in a search of the property, since they lived there previously (contrary to the daughter's statement).

Why do you think the Life and Times' reporting is biased?

 

[siriunsun]

This just posted today by the Hyattsville Life & Times, which has been following the Hyattsville angles of this case for the past couple years:

http://hyattsvillelife.com/willoughby-property-searched-in-connection-with-lyon-sisters-cold-case/

It's interesting that Dick Welch's daughter says their family never lived at the property, but the Life & Times cites neighborhood sources claiming they did.

Is it possible that she might have been too young to remember living there with her parents, at the time?

 

[Schipperke]

A: Although neighborhood sources identify the Willoughby House as a former residence of Richard Welch and his family, Patricia Ann Welch, Richard Welch’s daughter, who was 8 years old in 1975, maintains that her family never lived at 5229 42nd Place. She reported that her grandmother, Gladys Welch, and her father’s brother, Luther Welch, lived on the property and that Luther Welch’s name “needs to be put out there.”
Patricia Ann Welch voluntarily took the police to the Willoughby property on June 30. She regularly speaks on behalf of her parents and meets with detectives “two to three times a month.” Welch said that she brought the police to the house in order to be candid and cooperative." “They didn’t even know about the house until I told them about it. I’ve been helping them. I don’t understand why people won’t put it out there that we’ve been helping them. All they want to put out there is bad stuff,” she said. . . AND B: Lloyd Lee Welch failed a polygraph test, but was ruled out as a person of interest until the case reopened in 2013. Hyattsville Life and Times. Friday, August 26, 2016


I don't know about everyone else, but I can remember where I lived before I was 8 years old.

But, if she didn't remember living there, what was it that made her suddenly able to remember and tell LE about the location after all this time--especially AFTER the house next door has been razed and removed? I agree with Crcurrie to a point: Did LE really not know about the location? If she has some knowledge of her uncle's involvement, why just hint? See A above

It is hard to say positive things about something that still leaves you full of unanswered questions. That is true not only of Patty, but of Willoughby as well. He settled with the City Council member and neighbors, and according to reports posted here on WS, he left the property in poor condition and vacant for quite a while longer. Just what was the settlement that could have bought time and perhaps lots of activity next door? Is there anything else significant in the Lyon case and Welch Family that happened about the same time the razing contract was let by the City in the 2013 time frame? Wouldn't that have been just about the same time as LLW2 was coming to the attention of LE as a suspect? See B above. And again, just how did that happen? Oh yeah, it followed some other children in southern Maryland, a court case, and a prison sentence for molestation, but not by LLW2, he was already in prison in Delaware, but he had pertinent information to both cases. How quickly we forget the "dot connections."

 

[crcurrie]

Is it possible that she might have been too young to remember living there with her parents, at the time?

Yes, that's quite possible. If they lived there *before* she was eight years old -- in other words, before the events of 1975 -- she might not have remembered residency there (or might not even have been born yet). However, her parents certainly would have remembered, and no doubt that fact would have come up in family conversation -- particularly if the daughter was meeting investigators at the property.

From what I have heard, Dick and Pat Welch lived at the Willoughby house first, on the first floor, then Dick's mother and brother, Luke (nicknamed "Shorty"), moved into the second floor unit, then Dick's family moved out and the mother and brother continued to live upstairs for additional years.

 

[Schipperke]

So the property is divided into multiple rental units instead of single family use. Interesting! Might also be interesting to know who some of the other tennants, especially in 1974-75 (Eileen Kelly and Lyon sisters case times) were. We know from previous WS posts this is a huge extended family. Drawing images of a "Taylors Mountain" Bedford in Hyattsville, Brentwood, Mount Rainier, Riverdale, etc.

 

[Schipperke]

Yes, that's quite possible. If they lived there *before* she was eight years old -- in other words, before the events of 1975 -- she might not have remembered residency there (or might not even have been born yet). However, her parents certainly would have remembered, and no doubt that fact would have come up in family conversation -- particularly if the daughter was meeting investigators at the property.

From what I have heard, Dick and Pat Welch lived at the Willoughby house first, on the first floor, then Dick's mother and brother, Luke (nicknamed "Shorty"), moved into the second floor unit, then Dick's family moved out and the mother and brother continued to live upstairs for additional years.

Crcurrie, Interesting response above. Looking back through WS, it appears that it was your informational reference to newspaper, Hyattsville Life &Times, that identified RAW's residence in 1975 as 5229 42nd Place and the daughter identified her age as 8. What are you saying about HL&T reporting?

Is this a newspaper or a City Municipal information distributor? Does the City fully-fund or pay the newspaper to publish? Could be another interesting connection. Are you personally connected to the HL&T content?

I am always amazed at how easily we (human people) "take things for granite" when they may actually be "compressed sand." Come to think of it, isn't that what science says a diamond is? Amazing the things we think we know, but don't, and how easily we can be confused, used, and/or led. Obie Wan Kenobi again--"Who's the bigger fool--the fool or the fool who follows the fool?"

 

[foureyes]

HL&T is a well received local paper that does offer fair and unbiased reporting by writers of merit, IMO, including an interview with Patricia A.Welch and her viewpoint.

"The city pays us to advertise. The city does not pay for editorial content. This newspaper is not an arm of the City Council. We do not skew news to favor anyone. We report the facts.... A free press ensures accuracy. A free press reports the facts and allows you to make decisions based on these facts. Truth and accuracy, independence, fairness and impartiality, accountability: these are the founding principles of journalism. Having an unbiased, impartial news source benefits the community it serves."

http://hyattsvillelife.com/my-two-cents-when-the-press-becomes-the-news/

 

[Schipperke]

At that council meeting, the contract renewal almost did not pass. Not because council members were concerned about the cost of the contract or the amount of page space received, but because a few raised concerns about the paper’s editorial content.
That should concern you.
At the meeting, Councilmember Joseph Solomon (Ward 5) implied that the newspaper should cater its editorials and coverage towards members of the council if the HL&T wishes to retain its contract. Solomon used the perennial opposition of Councilmembers Paula Perry (Ward 4) and Ruth Ann Frazier (Ward 5) to the city’s contract with the paper to raise the issue. Mayor Candace Hollingsworth and Councilmember Bart Lawrence (Ward 1) quickly noted that such a demand would be unconstitutional.
Hyattsville City Council, August 12, 2016 http://hyattsvillelife.com/my-two-cents-when-the-press-becomes-the-news/



Hooray for facing the issue head on! OKAY, HL&T! Now, in light of recent claims, what are the true facts! They could be very important. Congratulations, Krissi Humbard and T. Carter Ross! Excellent reporting! (BTW, I am not easily impressed!)

First, was RAW living there in 1975 or not, as previously reported in HL&T? What are the details involving the settlement worked out by the owner of the house and a councilman a few years back? THE HOUSE (5229) is now considered a possible murder site. On the razing of the house next door to it, which coincidentally took place during the same time frame as LLW2 began to "spill the beans," who got the razing contract for the house next door? Where was the debris dumped? Probably not important to this case, but still of interest to the public nonetheless because of the age of the structure and the City awarding the contract-- was the site examined for hazardous waste? Incidentally, why didn't the owner handle the razing instead of the city? Who paid the final costs, all of them, the owner or the taxpayer?

Foureyes, I hope your faith in HL&T is well-founded!

 

[crcurrie]

First, was RAW living there in 1975 or not, as previously reported in HL&T?

I don't think we can determine at this point whether RAW was living in the house in 1975. The best evidence is that he was there in the late '60s, and that he and his wife moved out prior to the time his mother and brother moved out of the upstairs unit.

There is compelling evidence that Granny and Shorty were still living upstairs at the time of the Lyon abductions. Even if RAW wasn't there at that time, the fact that family still lived there meant that it was possible that he could have gotten access to the garage.

It's important to note that Montgomery Co. Police told the HL&T that no evidence was recovered from the garage.

Regarding your previous question, I'm on the board of the non-profit organization that publishes the Life & Times, but I'm not a member of the editorial staff.

 

[Schipperke]

Crcurrie, Thank you for your response. What about the other information on the razing of the house. Will HL&T follow up now that the questions have been raised. They are appropriate questions in light of information HL&T put forward regarding this property. The answers to these questions could benefit the defense or the prosecution depending on what the truthful answers are; it is not a bias.

With regard to the Montgomery County police, when you spoke to them, did you make them aware of the fact that there was another house adjacent to the garage which was razed by the city AFTER Lloyd Welch and RAW became persons of interest in the Lyon case? If RAW daughter waited this long to identify the house, did she enlighten them about the house that has gone missing since LLW began to "spill the beans"? (No comment, no bias) Do they even have that information right now? Maybe it all depends on whether or not they read WS or how fast their "Tip Line" gets checked.

The previous article in HL&T created a furor of questions and comments in WS. It identified RAW as a resident of this house in 1975 (when the girls disappeared) , along with the legal actions and an undisclosed settlement involving some neighbors and a City Councilman (acting as an elected official) fighting a legal battle with the property owner over city code violations. Even if the neighbors settlement could be considered private, should the settlement accepted by the City Councilman be held in the same light? It is news, Crcurrie; all of it is possibly related to the disappearance of these two girls. Even your response above acknowledges that--regardless of whether it was RAW or someone else. HL&T named the site; how about clearing up some other possibly associated actions brought to light in HL&T about conditions at this property which is NOW associated (right or wrong) with Welch family habitation at the time of the abduction.

What are the details involving the settlement worked out by the owner of the house and a councilman a few years back? THE HOUSE (5229) is now considered a possible murder site (possibly because of reporting of HL&T? Even you doubted RAW daughter's story).

On the razing of the house next door to it, which coincidentally took place during the same time frame as LLW2 began to "spill the beans," who got the razing contract for the house next door? (If the missing house was disclosed to Montgomery County police, was the interesting timing of the action?)

Where was the debris dumped? Probably not important to this case, but still of interest to the public nonetheless because of the age of the structure and the City awarding the contract-- was the site examined for hazardous waste? Incidentally, why didn't the owner handle the razing instead of the city?

Who paid the final costs, all of them, the owner or the taxpayer?

Just asking for investigative reporting and transparency based on your continued identification (and reporting of RAW daughter's allegation that her deceased uncle should be investigated in order to give fairness to her father) of the site as a murder scene possibility. Hyattsville Life and Times 1975 and now!

Don't you owe that much to your readers?

 

[foureyes]

5229 42nd Pl- On Dec 18 2015 your email to myself said the City of Hyattsville police assured you the " 5229 Pl house and property had been searched". Searched again in July according to HL&T.
5227 42nd Pl -RAZING AND REMOVAL SERVICES , SUBJECT SITE: 5227 42nd Pl

On October 23, 2012 City of Hyattsville Official declared home to be unfit for human habitation. RFP ISSUE DATE: September 3, 2013 Proposal Opening October 17, 2013 etc. previously posted link

compare to

"On July 14 2014 detectives with the Montegomery County Police interviewed Lloyd Welch again"… "He informed the writer all left the mall together and got into Richard Welch's station wagon and returned to Richard Welch's residence in Hyattsville, Maryland. The next day Lloyd went back to the residence and witnessed Richard Welch engaging . . ."

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/wset/SKMBT_60115071517110.pdf

If a person tends to treat situations as more serious or exciting than they really are, the major question gets lost. The question: Did Richard and Patricia Welch live there? The daughter says no, absolutely not. The local library has a residential phone directory listing for 1975 in the Maryland Suburban. Richard Welch worked as a guard , and also at the bakery; both have employment records, Dick had a family to feed and he sure did a good job there. Old addresses show up on payrolls, W2's, DMV records, government repositories, bank records, credit companies, taxes, as well as higher level databases - TMO etc. Even for finding and relocating "neighborhood sources" who talked to the newspaper back then.. Addresses can be found. Why not ask that person who informed you "Stacy Welch died" this question; When and where did Shorty live in Hyattsville, why did he die? An answer more interesting than a teardown, I'll wager.

 

[Schipperke]

Again, Foureyes, you and I agree on some major points. I will second your list of questions as well. Like I said before, some questions get answers, some only beget other questions. When you only get more questions, it is time to be wary.

Interesting finds on names and dates:


http://hyattsvillelife.com/tag/hyattsville-city-council/page/6/

HL&T From the Editor: What drives decisions?

December 15, 2013


BY SUSIE CURRIE — In recent months, the Hyattsville City Council has spent hours discussing such issues . . .

http://www.hyattsville.org/Archive/ViewFile/Item/317

2005 Mayor Bill Gardiner called the meeting of the Council to order at 7:34 p.m. at the Municipal Building, 4310 Gallatin Street, Hyattsville, Maryland. Present were Mayor Bill Gardiner, Council Vice President Paula Perry, and Council Members, Douglas Dudrow, Scott Wilson, Christopher Currie (7:45 p.m.), Mary Elwood, and Carlos Lizanne. Council President Stuart Eisenberg, and Council Members, Jon Lewis, and Scott Wythe were absent Also present were City Administrator Murphy, Chief of Police Holland, Director of Public Works Henry, Director of Recreation and Parks Hager, City Treasurer Oliphant, City Attorney Colaresi, and City Clerk Barber.



Did your response on post 632 above omit some other possibly pertinent information? "Regarding your previous question, I'm on the board of the non-profit organization that publishes the Life & Times, but I'm not a member of the editorial staff." (Bolding enhancement added) Wasn't Councilman Dudrow the one who was involved in the settlement with the property owner of 5229?

Thank you again, Foureyes. Hmmmm, now, the question list grows . . .

Just when did the investigation into the molestation of the southern Maryland boys begin?

Are there any "possible" connections to this strange saga of the Welch Family or any extended connections to other circumstances, the City Council, or the HL&T?

Was LLW2 ever asked about Luther "Shorty" or anyone else being connected? (Not that it would make any answer received truthful, but it could open doors for further exploration)

Even for finding and relocating "neighborhood sources" who talked to the newspaper back then.. Addresses can be found. Why not ask that person who informed you "Stacy Welch died" this question; When and where did Shorty live in Hyattsville, why did he die? (Courtesy of Foureyes)

What are the details involving the settlement worked out by the owner of the house and a councilman a few years back? THE HOUSE (5229) is now considered a possible murder site (possibly because of reporting of HL&T? Even you doubted RAW daughter's story).

On the razing of the house next door to it, which coincidentally took place during the same time frame as LLW2 began to "spill the beans," who got the razing contract for the house next door? (If the missing house was disclosed to Montgomery County police, was the interesting timing of the action?)

Where was the debris dumped? Probably not important to this case, but still of interest to the public nonetheless because of the age of the structure and the City awarding the contract-- was the site examined for hazardous waste? Incidentally, why didn't the owner handle the razing instead of the city?

Who paid the final costs, all of them, the owner or the taxpayer?

Just asking for investigative reporting and COMPLETE transparency based on your continued identification (and reporting of RAW daughter's allegation that her deceased uncle should be investigated in order to give fairness to her father) of the site as a murder scene possibility. Hyattsville Life and Times 1975 and now!

Sometimes things can appear to change over time and yet stay the same in reality! At the same time, from the motion picture industry we have learned that , "Art can imitate life, or life can imitate art." Remember the slogan of the old tv game show, You Don't Say, "It's not what you say that counts, it's what you don' say." If you read enough pages in WS, is there really a connecting pattern which has developed over scores of years in time? Everything in life has learning experiences attached, but they are only useful if you recognize them for what they are.

 

[foureyes]

I do not agree ! My previous post shows 5227 42 Pl was slated for demolition way BEFORE the sketch was matched to the mugshot , before the press release of Feb 11, 2014.

Any "possible" connections to this strange saga of the Welch Family or any extended connections to other circumstances, the City Council, or the HL&T
simply do not exist. I have learned many things about Eileen Kelly's case from this poster. His posts has contributed much info to the Eileen Kelly thread and there is a difference between "challenging" and being accusatory. He doesn't hide behind a screen name, only to be taken advantage of.

 

[Schipperke]

I agree with the importance of your questions. You are certainly right, we do not agree on everything.

My posts ask questions that deserve answers. There may be some very valid acceptable reasons for what has happened, but at this point, they are no longer "personal" in my opinion. In a situation like this, actions of an elected official or officials as well as persons affiliated with newspapers should be open for public scrutiny on issues related, even remotely associated, with a crime. In this case, I am asking specific people who put out information to clarify information they voluntarily offered to the public.

Would we be having the issues we have today in government as a whole, if the basic hard questions were asked in the beginning? You can disagree with my methods (or anything else for that matter), but I think the public is entitled to answers when government and news media issues cross paths with crimes and illegal activity. The question is about a published newspaper report-to-the-public which is now in question. In all likelihood, this news story prompted taxpayer expense in searching this property, which Crcurrie and RAW's daughter both believe is connected but perhaps for different reasons. This case is 40+ years old, and things have taken place since 1975, and indeed since 2013 which COULD be relevant. I think it is high-time the "hard" questions are asked and answered with the truth. Finding the truth should not cause insult to the innocent. What I don't understand is why people object to answering questions about such things if they have nothing to hide. Investigative reporting -- it brought down Watergate!

LE has said from the very beginning that people-in-the-know are not cooperating to find the solution. I am not in-the-know; "protecting" is not an issue for me. My goal is to "dig" for the facts to bring the guilty to justice by asking the questions which occur to me with the information provided to the public. There is no bias on my end toward anyone. I ask (offer?) the hard questions of everyone because I am not dealing with "friends" or relatives, and I have perspective from 1975 as well as public offering today.

 

[foureyes]

Please publicly offer who the "friends" or relatives may possibly be. Perhaps, in my case, I do have a biased point of view which blocks a clear perspective of what is going on. Who can
I reach out to as far as "friends or relatives, in order to progress this case, This is my motivation.

 

[Schipperke]

Foureyes, I don't know who all the friends or relatives might be, and certainly not every one of them has a "public status."

It has been clear to me from the very start that you have some inside connection. You know who and what your connections are, I do not. I am trying to follow the connections I do find, not control them in any way. Your defensive interference of what you perceived as "accusation," has drawn attention away from the challenge to HL&T to help by getting public answers to questions--both yours and mine.

Your comment is interesting:

"Perhaps, in my case, I do have a biased point of view which blocks a clear perspective of what is going on. Who can
I reach out to as far as "friends or relatives, in order to progress this case, This is my motivation."

Looks like part of a thought may have been deleted. If you do have a bias, it may be difficult to see a difference in the words "progress" and "control."

 

[Schipperke]

http://www.kcrg.com/content/news/At...d-in-Shell-Rock-Thursday-night-389259892.html

This is current time happening in Iowa. Not related to this case that I know of, but thought I would share it with you. Sometimes dealing with cold cases, you tend to think of child abduction as history.

 

[foureyes]

Great summary of the Lyon Sisters Case!

https://issuu.com/johnyodisho/docs/helenakatz_cold_cases_famous_unsolv

pages 288 - 293